Valve: "We don't have any plans to change after EU Court Ruling" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=parket;36722916]lol you know you're a fanboy when you're arguing against the customer[/QUOTE] you know you're stupid when you have yet to realise that there will always be two sides to an argument

My point was to those that don't get it is amcfaggot was wondering how it would be dealt with in the UK when this is a European law. I'm fully aware that European laws affect the UK. Bad reading everywhere.

[QUOTE=fixture;36722968]you know you're stupid when you have yet to realise that there will always be two sides to an argument[/QUOTE] that's funny all i see are people crying because valve are subject to something that is obviously for the better of the industry?

[QUOTE=BrainDeath;36722404]I love facepunch - argues that piracy is OK because software is not a physical item and then argues we should be able to resell it because you can do that with a tangible product.[/QUOTE] that's because anyone who argues that piracy is morally fine is a mong, it's clearly WRONG we just do it anyway

[QUOTE=parket;36722990]that's funny all i see are people crying because valve are subject to something that is obviously for the better of the industry?[/QUOTE] How is that obviously better for industry?

[QUOTE=parket;36722990]that's funny all i see are people crying because valve are subject to something that is obviously for the better of the industry?[/QUOTE] are you usually this much of a shitposter? because we could easily turn the tables and say that you're a fucking EU fanboy or some stupid shit. infact, i vote everyone who disagrees with you should just type in lowercase, constantly speak sarcastically while saying anyone who opposes them is a 'fanboy' and a 'crybaby' (aka; you.) arguments have two sides and blatantly insulting the other side is just pathetic, which is why i previously just replied with "stop."

[QUOTE=Fetret;36722492]But you're right, the hypocrisy of FP is amazing. If any other company had made an announcement like this, this thread would have filled with posts claiming how that company is nothing more than money grabbing, game destroying soulless entities, but since it is Valve we get people defending the fact that you cannot sell something you have bought fair and square just because the company does not allow you to do so.[/QUOTE] Regardless of the "correct" standing on it, Valve has consistently proven that they would rather treat the customer right than otherwise. Other developers/publishers have in many cases consistently proven the opposite, therefore they lack the good will that Valve has in excess. Good will goes a long way in people forgiving you for doing something they disagree with. It's not hypocrisy, it's a [I]reward[/I] for not being as shit as other businesses. Valve has said numerous times that they consider themselves lucky to have so much good will with their customers, thus allowing them to experiment and do things other companies might not get away with due to their history.

[QUOTE=Downsider;36722841]You do realize if this was in place nobody would buy "new" games any longer? The reason it works for physical items is because it's impossible to restrict the resale of them. The only way this could possibly ever work is if the game is sold back to Steam for what GameStop would give you, then thrown into a pool of "used copies" that are available for purchase on Steam for, say, $5 off; just like how GameStop works. Any other way and Steam gets screwed over hard. If Steam gets screwed over, you can say goodbye to all the benefits of digital download, like sales and cheaper prices. If you put this in place Steam effectively becomes a brick and mortar store that sends you the game disc over the Internet instead of by mail. It will be no different at all.[/QUOTE] retail stores still did fine, despite customers reselling their products, before digital download came along. why would it be any different with steam? as if they'll crash and burn because users sell off their licenses?

[QUOTE=Character;36723046]are you usually this much of a shitposter? because we could easily turn the tables and say that you're a fucking EU fanboy or some stupid shit. infact, i vote everyone who disagrees with you should just type in lowercase, constantly speak sarcastically while saying anyone who opposes them is a 'fanboy' and a 'crybaby' (aka; you.) arguments have two sides and blatantly insulting the other side is just pathetic, which is why i previously just replied with "stop."[/QUOTE] So far every post I've seen you make in this thread has been shit or attacking someone. Cease post. This law applies to more than video games, it wasn't built with games in mind either. In many industries you need a valid licencse to sell or publish work made in some programs, like photoshop. But what if you leave that industry, and don't want the program any more, and want to get a bit of the costs back. This would let you do that while letting someone else get their own legitimate licencse. Obviously. Being able to save and crack the files is still possible, but the law isn't concerned with that. There are other laws to protect companies from software theft/ piracy.

