They're not recognizing any one religion though, it may as well be national meditation day.
Again, I acknowledge that there's no real benefit of it, but getting all flustered over it is completely pointless because this day isn't going to change anything. It won't affect anything and it's not going to be a gateway to religious legislations.
Actually, I reject my previous statement. A day of prayer by the government would be the government advertising religions who have this day.
Not only that, but they would be advertising religion.
Just more religion pushing itself on other people.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551076]They're not recognizing any one religion though, it may as well be national meditation day.
Again, I acknowledge that there's no real benefit of it, but getting all flustered over it is completely pointless because this day isn't going to change anything.[/QUOTE]
If Christians have their day of prayer on this day, but the Islamic faith doesn't, then,
Christianity advertisment +1
Islam advertisment +0
Why is this bad? Because it's a government that has declared itself to be a place of freedom of religion, advertising religions, but also religions over other religions.
[QUOTE=wulfe8857;21551187]So what I'm hearing is the White House is fighting for a Christian holiday.
...So it's a holiday.
Do you celebrate Hanukkah? Christmas? Kwanzaa? Do you celebrate all three? I know I don't. So there's nothing saying I have to celebrate a new one.[/QUOTE]
But it's the government advertising a religion over another, which disrespects all other faiths. It's wrong.
So what I'm hearing is the White House is fighting for a Christian holiday.
...So it's a holiday.
Do you celebrate Hanukkah? Christmas? Kwanzaa? Do you celebrate all three? I know I don't. So there's nothing saying I have to celebrate a new one.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;21551135]Actually, I reject my previous statement. A day of prayer by the government would be the government advertising religions who have this day.
Not only that, but they would be advertising religion.
Just more religion pushing itself on other people.
If Christians have their day of prayer on this day, but the Islamic faith doesn't, then,
Christianity advertisment +1
Islam advertisment +0
Why is this bad? Because it's a government that has declared itself to be a place of freedom of religion, advertising religions, but also religions over other religions.[/QUOTE]
Did you miss the part where this wasn't directed at any specific religion? What advertisement for Christianity are you pulling out of your ass?
[QUOTE=gnome;21551236]Did you miss the part where this wasn't directed at any specific religion? What advertisement for Christianity are you pulling out of your ass?[/QUOTE]
Any faith that puts their day of prayer on this day suddenly gets free advertisement from the government, because suddenly this day, which is advertised by the government itself, comes to represent that faith(s).
Christianity was an example, but let's not step around this and pretend that Christianity won't be the first ones to do it. Part of their religion [I]is actually about[/I] advertising themselves for others to join their beliefs. Where as most other faiths are at least respectful of other religions.
When's the last time you hear of Jewish or Budhist missionaries? Even if they exist, they don't advertise themselves like Christianity.
[QUOTE=wulfe8857;21551187]So what I'm hearing is the White House is fighting for a Christian holiday.
...So it's a holiday.
[/QUOTE]
I'm glad that you realize it's not a big deal, but you too missed the part where this isn't a Christian holiday.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551236]Did you miss the part where this wasn't directed at any specific religion? What advertisement for Christianity are you pulling out of your ass?[/QUOTE]
It DOES NOT MATTER if it's directed towards any specific religion or not.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;21551279]Any faith that puts their day of prayer on this day suddenly gets free advertisement from the government, because suddenly this day, which is advertised by the government itself, comes to represent that faith(s).
Christianity was an example, but let's not step around this and pretend that Christianity won't be the first ones to do it.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by "putting their day of prayer" anywhere? If this is declared as a national holiday all it's endorsing is the act of prayer. Sure, anyone could take advantage of it and PRAY, but it's not going to turn into an advertising campaign. Christians already advertise the FUCK out of themselves anyway, and seeing as this doesn't represent any specific religion, I don't see how they could use it as advertising grounds.
[editline]10:46AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=JDK721;21551297]It DOES NOT MATTER if it's directed towards any specific religion or not.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does.
[editline]10:47AM[/editline]
Oh yeah, and back on the topic of Christmas: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showpost.php?p=21532099&postcount=112[/url]
It is a national holiday. So if it's okay to have a day based on a Christian holiday I don't see what the huge deal is if they just have a day about prayer.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551311]What do you mean by "putting their day of prayer" anywhere? If this is declared as a national holiday all it's endorsing is the act of prayer. Sure, anyone could take advantage of it and PRAY, but it's not going to turn into an advertising campaign. Christians already advertise the FUCK out of themselves anyway, and seeing as this doesn't represent any specific religion, I don't see how they could use it as advertising grounds.
