Garry writes for The Guardian: Why my videogame chooses your character’s race and gender for you
277 replies, posted
Skincolour account blackmarket please
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125717]Make two choices: sex and skin color. That's it. Randomly assign everything else. You don't need a full character creator to fix the issues that this article centers around.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
Guess what, this isn't real life! People come into this game as an individual who already has an established sense of self. You can't replicate that sense of reality unless the person playing the game were to become some sort of tabula rosa, a blank slate with no previous experience.[/QUOTE]
What's the issue that it centres around?
The game, and the designers, want a random system. This seems to be 100% inline with that goal.
The point of the game is not to be represented but to survive, and if being black stops someone from surviving, that's because of reasons beyond the game.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125775]Right, but no one ever argued that they shouldn't add the ability to play as a woman.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but there also wasn't any outrage about being forced to play as a man.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125785]They should make you randomly spawn with a disease too! That would make even more variables that you wouldn't get to pick!
Maybe make some players severely autistic and unable to learn complicated recipes.
I'm being sarcastic, of course. My point is that adding more uncontrolled variables isn't an argument in itself.[/QUOTE]
But arguing that "well this system has no choice and players need choice" is arguing that "The devs don't get to choose what the game design is in -this- section of the game design" which is a weak, and broken argument IMO.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50125788]What's the issue that it centres around?
The game, and the designers, want a random system. This seems to be 100% inline with that goal.
The point of the game is not to be represented but to survive, and if being black stops someone from surviving, that's because of reasons beyond the game.[/QUOTE]
Your character is you in every way other than your gender and skin color. You can say it isn't supposed to be you, but that's just simply not true.
It's a character with no backstory, no personality, nothing beyond what you make it... but arbitrarily with random physical traits.
Part of me thinks Garry loves the discussion we're having about it. People are used to customizing their shit. What happens when you take that away?
Very interesting dynamics, that's what you get. The random gender, race, dick and tit sizes probably affects gameplay almost as much as anonymity affects posts on 4chan. It's a conscious design decision, and with the effect it has on the community, it's a very good one. I mean look at how blatantly racist and sexist people get about it. And I don't mean SJW sexist, I mean "[I]I can't play as a [U]dirty[/U] black woman[/I]" sexist. Fuck, that's brilliant!
Even better, it pushes the SJWs to [url=https://twitter.com/garrynewman/status/719546734112829440]hate on it[/url] (read the thread). Garry handles it like a champ too.
By the way, look at the way Garry talks to people and compare it to how he talked to people on Facepunch back in the early days. He's changed a lot, for the better too.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125757]i'm not conflating anything. who dictates that they as devs have to make the same choices as other similar games? who dictates that giving the player a given choice is the right choice?
not you.
and to pretend that you know all their reasons why, or even worse necessarily know better than them, is disrespectful to the developers who put their souls into their work.
This is not at all what I said. Pls don't misconstrue my posts.
Read it five times and if you still think that i'm calling someone a racist for wanting the option to select their race, then I don't know how else to put it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125757]i'm not conflating anything. who dictates that they as devs have to make the same choices as other similar games? who dictates that giving the player a given choice is the right choice?
[/QUOTE]
Again you claimed that the majority of games don't feature character customization. The only truth in this would be if you are conflating games like Uncharted, Prince of Persia, Halo, (Non creative, non customization focused games) with actual competitors like Ark. As far as I can tell every relevant competitor has customization options.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125757]
and to pretend that you know all their reasons why, or even worse necessarily know better than them, is disrespectful to the developers who put their souls into their work.[/QUOTE]
Oh boo hoo, I am being disrespectful by critiquing a decision. Have I ever said ban this sick filth? All I said was it seemed like a stupid idea.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125757]
Read it five times and if you still think that i'm calling someone a racist for wanting the option to select their race, then I don't know how else to put it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125632]
Let's be honest, only a racist/sexist, closet or not, would care or so grossly misinterpret this decision as anything other than a gameplay driven one.[/QUOTE]
You are directly assuming that only a racist or sexist would care about player customization.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50125762]
[B]Sure— you might be the local nigger in White-run territory.[/B] But as with any survival game, you have to find an environment suitable and friendly for your characteristics (in this case, race). Learn to adapt to it. Find a band of dark-skinned tribal man and launch an attack. A survival game is not meant to accommodate you and tailor stuff so you can have the cushiest survival-experience possible. You have to do that yourself. Garry's goal is to force you to find creative and innovative ways to adapt to the environment you have to deal with. If everyone could choose how they look like, these looks would not matter. But since you don't, the game's survival aspect has been boosted..[/QUOTE]
I am absolutely baffled by this post. Do you honestly just assume that all gamers are horrible racists?
