Garry writes for The Guardian: Why my videogame chooses your character’s race and gender for you
277 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50126107]No one on your side of the argument is bothered by someone not being represented in other games with so called forced characterizations. I don't see how this design goal affects gameplay or why it should affect your own connection to a character.[/QUOTE]
This point has been addressed at least 3 separate times in this thread. I don't know if you're purposefully ignoring them or what.
There's a difference between playing as a character and playing as yourself. Rust is the latter and I don't know of any game like that that doesn't have character customization.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126306]This point has been addressed at least 3 separate times in this thread. I don't know if your purposefully ignoring them or what.
There's a difference between playing as a character and playing as yourself. Rust is the latter and I don't know of any game like that that doesn't have character customization.[/QUOTE]
How is Rust about playing yourself? It's about survival.
This is one option on how to do player avatars. It's their design goal. We can judge those goals but ultimately it's meaningless if the designers want to design the game their way.
It's not an RPG. They never sold it as an RPG. The point is to make your character not die.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50126314]How is Rust about playing yourself? It's about survival.
This is one option on how to do player avatars. It's their design goal. We can judge those goals but ultimately it's meaningless if the designers want to design the game their way.[/QUOTE]
It's you because the entirety of the character comes from you. The goals are your goals, the personality is your personality, the backstory is whatever you decide to make it, etc. If the character isn't you, then who is it?
I don't know why you keep dismissing the idea of discussing game design. Yes, it's their choice, but that doesn't make it a good choice. Also, let me be clear that I'm working under the assumption that the goal is to make the game as enjoyable as possible for the target audience. If the goal is to push a political or social narrative, then my points don't really apply.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126386]It's you because the entirety of the character comes from you. The goals are your goals, the personality is your personality, the backstory is whatever you decide to make it, etc. If the character isn't you, then who is it?
I don't know why you keep dismissing the idea of discussing game design. Yes, it's their choice, but that doesn't make it a good choice. Also, let me be clear that I'm working under the assumption that the goal is to make the game as enjoyable as possible for the target audience. If the goal is to push a political or social narrative, then my points don't really apply.[/QUOTE]
It's a good choice in my opinion though, and I've justified it. You handwave those reasons away.
Your sole goal is survival. That's it. I don't know why you have to inhabit a characters skin, genotype, phenotype, and everything, in order to identify with the goal of survival. It's not an RPG. It's a blank slate for you to step into and survive with. That's it.
As for it's design goals, giving people no choice over it helps create a more diverse environment because people would choose things that are homogenous. They don't want that. You can complain it's a "social narrative" but I don't believe it is.
Why are you so quick to determine what "Good game design" is, and why are you so quick to determine it can't be changed or grow or be a different style than the status quo, which for me, doesn't work so well.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50126394]The rust character is as much my character as my Dungeons and Dragons character is my character.
It is fiction, it is make-believe, and if your self-image is so brittle it can't handle randomization in your fictional character, I don't know how you would be able to ever live a normal life.[/QUOTE]
Being represented as a black person instead of a white person shouldn't affect you. If it does, I really, REALLY can't understand why besides racism, subtle or not.
I need a reason and there's none offered that seem even remotely valid.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50126394]The rust character is as much my character as my Dungeons and Dragons character is my character.[/QUOTE]
Right, and if you were forced to always play an elf, then that would make DnD worse, not better. DnD is a great example of allowing you to create your character however you want.
[QUOTE]It is fiction, it is make-believe, and if your self-image is so brittle it can't handle randomization in your fictional character, I don't know how you would be able to ever live a normal life.[/QUOTE]
Why do you have to make it about personal attacks? Is it not possible that I just think it's a bad idea?
Yeah, no, I'm still not convinced.
I'm sure there are a ton of people who are hate this for the wrong reasons, but I don't like that everyone who doesn't like this kind of thing seems to be being portrayed as an immature, insecure racist/sexist who can't handle not playing a white guy. I also don't like the portrayal of the devs as having some stupid SJW agenda.