[editline]10:46AM[/editline]
Yes it does.[/QUOTE]
But they're still advertising religion and the act of praying, which disrespects my faith that there are no Gods.
They're treating Atheism differently than any other beliefs, like it's not a belief that they should respect as much as Islam, Hinduism, etc.
Freedom of religion also includes the freedom to not have a religion.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;21551376]But they're still advertising religion and the act of praying, which disrespects my faith that there are no Gods.
They're treating Atheism differently than any other beliefs, like it's not a belief that they should respect as much as Islam, Hinduism, etc.
Freedom of religion also includes the freedom to not have a religion.[/QUOTE]
I think there's a difference between celebrating and advertising. You're still basing the entirety of your argument that this is going to somehow be twisted and construed into an advertising campaign promoting... er... religions with gods? I'm confused though, if that were true what do you figure the government is up to? They want to eliminate foreign religions by... promoting prayer? Yeah, I'm sure that'll knock those of different religions completely off their feet. This doesn't infringe on anyone's right to be of any religion, it's just a day about prayer. It doesn't affect people who are of religions that don't have omnipotent idols, you're acting like it's directly disrespecting them. And you're also acting like you don't still have the right to be an atheist, when you do.
Besides, what exactly do you want for atheists, a "God Doesn't Exist" day?
[QUOTE=gnome;21551311]Yes it does.
Oh yeah, and back on the topic of Christmas: [URL]http://www.facepunch.com/showpost.php?p=21532099&postcount=112[/URL]
It is a national holiday. So if it's okay to have a day based on a Christian holiday I don't see what the huge deal is if they just have a day about prayer.[/QUOTE]
Nope, it doesn't matter.
Christmas is NOT a national holiday. There are no NATIONAL HOLIDAYS in the United States. Christmas is a FEDERAL holiday.
[QUOTE]In the United States, a federal holiday is a public holiday recognized by the United States government. Non-essential federal government offices are closed. All federal employees are paid for the holiday; those who are required to work on the holiday sometimes receive wages for that day in addition to holiday pay.
Constitutionally, there are no "national holidays" in the United States because Congress only has authority to create holidays for federal institutions (including federally owned properties) and employees, and for the District of Columbia. Instead, there are federal holidays, state holidays, city holidays, and so on.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_holidays_in_the_United_States[/url]
[editline]01:58PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=gnome;21551443]Besides, what exactly do you want for atheists, a "God Doesn't Exist" day?[/QUOTE]
This isn't about atheists. This is about the Constitution and how we are supposed to be a SECULAR nation.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551443]I think there's a difference between celebrating and advertising. You're still basing the entirety of your argument that this is going to somehow be twisted and construed into an advertising campaign promoting... er... religions with gods? I'm confused though, if that were true what do you figure the government is up to? They want to eliminate foreign religions by... promoting prayer? Yeah, I'm sure that'll knock those of different religions completely off their feet. This doesn't infringe on anyone's right to be of any religion, it's just a day about prayer. It doesn't affect people who are of religions that don't have omnipotent idols, you're acting like it's directly disrespecting them. And you're also acting like you don't still have the right to be an atheist, when you do.
Besides, what exactly do you want for atheists, a "God Doesn't Exist" day?[/QUOTE]
^ Right. Just make sure the White House never calls it [religion here] Day, and it's not a big deal. Just as long as we don't have Atheist extremists (though I've never seen one) starting rallies/whatever.
He's trying to suck up to the christians and republicans
but, really, are you that lazy to just give one prayer even though you don't believe in God? I mean, Gods are awesome.
[QUOTE=Razor sharp;21551547]but, really, are you that lazy to just give one prayer even though you don't believe in God? I mean, Gods are awesome.[/QUOTE]
That would go against my "religion". As an atheist, I simply do not believe in God, so why should I pray to him? Call him awesome, but so is Valve. Who prays to Valve?
[QUOTE=JDK721;21551508]Nope, it doesn't matter.
Christmas is NOT a national holiday. There are no NATIONAL HOLIDAYS in the United States. Christmas is a FEDERAL holiday.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_holidays_in_the_United_States[/url]
[editline]01:58PM[/editline]
This isn't about atheists. This is about the Constitution and how we are supposed to be a SECULAR nation.[/QUOTE]
Lol yes it does
Because it's obvious the government isn't fighting to tell you what to believe in, it's not telling you anything at all except "praying might be pretty cool, give it a shot". They're not saying "praise jesus" or "praise the slut virgin mary" or "praise allah".