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125793]Your character is you in every way other than your gender and skin color.[/QUOTE]
No
That's [B]ONE[/B] method of design.
That's not THE method of design. It's certainly not the design here.
Unless we're going to start demanding paint by numbers game design, that's a moot point.
The point of this system is to remove customization. You can say "That's bad game design" but that's your opinion rather than a fact of the design of games.
You're sure as fuck not complaining about having to play a white guy in a huge amount of games, so the lack of choice is NOT the issue.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125785]They should make you randomly spawn with a disease too! That would make even more variables that you wouldn't get to pick!
Maybe make some players severely autistic and unable to learn complicated recipes.
I'm being sarcastic, of course. My point is that adding more uncontrolled variables isn't an argument in itself.[/QUOTE]
but that speaks nothing to the argument that adding uncontrollable variables as clear as race and gender has strong and interesting implications
i also think you might want to think about whether using disease and severe autism even jokingly as examples in your argument was a good idea given the context (implying disability).
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50125805]No
That's [B]ONE[/B] method of design.
That's not THE method of design. It's certainly not the design here.
Unless we're going to start demanding paint by numbers game design, that's a moot point.
The point of this system is to remove customization. You can say "That's bad game design" but that's your opinion rather than a fact of the design of games.
You're sure as fuck not complaining about having to play a white guy in a huge amount of games, so the lack of choice is NOT the issue.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that the character in this game is a representation of YOU in the game. It has no backstory. It has no personality. It is nothing more than a shell that you put yourself into.
That's totally different than a game with a fleshed out character that you play as. In Half Life you play as Gordon Freeman. It's not you running around. It's Gordon. You're just controlling him.
That's not the case in this game. The person running around is just you in a shell. It has no other features or experience beyond what you give it.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125812]but that speaks nothing to the argument that adding uncontrollable variables as clear as race and gender has strong and interesting implications
i also think you might want to think about whether using disease and severe autism even jokingly as examples in your argument was a good idea given the context (implying disability).[/QUOTE]
That makes it a perfect example. Disability is real life thing that real people are born with. Are you telling me that being born without the ability to walk wouldn't have interesting implications? It would add the idea of necessary charity into the game.
Jesus fucking Christ why do you people care
Grab a rock and bash some fuck's head in, you barely have enough time to look at the colour of your hands whilst doing it, let alone worry about if you've got tits or not.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125825]I'm saying that the character in this game is a representation of YOU in the game. It has no backstory. It has no personality. It is nothing more than a shell that you put yourself into.
That's totally different than a game with a fleshed out character that you play as. In Half Life you play as Gordon Freeman. It's not you running around. It's Gordon. You're just controlling him.
That's not the case in this game. The person running around is just you in a shell. It has no other features or experience beyond what you give it.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
That makes it a perfect example. Disability is real life thing that real people are born with.[/QUOTE]
And none of that is an advocation, or justification for customizability.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=nikomo;50125830]Jesus fucking Christ why do you people care
Grab a rock and bash some fuck's head in, you barely have enough time to look at the colour of your hands whilst doing it, let alone worry about if you've got tits or not.[/QUOTE]
but you see if I can't choose my race, and sex, than the bashing in of another persons head is severely less fun because my skins not the right colour!
