This is exactly what the founding fathers tried to get away from.
You're ignorant if you believe that it's not going to lead to any of what I just said.
I said not directly. That means indirectly. Which means the government isn't pushing for it, but it's going to be a possible side effect of what they do.
People view the government as something big. Another day made up by religion is just going to be another day made up by religion.
You have to look at it from the peoples point of view, not at what it really is. To them, the government is this big law making body that arrest people and says what's right and what's wrong. Despite the reality that the people are the government.
When this big law making entity, that tells you what you can and can't do, suddenly decides to make a holiday, it's serious business.
It's going to be taken a lot more serious than just another religious holiday.
Example for you:
Ya know that popular girl at school? The one with the latest fashion? Well even though she doesn't say so and even though she may not mean it, everyone eventually copies her fashion style, don't they?
Indirect effect of something you do. You're saying that things can't happen indirectly. That just because someone isn't pushing for it, it isn't going to happen.
[QUOTE=LCBADs;21553675]It actually IS supporting religion. This day exists to support prayer, a common fixture of relgion.[/quote]
That's just an action associated with religion, not religion itself. I could still pray and not be religious. I might pray to the sun or to a mountain or to a wall. And yet again, I probably wouldn't pray at all, regardless of what the day would suggest.
[QUOTE=gnome;21553865]That's just an action associated with religion, not religion itself. I could still pray and not be religious. I might pray to the sun or to a mountain or to a wall. And yet again, I probably wouldn't pray at all, regardless of what the day would suggest.[/QUOTE]
Um, if you pray you're acknowledging a greater power.
If you see the sun or a mountain or a wall as a greater power than that's your freedom to do so.
Yet initiating a day of prayer means that the government recognizes a high power, which it can't.
Because that's unconstitutional.
Prayer = Religious
[editline]03:42PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;21552599]Well, I'm looking at it from a different perspective.
[I]Why[/I] would you care about secularism? It's not a big or important topic. Rather, the more common reason is that they're mad because they're atheistic.[/QUOTE]
Hey, when they say White House they're referring to the USA, where secularism is important.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;21552599]This holiday is not imposing religion, it's not supporting religion, it's just giving religion some credit with a holiday. I agree, religion shouldn't be forced, but this has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]
Um, when you create a holiday about prayer, a religious action, you're supporting a religion.
That's pretty fucking dangerous in a Western Culture.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;21552599]The only reason people spout of "separation of church and state" when they see this holiday is because they're butthurt atheists, you know why? Because this holiday has nothing to do with joining church and state or abolishing secularism in any way.[/QUOTE]
Prayer = Religious.
When you acknowledge prayer you acknowledge religion, which defies separation of church and state. Supporting theocracy is fine, but the moment it happens in America you bet your ass anyone who knows anything about the framer's intentions should fight it.
[editline]03:43PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=gnome;21553783]That's just the "law" that means that this day exists. But I mean there's no action-associated law that requires you to do something on this day.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't fucking matter, the government is sticking its noes into something it shouldn't.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;21553814]You're ignorant if you believe that it's not going to lead to any of what I just said.[/quote]
If you want to just insult me when you run out of things to say, all right then, I'll jump aboard.
Fagballs McGee
[quote]
I said not directly. That means indirectly. Which means the government isn't pushing for it, but it's going to be a possible side effect of what they do.[/quote]
That's a POSSIBLE but unlikely side effect, and it doesn't at all mean that anything is going to happen because of it. There's also the possibility that Christmas could make me feel impugned because of all the holiday hype and I'll convert to Christianity. Again, the only difference as previously established by JDK is the distinction between a federal and national holiday. To which there really isn't any.
[quote]
People view the government as something big. Another day made up by religion is just going to be another day made up by religion.[/quote]
?
[quote]You have to look at it from the peoples point of view, not at what it really is.[/quote]
First of all, I am a person and part of the populace (the atheist part, at that), and second of all, what? I'm supposed to look at it from millions of speculative points of views but not at the actual situation itself from an indifferent perspective? Are you deliberately telling me to ignore something after calling me ignorant as a point of humor?
[quote] To them, the government is this big law making body that arrest people and says what's right and what's wrong. Despite the reality that the people are the government.[/quote]
This isn't necessarily valid. People have a say in what happens with the government, but they aren't the government and people under the impression that you're implying are probably somewhat correct.
[quote]When this big law making entity, that tells you what you can and can't do, suddenly decides to make a holiday, it's serious business.
It's going to be taken a lot more serious than just another religious holiday.[/QUOTE]
No. No it's not serious business. Holidays are celebratory events that may or may not be participated in depending on the individual, not a dictatorial troop rally that tells you what to believe in.
[QUOTE=Gummylamb;21553707]How are you guys even arguing about this? Do you honestly believe that just because it doesn't favor any specific religion it is fine? It isn't, the USA isn't supposed to adhere to any religions or beliefs, this may not adhere to a specific religion, but it adheres to RELIGIONS in general, which is still against the constitution.[/QUOTE]
This bro knows his stuff.