Okay, so what difference would it make if prayer day was a national holiday as opposed to a federal holiday? Would that change anything at all?
[QUOTE=Razor sharp;21551547]He's trying to suck up to the christians and republicans
but, really, are you that lazy to just give one prayer even though you don't believe in God? I mean, Gods are awesome.[/QUOTE]
Okay, don't mislead people down the wrong road with comments like that. You make it sound like they're making a law that requires you to pray on this day.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551640]Because it's obvious the government isn't fighting to tell you what to believe in, it's not telling you anything at all except "praying might be pretty cool, give it a shot".
[/QUOTE]
Which is unconstitutional
I phrased that wrong. They're not telling you to DO anything, they're just presenting an opportunity for people who would prefer to.
You're all reading into this way too much, and I can only assume it's because some of you fear that this is a gateway to religious legislation that DOES tell you what and what not to do.
But you know
it's not.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551443]I think there's a difference between celebrating and advertising. You're still basing the entirety of your argument that this is going to somehow be twisted and construed into an advertising campaign promoting... er... religions with gods? I'm confused though, if that were true what do you figure the government is up to? They want to eliminate foreign religions by... promoting prayer? Yeah, I'm sure that'll knock those of different religions completely off their feet. This doesn't infringe on anyone's right to be of any religion, it's just a day about prayer. It doesn't affect people who are of religions that don't have omnipotent idols, you're acting like it's directly disrespecting them. And you're also acting like you don't still have the right to be an atheist, when you do.
Besides, what exactly do you want for atheists, a "God Doesn't Exist" day?[/QUOTE]
I don't want anything for Atheist. I do want equality though. A day of prayer represents multiple different religion, more so for the ones that push for it themselves. A day of "God doesn't exist" would only represent a few beliefs, more so for atheist because that's what everyone thinks of. None of that is fair and it's not equal when the government promotes any of it.
Personally, I don't think the government fully knows what they're doing. I think that they've completely excluded those without beliefs and minority beliefs who believe that everyone has the right to their own belief.
I have a friend who is Atheist, but each of his parents both believe in different agnostic-ish religions and they believe that everyone should be allowed their own faith and that they should not flaunt their faith to anyone else(Which is why their son is Atheist).
This "Day of Prayer" violates their own beliefs.
Not only that, but not all religions pray to their God(s).
I know you're trying to be equal to all religions and be the antagonist here, but you've taken it to the point of ignorance.
[QUOTE=gnome;21551888]I phrased that wrong. They're not telling you to DO anything, they're just presenting an opportunity for people who would prefer to.
You're all reading into this way too much, and I can only assume it's because some of you fear that this is a gateway to religious legislation that DOES tell you what and what not to do.
But you know
it's not.[/QUOTE]
You're right, it's not a slippery slope.
It's UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
So it's still wrong.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;21551932]I don't want anything for Atheist. I do want equality though.[/quote]Fair enough, but I'd like for you to explain how making this day is going to affect you as an atheist.
[quote] A day of prayer represents multiple different religion, more so for the ones that push for it themselves.[/quote]
Okay stop right there. You're saying that because this day exists that any religion it applies to (simply by association of prayer) is going to push even harder to recruit more people into their religion?
Do you know how much religions push already? This isn't going to give them anything just because a day is associated with prayer. If you're that susceptible to advertisement then I'm surprised you're not a Christian already.
[quote] A day of "God doesn't exist" would only represent a few beliefs, more so for atheist because that's what everyone thinks of. None of that is fair and it's not equal when the government promotes any of it.[/quote]
What, okay
So this day is unfair to you because it represents a lot of religions but not atheism
But even though it's generalized to any religion that involves prayer you think somehow it's attacking atheists. Because atheists don't pray? No shit, but this day also doesn't insult atheism in any way. You may as well be mad at hundreds of thousands of corporations and stores that put on the holiday spirit when you walk around the mall in december. Aaaah! Your rights are being infringed!
Oh wait it's not the government so it's all right.
[quote]
Personally, I don't think the government fully knows what they're doing. I think that they've completely excluded those without beliefs and minority beliefs who believe that everyone has the right to their own belief.[/quote]
You're contradicting yourself
You don't want a day to include atheism because atheists are so few and it supposedly would be an insult to people with beliefs, but now you're complaining about them "not being included". Given that atheism is based on not believing in anything, I think it'd be logical for atheists to simply ignore this day and treat it like any other. The way you "celebrate" atheism I would imagine is by not celebrating any religiously-associated activities, whether they be a national or federal holiday.