[QUOTE=nikomo;50125830]Jesus fucking Christ why do you people care
Grab a rock and bash some fuck's head in, you barely have enough time to look at the colour of your hands whilst doing it, let alone worry about if you've got tits or not.[/QUOTE]
but i cant bash heads with rocks without being immersed in my character bashing heads with rocks
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125802]Again you claimed that the majority of games don't feature character customization. The only truth in this would be if you are conflating games like Uncharted, Prince of Persia, Halo, (Non creative, non customization focused games) with actual competitors like Ark. As far as I can tell every relevant competitor has customization options.[/QUOTE]
And that does nothing to speak for what this game is or should be. Just because a competitor is doing something doesn't mean you should clone it because you overlap with their work. It also doesn't exclude looking at other works that are otherwise less similar. Trying to claim I'm conflating anythings is BS that only seeks to look at this through an extremely thin lens.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125802]Oh boo hoo, I am being disrespectful by critiquing a decision. Have I ever said ban this sick filth? All I said was it seemed like a stupid idea.[/QUOTE]
Without giving it an ounce of thought.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125802]You are directly assuming that only a racist or sexist would care about player customization.[/QUOTE]
I really don't know how to make that sentence any clearer, but no. That's a soundbite interpretation.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125825]I'm saying that the character in this game is a representation of YOU in the game. It has no backstory. It has no personality. It is nothing more than a shell that you put yourself into.
That's totally different than a game with a fleshed out character that you play as. In Half Life you play as Gordon Freeman. It's not you running around. It's Gordon. You're just controlling him.
That's not the case in this game. The person running around is just you in a shell. It has no other features or experience beyond what you give it.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
That makes it a perfect example. Disability is real life thing that real people are born with. Are you telling me that being born without the ability to walk wouldn't have interesting implications? It would add the idea of necessary charity into the game.[/QUOTE]
Except that being black or being a woman doesn't have any gameplay implications beyond how other players act towards you, so no, it's not the same thing at all.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;50125673]I got a black guy, like one of the first things that happened was I got killed by white people. Then I ganged up with black guy to hunt down white people.
What have I become ...[/QUOTE]
my smooth dark skin makes hunting whitey at night much easier
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50125832]And none of that is an advocation, or justification for customizability.[/QUOTE]
We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. It seems obvious to me that having an avatar that's sole purpose is to visually represent an individual in a game world should, therefore, be controlled by the person who's being represented.
[QUOTE=Robotboy655;50125768]I can confirm there was a lot of great responses to that update on the support website.
I am actually curious now to see what player model I got in Rust.[/QUOTE]
Can also confirm (that garry tweet was a ticket i replied to)
My model is a white female with small tits.
[QUOTE=squids_eye;50125854]Except that being black or being a woman doesn't have any gameplay implications beyond how other players act towards you, so no, it's not the same thing at all.[/QUOTE]
The way other players act toward you is the majority of the gameplay. My view is that it should be based on your choices as a player and not arbitrary values assigned to you.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125717]Make two choices: sex and skin color. That's it. Randomly assign everything else. You don't need a full character creator to fix the issues that this article centers around.[/QUOTE]
I'm not on their team, I don't know what went through their head, but from my perspective, I'd probably have thought, "how much do these options serve the gameplay vs how much time will each one take?" Different people will have different answers to those questions, that's just subjectivity.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125717]Guess what, this isn't real life! People come into this game as an individual who already has an established sense of self. You can't replicate that sense of reality unless the person playing the game were to become some sort of tabula rosa, a blank slate with no previous experience.[/QUOTE]
Obviously it's not real life, no need to be like that. Bottom line: I don't see how it's [I]this big of a deal.[/I]
[QUOTE=Thlis;50125727]It really doesn't. The only issue is saving the settings. If the art assets are already in the game and implemented then "potential issues from both a programming and artistic standpoint" are nonsense.[/QUOTE]
Again, saving the settings from server to server vs saving them to steam ids poses a fork in the road, that leads to other forks, from a programming standpoint. From an art standpoint, making compatible, customizable art assets to serve the unique needs of tens of thousands of individuals is a complex process. And from an overall game development standpoint, say, from a project manager's perspective, the things you have to weigh, again, are, "how much time/resource will this take vs how much will it really serve the game?"
This just my opinion, and it's totally subjective. I'm not trying to upset anyone or bring anyone else down.
does it ever occurred to people that in this game, which prides itself on social tension created by players and their situations, every opportunist, griefer and horndog 12 year old would opt to be a naked chick with big boobs so people don't kill them on sight and occasionally give them free shit
because that's been happening in MMOs since forever and those don't exactly center around on social interaction to not die
it's a weird thing to even consider a 'right' choice in the games market when things like black desert online's character customization has been lauded so much as of late, but for the game's overall aim I'd say it's an important sacrifice to prevent players from manufacturing favorable outcomes outside of the core game mechanics. Fuck any consideration for time spent making character customization in the first place, it's actually a passive mechanic of the game in itself and the choice is an interesting shaker
[QUOTE=elowin;50125643]It is set in stone though. It's permanent on your account, never changes even across servers.[/QUOTE]
However, during development it's going to change often, probably, just the same way that Minecraft's terrain generation algorithm changed frequently during development, which meant that the same seed (once you could input your own seed) would generate different results.