Favoring a day of prayer is favoring religious over nonreligious.
To the guy above me, the negative effects of a government sponsoring something as small as a day of prayer is the fact it fuels people who would like America to stray away from secularism. It's legal precedent.
[QUOTE=Billiam;21554002]Um, if you pray you're acknowledging a greater power.
If you see the sun or a mountain or a wall as a greater power than that's your freedom to do so.[/quote]
Yet initiating a day of prayer means that the government recognizes a high power, which it can't.
Because that's unconstitutional.[/quote]
They aren't acknowledging the existence of any greater power though, they're acknowledging the existence of people who believe in one.
[quote]
Prayer = Religious[/quote]
All right. But they're not telling anyone to pray and they're not telling anyone what to pray to.
[quote]Um, when you create a holiday about prayer, a religious action, you're supporting a religion.[/quote]
You're not supporting [b]A[/b] religion, you're supporting people of many religions who want to celebrate together. If anything it sounds like this would unify people of different religious beliefs. And no, not under Christianity or Catholicism but under prayer.
[quote]
That doesn't fucking matter, the government is sticking its noes into something it shouldn't.[/QUOTE]
It's not sticking its nose anywhere, it's offering a day of rejoicement for people of any faith.
[editline]12:50PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Billiam;21554179]This bro knows his stuff.
Favoring a day of prayer is favoring religious over nonreligious.
To the guy above me, the negative effects of a government sponsoring something as small as a day of prayer is the fact it fuels people who would like America to stray away from secularism. It's legal precedent.[/QUOTE]
Hardly. What you're all leaning towards is that the government will eventually rule that you can't be an atheist but you can be of any religion. Like that's going to happen, lol
Usually religious take-overs come in the form of one religion, not religions by the masses.
[QUOTE=gnome;21554269]They aren't acknowledging the existence of any greater power though, they're acknowledging the existence of people who believe in one.[/QUOTE]
It's a National Day of Prayer.
They are sponsoring prayer, which is sponsoring religion.
[QUOTE=gnome;21554269]All right. But they're not telling anyone to pray and they're not telling anyone what to pray to.[/QUOTE]
So? They're still supporting prayer.
[QUOTE=gnome;21554269]You're not supporting [B]A[/B] religion, you're supporting people of many religions who want to celebrate together. If anything it sounds like this would unify people of different religious beliefs. And no, not under Christianity or Catholicism but under prayer.[/QUOTE]
Okay, you're sponsoring multiple religions.
That doesn't make it any better as it still defies secularism.
[QUOTE=gnome;21554269]It's not sticking its nose anywhere, it's offering a day of rejoicement for people of any faith.[/QUOTE]
Uh, yeah it is. When you sponsor prayer you're sticking your nose into the issue of religion and high power and theism, which they shouldn't because they're the fucking government.
[QUOTE=gnome;21554269]Hardly. What you're all leaning towards is that the government will eventually rule that you can't be an atheist but you can be of any religion. Like that's going to happen, lol
Usually religious take-overs come in the form of one religion, not religions by the masses.[/QUOTE]
Did I say that? No I fucking didn't.
But when your government supports a an entire day dedicated to a religious practice then that makes it a little bit easier for religious groups and people to mix with the government. That's bad.
[editline]04:01PM[/editline]
Honestly, if you really are suggesting that the government sponsoring a day of prayer isn't sponsoring religion then you either don't know what prayer is or what religion is.
[QUOTE=gnome;21550253]It doesn't say anywhere "pray or be arrested", I don't really get where you're coming from with 'unconstitutional'. I'm not religious in any sense but I don't see what this would affect, it's just a name for a national day. What about Christmas? That's a religious holiday but even non-religious people celebrate it. Since the country largely endorses the holidays, should we consider it unconstitutional as well?
I mean I don't get the point of it either, but it's not going to do anything bad.[/QUOTE]
Separation of church and state goes over your head, doesn't it?
Make it a national day of reflection and remembrance, and people won't bitch about it.
People may say that this holiday isn't endorsing any one religion, but it is definitely endorsing religions where prayer plays a big role. How would people respond if it was a national day of honoring lost prophets?
[QUOTE=JDK721;21550625]It doesn't matter if it doesn't back one specific religion. Also, Christmas isn't a national holiday.[/QUOTE]
So you have to work on Christmas?
D:
This doesn't fucking matter. A Judge ruled it unconstitutional you fucking idiots. It's therefore [b]UNFUCKINGCONSTITUTIONAL[/b]and should not be surported. Now the constitution can be over-ridden for whatever reason if it's deemed fit because of this. This is so fucking wrong, and it really doesn't matter if it's back any religion. It's not about which one it backs, it backs religiousness itself, promoting a belief in anything to be better than an atheistic view.
But obviously, if we care about this, we're butthurt atheists. Fucking idiots.