[QUOTE=SinineSiil;36723041]How is that obviously better for industry?[/QUOTE] it encourages buying and brings more flexibility with regards to ownership??? i'm not sure how that can be interpreted as a bad thing for the industry...

[QUOTE=parket;36722112]i hope they do its bullshit you cant resell your own steam games[/QUOTE] Please go read over the TOS of Steam. The reason you can't resell your game keys from Steam legally is because [I]you don't own them[/I]. Valve has no reason to change their policy when it states clearly in the TOS that all purchases on Steam are [I]rentals[/I], making your Steam account and anything bought on it Valve's property, so in short how can you resell something which you do not own. The answer is you can't so this ruling doesn't apply to Steam. As for the comment about "games withheld from sale on Steam", that's really all down to the developer. I know in the UK Game paid off a lot of publishers to get games locked out from being bought directly on Steam by having them only stocked physically in their stores, the game still uses Steam to be installed and ran but you couldn't buy it which is bullshit greed talking.

[QUOTE=parket;36723126]it encourages buying and brings more flexibility with regards to ownership??? i'm not sure how that can be interpreted as a bad thing for the industry...[/QUOTE] A benefit for customers, yes, a benefit for game producers, developers and retailers, no.

You should only be able to resell Revelations 2012. Oh God.

I think it's important to note the difference between second hand physical copies and second hand digital copies. There is really no distinction between a second hand digital copy and a 'store bought' one. The reason why the second hand market works because as physical goods age they become more worn and less desirable than new products. Digital copies never age its just data, people aren't going to favor buying from the steam store over someone who is selling it second hand and then the market won't work. You need to offer considerable incentive to get it new. Perhaps not offering support/achievements/all the community based features to second hand games would be enough incentive.

[QUOTE=parket;36723126]it encourages buying and brings more flexibility with regards to ownership??? i'm not sure how that can be interpreted as a bad thing for the industry...[/QUOTE] Encourages buying used games.

[QUOTE=acds;36722599]No other industry stops you from reselling a legally bought products, I don't see why the video game one should be any different. Go to a store and buy a 50% off TV then resell it. Will anyone try to stop you? No, because you legally own the product. Same thing with movies, no-one stops you from selling your DVD after having seen it once. The videogame industry isn't a very niche industry anymore, it needs to start acting like a real one, starting off by respecting customer's legal right to re-sell what they want. If the industry can't survive this way, then there is something wrong with it. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] As for Valve, they have to comply like everyone else. The EU isn't exactly afraid of giving out titanic fines either.[/QUOTE] Yes but you'll never find a TV on a 50% off only this weekend sale.

[QUOTE=conman420;36723175]I think it's important to note the difference between second hand physical copies and second hand digital copies. There is really no distinction between a second hand digital copy and a 'store bought' one. The reason why the second hand market works because as physical goods age they become more worn and less desirable than new products. Digital copies never age its just data, people aren't going to favor buying from the steam store over someone who is selling it second hand and then the market won't work. You need to offer considerable incentive to get it new. Perhaps not offering support/achievements/all the community based features to second hand games would be enough incentive.[/QUOTE] And digital games have running costs attached to them.

[QUOTE=eddy-tt-;36723160]Please go read over the TOS of Steam. The reason you can't resell your game keys from Steam legally is because [I]you don't own them[/I]. Valve has no reason to change their policy when it states clearly in the TOS that all purchases on Steam are [I]rentals[/I], making your Steam account and anything bought on it Valve's property, so in short how can you resell something which you do not own. The answer is you can't so this ruling doesn't apply to Steam.[/QUOTE] you own the license to use them, which is what this is about lol.... this ruling applies to steam heavily and this headstrong, stubborn stance they've taken could have heavy legal repercussions if they're not careful

[QUOTE=Philly c;36722882]You make it sound like you can just magic up used copies from nowhere. Somebody would still have to buy the original new copy. Besides I actually wouldn't mind if steam was just an "online retail store" and not some restricting online account tied drm.[/QUOTE] You [b]need[/b] drm if you ever expect this system to ever work.

