• Garry writes for The Guardian: Why my videogame chooses your character’s race and gender for you
    277 replies, posted
It kind of makes me want to buy rust to see what my steam account looks like.
Seems stupid. When making a survival game where you want the player's character to be an extension of the player, why would you want to limit the creativity of the player? I mean all this really does is gimp the interactivity of the game for no real reason. Look at X-com where character customization is used to great effect with the players involvement/enjoyment of the game. [QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125503] But both are trivial amounts of effort and to say that they were lazy and are being disingenuous for not including a checkbox is an insult to game development. Like it would take a day or two to implement basic race or gender options.[/QUOTE] Just because something is trivial to implement doesn't mean a person can't be lazy about it. See settings menus in quite a number of AAA games.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125538]Let me start off by saying that I don't even own Rust. I really don't care. It just seems silly to pretend that it's some great way to make the gameplay better. Based on all the videos I've seen the randomized character traits don't add anything other than annoying some people. The thought also just came to me that the vast majority of female characters in the game are going to have male voices coming from them. That would be super immersion breaking.[/QUOTE] And it's not immersion breaking to have a 12 year old's voice come from a 6'7'' black guy? A lot of the female characters would probably be men anyway, it doesn't make a difference.
[QUOTE=squids_eye;50125623]And it's not immersion breaking to have a 12 year old's voice come from a 6'7'' black guy? A lot of the female characters would probably be men anyway, it doesn't make a difference.[/QUOTE] Not having total immersion isn't an argument for doing absolutely nothing for immersion. Yes, a lot of the female characters would be a man, but half the game world wouldn't be full of them.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125590]Seems stupid. When making a survival game where you want the player's character to be an extension of the player, why would you want to limit the creativity of the player? I mean all this really does is gimp the interactivity of the game for no real reason.[/QUOTE] In what way does this game seem to be attempting to make the player character be an extension of the player? If you're gonna tell me that setting skin color and gender limit the player's creativity, then tell me how the vast majority of games featuring white male protagonists are limiting the player's creativity. Where is the same volume of outcry? Let's be honest, only a racist/sexist, closet or not, would care or so grossly misinterpret this decision as anything other than a gameplay driven one.
[QUOTE=NiandraLades;50125333]I like to be able to choose aspects of my character in video games, but there's something neat about it being randomized - as opposed to set in stone Poor Garry tho, he's gonna have to deal with a ton of silly people:[/QUOTE] It is set in stone though. It's permanent on your account, never changes even across servers. I don't play Rust, but if I did this would be annoying to me. I like choosing what I look like. On the other hand though, it's something that'd annoy me for like five minutes, and I can certainly understand wanting to focus on other parts of the game instead.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125590]Just because something is trivial to implement doesn't mean a person can't be lazy about it. See settings menus in quite a number of AAA games.[/QUOTE] are you for real settings menus that have a very real impact on the games core functionalities are nowhere near comparable with changing a single variable that loads a different model or texture. you either have no idea what you're talking about, or are stirring the pot
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125632]In what way does this game seem to be attempting to make the player character be an extension of the player? If you're gonna tell me that setting skin color and gender limit the player's creativity, then tell me how the vast majority of games featuring white male protagonists are limiting the player's creativity. Where is the same volume of outcry? Let's be honest, only a racist/sexist, closet or not, would care or so grossly misinterpret this decision as anything other than a gameplay driven one.[/QUOTE] You are the character that you play. That is inherently making the character an extension of the player. It's not like a story driven game where you're playing as a specific character. In Rust your character has no personality or story beyond what you bring to it. Are there any other modern games where you play a blank slate character that forces you to play as a male?
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125644]are you for real settings menus that have a very real impact on the games core functionalities are nowhere near comparable with changing a single variable that loads a different model or texture. you either have no idea what you're talking about, or are stirring the pot[/QUOTE] It is sometimes. There have been multiple times where fairly important setting have been left out of the settings menus, despite being as easy as an ini file edit.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125538]Let me start off by saying that I don't even own Rust. I really don't care. It just seems silly to pretend that it's some great way to make the gameplay better. Based on all the videos I've seen the randomized character traits don't add anything other than annoying some people. The thought also just came to me that the vast majority of female characters in the game are going to have male voices coming from them. That would be super immersion breaking.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say it's a way to make gameplay better, I think it's a way to block people from bypassing the emergent gameplay goals. I don't play the game regularly anymore, I haven't played for more than a half hour in the last 6-10 months or more. But I get/agree with the why of it.
I love this idea personally. In real life you do not get to choose who you are born as, so it's the same in the game. Part of the survival will be dealing with being who you are and how that affects your relationships with other players. It's actually kind of poetic.
i think this is a cool idea and id like to see more games implement it
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50125656]I wouldn't say it's a way to make gameplay better, I think it's a way to block people from bypassing the emergent gameplay goals. I don't play the game regularly anymore, I haven't played for more than a half hour in the last 6-10 months or more. But I get/agree with the why of it.[/QUOTE] Shouldn't the emergent gameplay be based on the person playing the game and not on what features are arbitrarily applied to them? I really can't see how those traits being random adds anything beyond the political statement of forcing certain players to experience discrimination from a bunch of trolly 12 year olds.