[quote]
I have a friend who is Atheist, but each of his parents both believe in different agnostic-ish religions and they believe that everyone should be allowed their own faith and that they should not flaunt their faith to anyone else(Which is why their son is Atheist).
This "Day of Prayer" violates their own beliefs.
Not only that, but not all religions pray to their God(s).[/quote]
Stop treating atheism like and oppressed group of individuals. I also believe everyone should be allowed their own faith, but you've yet to present how this day would affect anyone's faith at all. It doesn't demote atheism and it doesn't promote any religion. Just because prayer might not be associated with some religions doesn't mean they're being insulted.
I could label myself "atheist" as well, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna wet my pants and cry oppression every time someone makes a religious promotion, whether or not it's actually directed at anyone.
[quote]I know you're trying to be equal to all religions and be the antagonist here, but you've taken it to the point of ignorance.[/QUOTE]
I'M trying to be the antagonist here? I'm telling you that this whole thing isn't going to matter, and I'M the antagonist?
[editline]11:35AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;21552000]You're right, it's not a slippery slope.
It's UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
So it's still wrong.[/QUOTE]
Okay but you're only basing your logic on the assumption that if something goes against the constitution even in a minute way, it's "wrong". If, as you said so yourself, this isn't a slippery slope, then what difference does it make?
You make this out to be a promotion of religion in general (which is extremely mellow compared to promoting a singular religion and saying that it's the right one), but it's just a celebration of prayer and it's not required so I don't see how it can "infringe" on anything.
[QUOTE=LCBADs;21542446]For all the posts in this thread that I've seen you make, this is exactly the kind of immature logical fallacy I see you parrot all the fucking time. Either make an argument, or say that you can't.[/QUOTE]
Well, I'm looking at it from a different perspective.
[I]Why[/I] would you care about secularism? It's not a big or important topic. Rather, the more common reason is that they're mad because they're atheistic.
This holiday is not imposing religion, it's not supporting religion, it's just giving religion some credit with a holiday. I agree, religion shouldn't be forced, but this has nothing to do with it.
The only reason people spout of "separation of church and state" when they see this holiday is because they're butthurt atheists, you know why? Because this holiday has nothing to do with joining church and state or abolishing secularism in any way.
[quote]but you've yet to present how this day would affect anyone's faith at all.[/quote]
Children are easily influenced. This isn't about now. This law being passed today wouldn't do much, but in 15 years, yeah, it will. Because right next to and fueling the heart of my argument, is that I don't want religion to be the majority within the next 500 years.
[quote]It doesn't demote atheism[/quote]
Not directly. But it promotes Christians to go deeper within their faith, tell atheist they're wrong, and believe that this is a Christian country.
It indirectly demotes atheist in the eyes of the majority. Atheist already get attacked by government officials, did you not hear Bush calling Atheist unpatriotic and enemies of freedom?
Do you know what stupidity like that can lead to? Especially coming from [I]a president[/I]?
[quote]it doesn't promote any religion.[/quote]
No. But it's an opportunity for any religion to jump on and promote themselves even more. Sure, Christians promote themselves a lot, they already are the biggest faith in America, they even have laws that come directly from their bible, but how would it look when Christianity gets a day, encouraged and advertised [I]by the government[/I], for them to push their faith.
This argument already [I]proves[/I] that Christianity is the figurehead of this day.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;21553085]Children are easily influenced. This isn't about now. This law being passed today wouldn't do much, but in 15 years, yeah, it will. Because right next to and fueling the heart of my argument, is that I don't want religion to be the majority within the next 500 years.[/quote]
Please bring to light how kids are going to even know the distinction between a national holiday and a federal holiday, or even the existence of THIS holiday without their parents making it apparent.
[quote]
Not directly. But it promotes Christians to go deeper within their faith,[/quote]
It doesn't say anything about Christianity or how deep to go into any faith.
Plus make up your mind about what's being promoted and what's not, you seem kind of iffy about that.
[quote] tell atheist they're wrong,[/quote]
No it doesn't.
[quote]and believe that this is a Christian country.[/quote]
Lol, once again it says nothing about Christianity or what kind of country we are. Just because Christians pray doesn't mean this has any intended relevance toward them specifically.
Furthermore whether or not you're an atheist is most likely dictated by the way you were raised, not what the government told you to believe as a kid.