So, the look players have [I]now[/I] isn't permanent, but it eventually will be. I expect server modding to unlock that eventually, though (right now garry doesn't have any hooks for that except for server admins to change themselves).
[QUOTE=Swebonny;50125673]I got a black guy, like one of the first things that happened was I got killed by white people. Then I ganged up with black guy to hunt down white people.
What have I become ...[/QUOTE]
The racist we've always known you to be
i l u bby <3
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;50125782]this is a very clear description of the gameplay implications of a decision like this and why it is a compelling decision[/QUOTE]
The only compelling gameplay-related argument I have heard come out of the Rust subforum ever since the first mention of female models (and how you won't get to choose when it's eventually added--and here we are now) is that hitboxes on smaller characters actually provide a non-trivial advantage, so some Steam IDs will have a small but objective advantage over other players. And this is a balance issue that the devs can work through when it's time, so no biggie.
Every other argument has been rooted in selfishness and driven by the assumption of automatic entitlement to character creation, with no appeals to gameplay impacts. And people wonder why garry didn't change his mind.
My favourite so far have been the straight-up requests to have their character gender changed, either in forum threads or in direct requests to support (which I only know about because they talked about it in the Rust subforum afterwards), as if the random selection wasn't due to an algorithm but a giant database of Rust players and a coin-flipper randomly throwing 0 or 1 on everyone, and FP Support could just go in there and tweak their entry to make them happy without disrupting the entire system. Meanwhile they're actually asking the devs to make the random number generator cheat and always give them a 7. :v:
[QUOTE=Sharker;50125494]Guess people will just have to deal with the fact that they are racist, misogynist or what have you.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with this notion. Being upset because your avatar doesn't represent you does not make you racist or misogynist.
There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be who you don't want to be.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50125886]Obviously it's not real life, no need to be like that. Bottom line: I don't see how it's [I]this big of a deal.[/QUOTE]
Why does something have to be a [I]big deal[/I] to discuss it? I find it an interesting topic about game design, nothing more and nothing less.
I take it back, the race and gender options are way too unrealistic.
The core gameplay loop is about beating someone's head in with a rock, so every player should always spawn as a British white male chav, with a hoodie.
[QUOTE=dai;50125891]sgman has it ever occurred to you that in this game, which prides itself on social tension created by players and their situations, every opportunist, griefer and horndog 12 year old would opt to be a naked chick with big boobs so people don't kill them on sight and occasionally give them free shit
because that's been happening in MMOs since forever and those don't exactly center around on social interaction to not die
it's a weird thing to even consider a 'right' choice in the games market when things like black desert online's character customization has been lauded so much as of late, but for the game's overall aim I'd say it's an important sacrifice to prevent players from manufacturing favorable outcomes outside of the core game mechanics[/QUOTE]
Does that happen in Ark? I don't believe it does.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125858]We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. It seems obvious to me that having an avatar that's sole purpose is to visually represent an individual in a game world should, therefore, be controlled by the person who's being represented.[/QUOTE]
So you're outright saying "it's never a good design choice to change -this- design methodology"?
Yeah we will have to agree to disagree because you don't want to see change.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50125895]Why does something have to be a [I]big deal[/I] to discuss it? I find it an interesting topic about game design, nothing more and nothing less.[/QUOTE]
But you're saying everyones wrong and this isn't a good way to do this. I don't get how it's interesting if you think it's wrong
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50125909]I love this feature because it is random. It's just like real life, you don't get to choose what you were born as.
I'm hoping for all-female clans or anti-x clans, neat social things like that. That's where rust excels, it has it's own in-game culture and this only makes it more interesting.[/QUOTE]
This is just fucking weird.
It's like you guys are all proclaiming that this is the perfect answer to sexism and racism, and then boasting about incorporating sexism and racism.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/o0raSAw.png[/t]
:zing:
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