I got a black guy, like one of the first things that happened was I got killed by white people. Then I ganged up with black guy to hunt down white people. What have I become ...
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125632]In what way does this game seem to be attempting to make the player character be an extension of the player? If you're gonna tell me that setting skin color and gender limit the player's creativity, then tell me how the vast majority of games featuring white male protagonists are limiting the player's creativity. Where is the same volume of outcry?[/QUOTE] You're trying to conflate survival games with all games. As far as I know most if not all competing games, (DayZ, ARK Survival Evolved, H1Z1, etc), all have multifaceted character customization. [QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125632] Let's be honest, only a racist/sexist, closet or not, would care or so grossly misinterpret this decision as anything other than a gameplay driven one.[/QUOTE] If you disagree with me you're a sexist or a racist. It's totally not because you disagree with my opinions on player control over the player's experience.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125664]Shouldn't the emergent gameplay be based on the person playing the game and not on what features are arbitrarily applied to them?[/QUOTE] It's much less socially emergent to have no social consequences for your actions when you can just start fresh as a different race/different gender/different name. How does that not break immersion in and of itself? You walk up to someone, gain their trust, get in their base, then kill them and rob them. They're much less likely to trust you again, or anyone, but they're more likely to trust someone who is presumably a totally different person, which as far as they know, you could be, since you just reloaded a totally different looking character and went back to do it again. Locking you in to your appearance makes you responsible for your choices as [I]the player[/I], a variable that can't be coded, leaving things much, much more emergent.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50125691]It's much less socially emergent to have no social consequences for your actions when you can just start fresh as a different race/different gender/different name. How does that not break immersion in and of itself? You walk up to someone, gain their trust, get in their base, then kill them and rob them. They're much less likely to trust you again, or anyone, but they're more likely to trust someone who is presumably a totally different person, which as far as they know, you could be, since you just reloaded a totally different looking character and went back to do it again. Locking you in to your appearance makes you responsible for your choices as [I]the player[/I], a variable that can't be coded, leaving things much, much more emergent.[/QUOTE] You can make gender and race permanent without making it random. In fact, making it a clearly permanent choice would probably bring a lot of people to choose something close to their real life traits.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125695]You can make gender and race permanent without making it random.[/QUOTE] Okay, stepping away from the social portion of it, again, making the character creator poses a ton more potential issues from both a programming and artistic standpoint than assigning IDs through a relatively simple instruction would. [editline]13th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;50125695]You can make gender and race permanent without making it random. In fact, making it a clearly permanent choice would probably bring a lot of people to choose something close to their real life traits.[/QUOTE] Although in real life, you don't really get to choose your gender or race. It's a totally neutral approach.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50125706]Okay, stepping away from the social portion of it, again, making the character creator poses a ton more potential issues from both a programming and artistic standpoint than assigning IDs through a relatively simple instruction would.[/QUOTE] Make two choices: sex and skin color. That's it. Randomly assign everything else. You don't need a full character creator to fix the issues that this article centers around. [editline]13th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=hippowombat;50125706]Although in real life, you don't really get to choose your gender or race. It's a totally neutral approach.[/QUOTE] Guess what, this isn't real life! People come into this game as an individual who already has an established sense of self. You can't replicate that sense of reality unless the person playing the game were to become some sort of tabula rosa, a blank slate with no previous experience.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50125706]Okay, stepping away from the social portion of it, again, making the character creator poses a ton more potential issues from both a programming and artistic standpoint than assigning IDs through a relatively simple instruction would. [/QUOTE] It really doesn't. The only issue is saving the settings. If the art assets are already in the game and implemented then "potential issues from both a programming and artistic standpoint" are nonsense.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125645]You are the character that you play. That is inherently making the character an extension of the player. It's not like a story driven game where you're playing as a specific character. In Rust your character has no personality or story beyond what you bring to it. [B]Are there any other modern games where you play a blank slate character that forces you to play as a male?[/B][/QUOTE] Up until whenever they released this update, Rust.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125384]It seems like a disingenuous excuse to say that they just didn't want to put effort into a character creator. All they had to do was put a check box for sex and a few for skin color. Done.[/QUOTE] They don't want people changing their appearance, they want people to always be recognizable as the same person.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125674]You're trying to conflate survival games with all games. As far as I know most if not all competing games, (DayZ, ARK Survival Evolved, H1Z1, etc), all have multifaceted character customization.[/QUOTE] i'm not conflating anything. who dictates that they as devs have to make the same choices as other similar games? who dictates that giving the player a given choice is the right choice? not you. and to pretend that you know all their reasons why, or even worse necessarily know better than them, is disrespectful to the developers who put their souls into their work. [QUOTE=Thlis;50125674]If you disagree with me you're a sexist or a racist. It's totally not because you disagree with my opinions on player control over the player's experience.[/QUOTE] This is not at all what I said. Pls don't misconstrue my posts. [quote]Let's be honest, only a racist/sexist, closet or not, would care or so grossly misinterpret this decision as anything other than a gameplay driven one.[/quote] Read it five times and if you still think that i'm calling someone a racist for wanting the option to select their race, then I don't know how else to put it.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125590]Seems stupid.[/QUOTE] This is is not the Sims. You can save the Hello-Kitty dress up for another game. This is a survival game. You are forced to adapt to extraneous-conditions over of which you have no control over. What makes this game interesting is that you are placed in a environment and location you have no control over with sticks & stones. Your lack of control over the variables assigned to you which contribute to the survival-nature of the video game and how you are forced to adapt to the set of cards your hand has been dealt with, as in real life. Sure— you might be the local nigger in White-run territory. But as with any survival game, you have to find an environment suitable and friendly for your characteristics (in this case, race). Learn to adapt to it. Find a band of dark-skinned tribal man and launch an attack. A survival game is not meant to accommodate you and tailor stuff so you can have the cushiest survival-experience possible. You have to do that yourself. Garry's goal is to force you to find creative and innovative ways to adapt to the environment you have to deal with. If everyone could choose how they look like, these looks would not matter. But since you don't, the game's survival aspect has been boosted. In a survival game, you have to adapt to what's been dealt with you. You don't get to pick and choose what you want.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;50125673]I got a black guy, like one of the first things that happened was I got killed by white people. Then I ganged up with black guy to hunt down white people. What have I become ...[/QUOTE] TH89.