[quote]It indirectly demotes atheist in the eyes of the majority. Atheist already get attacked by government officials, did you not hear Bush calling Atheist unpatriotic and enemies of freedom?[/quote]
Again, this doesn't say anything of the sort, so you're once again making the assumption that this will somehow lead to that.
[quote]
No. But it's an opportunity for any religion to jump on and promote themselves even more. Sure, Christians promote themselves a lot, they already are the biggest faith in America, they even have laws that come directly from their bible, but how would it look when Christianity gets a day, encouraged and advertised [I]by the government[/I], for them to push their faith.
This argument already [I]proves[/I] that Christianity is the figurehead of this day.[/QUOTE]
EVERYTHING is an opportunity for religion to jump on and promote themselves. They do that anyway. They take advantage of all forms of media, they put posters on the wall in the city, they hand out fliers door to door, this holiday isn't going to give them ANY power at all. Nothing is being pushed and no opportunity is being presented for religions to push harder. Besides, you can't base your distaste of this on the POSSIBILITY that people could take advantage of it. People can take advantage of a lot of things for many religious promotional purposes, but that doesn't mean it should be done away with. You may as well outlaw religious tv channels because you might accidentally change to it and be brainwashed instantly.
what pisses me off is that even though religious groups can still celebrate this if they want to, & the president can still practice it as well, that's still not enough for them.
all the white house is fighting for is the event being government-driven. there's no reason for that.
as an atheist, i don't care how much he mentions it, i don't care if he speaks publicly about it extensively, & I don't care if he urges people to participate - as long as the government is not representing it. it's a personal thing that has no place in a system like a government. there is no place for a law that establishes it.
[QUOTE=lazyguy;21550567]The church did not believe in witch-hunting and distanced itself from the practice. Very few witches were burned at the stake - most were hanged. The vast, vast majority of the time it was just a town caught in mass hysteria.[/QUOTE]
That is extremely interesting (I am not being sarcastic.)
[QUOTE=Metanoia;21553435]what pisses me off is that even though religious groups can still celebrate this if they want to, & the president can still practice it as well, that's still not enough for them.
all the white house is fighting for is the event being government-driven. there's no reason for that.
as an atheist, i don't care how much he mentions it, i don't care if he speaks publicly about it extensively, & I don't care if he urges people to participate - as long as the government is not representing it. it's a personal thing that has no place in a system like a government. there is no place for a law that establishes it.[/QUOTE]
And I agree, there's absolutely no reason for this to exist
but at the same time it's not really going to do anything, so I wouldn't worry about it.
And there isn't any "law" associated with it.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;21552599]Well, I'm looking at it from a different perspective.
[I]Why[/I] would you care about secularism? It's not a big or important topic. Rather, the more common reason is that they're mad because they're atheistic.
This holiday is not imposing religion, it's not supporting religion, it's just giving religion some credit with a holiday. I agree, religion shouldn't be forced, but this has nothing to do with it.
The only reason people spout of "separation of church and state" when they see this holiday is because they're butthurt atheists, you know why? Because this holiday has nothing to do with joining church and state or abolishing secularism in any way.[/QUOTE]
It actually IS supporting religion. This day exists to support prayer, a common fixture of relgion. By the act of supporting one thing, they are affording less respect to another, in this case, atheism/agnosticism and any religions that don't have prayer.
To adress your first point, secularism is very important. The same way we do not enforce that certain political parties can or can not run, or that teachers must have certain beleifs in order to teach, we should not pick and choose which idelogies are officially supported.You never know for sure, what's right and what's wrong, and to support any certain ideology is to run the risk of it turning out to be wrong, and the ones who are right have less of a chance to spread their viewpoint. It's ultimately the safest and most respectful stance. Do we always follow this credo? No, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't.
How are you guys even arguing about this? Do you honestly believe that just because it doesn't favor any specific religion it is fine? It isn't, the USA isn't supposed to adhere to any religions or beliefs, this may not adhere to a specific religion, but it adheres to RELIGIONS in general, which is still against the constitution.
[QUOTE=gnome;21553590]
And there isn't any "law" associated with it.[/QUOTE]
First sentence in the article:
[Quote]The Obama administration will fight to preserve the law establishing an annual National Day of Prayer, the Justice Department confirmed Thursday.[/Quote]
here, I found the actual law:
[url]http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/36/I/A/1/119[/url]
That's just the "law" that means that this day exists. But I mean there's no action-associated law that requires you to do something on this day.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