[QUOTE=JDK721;21528601]Stop it. It's unconstitutional and thus does not belong in this country.[/QUOTE]
just like gun control, censorship, political correctness and religious discrimination
o those are ok? o ya nvm bro
[QUOTE=Idi Amin;21562390]just like gun control, censorship, political correctness and religious discrimination
o those are ok? o ya nvm bro[/QUOTE]
None of that is in the fucking constitution. Gun control doesn't stop people from having guns, it's not unconstitutional, it's a debateable issue. Political correctness is bullshit, yes, but is it unconstitutional? No. Religious discrimination doesn't occur as a state sanctioned event. If anything, religious discrimination happens towards those of a non-faith perspective.
Things like this are specifically illegal, you can call it a day of silence but not a day of prayer, you're not supposed to put religion above non-religion.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21562413]None of that is in the fucking constitution. Gun control doesn't stop people from having guns, it's not unconstitutional, it's a debateable issue. Political correctness is bullshit, yes, but is it unconstitutional? No. Religious discrimination doesn't occur as a state sanctioned event. If anything, religious discrimination happens towards those of a non-faith perspective.[/QUOTE]
if one amendment which guarantee rights for citizens is debatable then so are the rest. In that case, by your logic, this national day of prayer is green lighted to go.
Hey guys, were not going to execute you for not recognizing it. Stop being sore assholes.
I am not sure why this whole thing has turned into such a lengthy conundrum. Religion usually has irrational and often hostile nature, this act promotes such a force by creating this dedicated day, which displays the government supporting irrationality and hostility. Religion also promotes faith, which is a process of non-thinking.
if the current American government even remotely loosens its already relatively rather loose grip on religion, it will again start doing messed up crap like the Renaissance never happened. A perfect example of what it could start doing can be located in quite a few areas in the Middle East. Christianity is no better then Islam, it just has a better leash at the moment.
Even now it is extremely far from being innocent, I am not going to list the reasons because most of you are already aware of them.
[QUOTE=OutOfExile;21562414]Things like this are specifically illegal, you can call it a day of silence but not a day of prayer, you're not supposed to put religion above non-religion.[/QUOTE]
Exactly that, except I like to be slightly more wordy.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551076]They're not recognizing any one religion though, it may as well be national meditation day.
Again, I acknowledge that there's no real benefit of it, but getting all flustered over it is completely pointless because this day isn't going to change anything. It won't affect anything and it's not going to be a gateway to religious legislations.[/QUOTE]
state sponsored religion. What's so hard to realize about this?
[editline]03:56AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zambies!;21562618]Hey guys, were not going to execute you for not recognizing it. Stop being sore assholes.[/QUOTE]
you don't understand anything about the constitution.
[QUOTE=Idi Amin;21562599]if one amendment which guarantee rights for citizens is debatable then so are the rest. In that case, by your logic, this national day of prayer is green lighted to go.[/QUOTE]
Except not at all. It's debateable what degree that right goes to. It is not a debate as to whether it applies.
[QUOTE=smurfy;21528568]Fuckin' why? This doesn't seem like something they would support.[/QUOTE]
It's most likely political in nature, trying to placate the roiling masses of Fundies.
Watch it backfire and the Fundies start [I]opposing [/I]something they would have supported any other day solely because Obama is supporting it as well.
Well if you believe in quantum physics a day of concentrated positive thought could do wonders for the nation.
[QUOTE=Idi Amin;21562390]just like gun control, censorship, political correctness and religious discrimination
o those are ok? o ya nvm bro[/QUOTE]
I saw the last king of scotland last week, good movie
I say a "National Day of Throwing Away Your Guns" be instituted to troll back at the conservatives.
[QUOTE=gnome;21550487]Right, and as it's been said, this "national day of prayer" doesn't back any one religion.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but my argument applies just as well to countries with different religions as well as relgious vs. non-religious countries. The latter split is what I'm talking about.
I love threads full of broad generalizations and lengthy religious debates. Like fuckin' clockwork. I could set my watch by this shit.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;21552599]Well, I'm looking at it from a different perspective.
[I]Why[/I] would you care about secularism? It's not a big or important topic.[/quote]
Are you fucking kidding me?
Keeping religion and the government separate and neutral [i]isn't big or important?[/i]
Fucking hell.
Jesus fuck why are you people getting pissed off at a day that has nothing to do with you. If somebody else wants to pray, let them, you intolerant cocks.
[QUOTE=ProboardslolV2;21585554]Jesus fuck why are you people getting pissed off at a day that has nothing to do with you. If somebody else wants to pray, let them, you intolerant cocks.[/QUOTE]
They can pray anyday (especially fridays, saturdays and sundays), why would they need to make a special national day just for it? National Prayer Day is a direct indication that the american government supports religion. Now you might say that there is religious freedom in the US, and that is correct. The point is that it is written in the constitution that the american government can not at any point favour one religion over another, which in this special case would be ALL RELIGIONS.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;21552599][I]Why[/I] would you care about secularism? It's not a big or important topic. Rather, the more common reason is that they're mad because they're atheistic.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you are a fucking retard. Stay in Britain and never discuss politics again.
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