[QUOTE=NiandraLades;50125333]I like to be able to choose aspects of my character in video games, but there's something neat about it being randomized - as opposed to set in stone Poor Garry tho, he's gonna have to deal with a ton of silly people: [media]https://twitter.com/garrynewman/status/718198344070377472[/media][/QUOTE] I can confirm there was a lot of great responses to that update on the support website. I am actually curious now to see what player model I got in Rust.
[QUOTE=squids_eye;50125744]Up until whenever they released this update, Rust.[/QUOTE] Right, but no one ever argued that they shouldn't add the ability to play as a woman.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125590]Seems stupid. When making a survival game where you want the player's character to be an extension of the player, why would you want to limit the creativity of the player? I mean all this really does is gimp the interactivity of the game for no real reason. Look at X-com where character customization is used to great effect with the players involvement/enjoyment of the game. Just because something is trivial to implement doesn't mean a person can't be lazy about it. See settings menus in quite a number of AAA games.[/QUOTE] So why aren't you mad that there's a dispropornitate amount of white protaganists? Do you not see the inherit inbalance in your argument here? I love this idea because it's like real life. You don't get a choice, and it ultimately shouldn't affect anything but to people like yourself, it's an upset. The game has different goals than to have your PC be a representation of you. That's not what the games about so why try and argue it is?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50125762]This is is not the Sims. You can save the Hello-Kitty dress up for another game. This is a survival game. You are forced to adapt to extraneous-conditions over of which you have no control over. What makes this game interesting is that you are placed in a environment and location you have no control over with sticks & stones. Your lack of control over the variables assigned to you which contribute to the survival-nature of the video game and how you are forced to adapt to the set of cards your hand has been dealt with, as in real life. Sure— you might be the local nigger in White-run territory. But as with any survival game, you have to find an environment suitable and friendly for your characteristics (in this case, race). Learn to adapt to it. Find a band of dark-skinned tribal man and launch an attack. A survival game is not meant to accommodate you and tailor stuff so you can have the cushiest survival-experience possible. You have to do that yourself. Garry's goal is to force you to find creative and innovative ways to adapt to the environment you have to deal with. If everyone could choose how they look like, these looks would not matter. But since you don't, the game's survival aspect has been boosted. In a survival game, you have to adapt to what's been dealt with you. You don't get to pick and choose what you want.[/QUOTE] this is a very clear description of the gameplay implications of a decision like this and why it is a compelling decision
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50125762]This is is not the Sims. You can save the Hello-Kitty dress up for another game. This is a survival game. You are forced to adapt to extraneous-conditions over of which you have no control over. What makes this game interesting is that you are placed in a environment and location you have no control over with sticks & stones. Your lack of control over the variables assigned to you which contribute to the survival-nature of the video game and how you are forced to adapt to the set of cards your hand has been dealt with, as in real life. Sure— you might be the local nigger in White-run territory. But as with any survival game, you have to find an environment suitable and friendly for your characteristics (in this case, race). Learn to adapt to it. Find a band of dark-skinned tribal man and launch an attack. A survival game is not meant to accommodate you and tailor stuff so you can have the cushiest survival-experience possible. You have to do that yourself. Garry's goal is to force you to find creative and innovative ways to adapt to the environment you have to deal with. If everyone could choose how they look like, these looks would not matter. But since you don't, the game's survival aspect has been boosted. In a survival game, you have to adapt to what's been dealt with you. You don't get to pick and choose what you want.[/QUOTE] They should make you randomly spawn with a disease too! That would make even more variables that you wouldn't get to pick! Maybe make some players severely autistic and unable to learn complicated recipes. I'm being sarcastic, of course. My point is that adding more uncontrolled variables isn't an argument in itself.
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