[QUOTE=parket;36723197]you own the license to use them, which is what this is about lol.... this ruling applies to steam heavily and this headstrong, stubborn stance they've taken could have heavy legal repercussions if they're not careful[/QUOTE] Its a rental license though, there is a huge difference there. You still don't own the damn thing so how the fuck can you resell it.

[QUOTE=RayvenQ;36723167]A benefit for customers, yes, a benefit for game producers, developers and retailers, no.[/QUOTE] uhm no they will still get the majority of their sales at launch? the impact on them is minimal lol [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=eddy-tt-;36723220]Its a rental license though, there is a huge difference there. You still don't own the damn thing so how the fuck can you resell it.[/QUOTE] so is every other "license" you get for software, this court decision says that you have the legal right to sell your license to access the software

The second hand market is why online passes are so prevalent. Publishers and developers would earn a lot less from their games if there were no downsides to buying second hand software. Especially when the prices are much lower. There's got to be some downsides to a second hand sale for Valve to recover costs of distribution and hosting for them to consider it. Online passes are obvious, but thanks to Steameorks they have so many more options.

[QUOTE=parket;36723226]uhm no they will still get the majority of their sales at launch? the impact on them is minimal lol [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [/QUOTE] Because only sales at launch matter, right? Quite a few studios have had bad launches, due to whatever reason, and sales over time, rather than sales at release, have been the thing that has kept them afloat.

[QUOTE=eddy-tt-;36723220]Its a rental license though, there is a huge difference there. You still don't own the damn thing so how the fuck can you resell it.[/QUOTE] You sell your licence. That's why I'm saying it would work for steam if done through steam. You sell your licence, you can't play the game through steam anymore unless you buy another licence. It can benefit them if they add a 5% transfer fee to the purchasers cost, and the purchaser receives the game below retail cost. The seller in turn gets money on steam, which if steam is cool will allow to be transferred to paypal so you can convert it into cash. Valve doesn't lose any money since they already sold you the original licence and since you can no longer use the game on steam.

[QUOTE=RayvenQ;36723301]Because only sales at launch matter, right? Quite a few studios have had bad launches, due to whatever reason, and sales over time, rather than sales at release, have been the thing that has kept them afloat.[/QUOTE] tough shit thats business

jesus fucking christ Valve is leasing you the account and you're basically renting the games onto that account for an indeterminate amount of time, you don't own your steam games at all so you're not going to be able to trade them to people.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36723307]You sell your licence. That's why I'm saying it would work for steam if done through steam. You sell your licence, you can't play the game through steam anymore unless you buy another licence. It can benefit them if they add a 5% transfer fee to the purchasers cost, and the purchaser receives the game below retail cost. The seller in turn gets money on steam, which if steam is cool will allow to be transferred to paypal so you can convert it into cash. Valve doesn't lose any money since they already sold you the original licence and since you can no longer use the game on steam.[/QUOTE] Charge people to download steam games they've bought secondhand as well because hey, valve does have running costs.

[QUOTE=parket;36723317]tough shit thats business[/QUOTE] you are a REALLY bad poster

[QUOTE=RayvenQ;36723326]Charge people to download steam games they've bought secondhand as well because hey, valve does have running costs.[/QUOTE] That's what the transfer fee is for.

[QUOTE=conman420;36723175]I think it's important to note the difference between second hand physical copies and second hand digital copies. There is really no distinction between a second hand digital copy and a 'store bought' one. The reason why the second hand market works because as physical goods age they become more worn and less desirable than new products. Digital copies never age its just data, people aren't going to favor buying from the steam store over someone who is selling it second hand and then the market won't work. You need to offer considerable incentive to get it new. Perhaps not offering support/achievements/all the community based features to second hand games would be enough incentive.[/QUOTE] That and selling digital copies forward would be so much faster. Sometimes just finding a second hand thing that you wanted can be a pain in the ass, but with games it would take seconds to find someone selling it.