I just think it's downright lazy and a stupid idea. I don't buy the "It's interesting!" excuse because all the novelty you could get by forcing yourself to hit randomize on any game with character creation and saying "Right, I'm picking whatever I get". If you didn't want to create a character creator, you might as well have kept everyone looking like a white, bald, naked dude. Randomly assigning race and gender doesn't really add anything, especially when everyone seems to run around dressed either in nothing or in clothes that cover the majority of their body and a face mask. But, eh, being matched with a random race with a tiny floppy dick for comedy purposes (or youtube purposes) is like the actual biggest selling point of Rust as far as I can tell, so it's not like they're getting rid of it any time soon.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126421]Right, and if you were forced to always play an elf, then that would make DnD worse, not better. DnD is a great example of allowing you to create your character however you want.
Why do you have to make it about personal attacks? Is it not possible that I just think it's a bad idea?[/QUOTE]
Why is it a bad idea? How does it negatively impact the game? How does it change how you interact with the game? How does it affect how you interact with other people? How does it change "Survival"? How does it make the game worse? What about the games practical "Play" has changed?
You're not being forced to play an elf in DND, you're being forced to play a human in Rust. If you can't connect to another human regardless of sex and race, that's YOUR problem. I don't see why or even how it really, truly affects [B]this[/B] game.
I kinda disagree with both this decision and the race one insofar as I'm a believer in player choice and agency in games, and being able to customize your own avatar and backstory can be an important part of that. At the same time it doesn't really matter all that much in the same way that it doesn't matter that you can't be a girl in Deus Ex and that you can't be a guy in Tomb Raider. It's nice to have player customization for that stuff but in no way is it always an integral part of the game or a dealbreaker.
Let's use ARK as a lesson for why we don't want to have character customization.
Everyone will make their character a muscular black man who's 3 feet tall.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50126437]I kinda disagree with both this decision and the race one insofar as I'm a believer in player choice and agency in games, and being able to customize your own avatar and backstory can be an important part of that. At the same time it doesn't really matter all that much in the same way that it doesn't matter that you can't be a girl in Deus Ex and that you can't be a guy in Tomb Raider. It's nice to have player customization for that stuff but in no way is it always an integral part of the game or a dealbreaker.[/QUOTE]
See, the thing is, there's so many different types of games and so many that will do all sorts of different things. If this is the design choice that kills Rust, I'll be surprised, but I see no reason why every game has to do customization the way we have been.
We have games that do all sorts of methods of this, this is another method with another design goal. I'm okay with having some choice in our game design and this is just another choice for us to make.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50126432]Why is it a bad idea? How does it negatively impact the game? How does it change how you interact with the game? How does it affect how you interact with other people? How does it change "Survival"? How does it make the game worse? What about the games practical "Play" has changed?
You're not being forced to play an elf in DND, you're being forced to play a human in Rust. If you can't connect to another human regardless of sex and race, that's YOUR problem. I don't see why or even how it really, truly affects [B]this[/B] game.[/QUOTE]
It makes the game worse because it forces players to deal with knowing that the devs certainly have all the models and whatnot to make a character creator (at least a basic one) while having to put up with the devs refusing to let them for no good reason (we don't wANnNAAAAAAa) while still slapping a character they don't want to play as on to them.
It makes the game better because...I don't know. I don't actually have an answer for that, and I'd love to hear a good one. People seem to justify it by saying "well the game's about survival and having this doesn't hurt survival" but that doesn't justify actually doing it in the first place. In what way does randomly assigning me as a white guy with a tiny dick aid survival?
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;50126463]It makes the game worse because it forces players to deal with knowing that the devs certainly have all the models and whatnot to make a character creator (at least a basic one) while having to put up with the devs refusing to let them for no good reason (we don't wANnNAAAAAAa) while still slapping a character they don't want to play as on to them.
It makes the game better because...I don't know. I don't actually have an answer for that, and I'd love to hear a good one. People seem to justify it by saying "well the game's about survival and having this doesn't hurt survival" but that doesn't justify actually doing it in the first place. In what way does randomly assigning me as a white guy with a tiny dick aid survival?[/QUOTE]
[B]it doesn't fucking matter[/B]
That's the whole point. It doesn't. It doesn't affect you to have a tiny dick or giant tits. It doesn't matter. It's totally irrelevant to your skills as a player. The game design represents that.
I look at games like ARK, and I can't help but laugh sadly because of how fucking stupid the community looks. Everyones a tiny black dwarf or a giant dude that makes no sense. But I don't want that removed, I just don't care about it. This isn't an idea that I really care about either, but it gives the option of a different system, and it meets the design goals their aiming for.
We can all hate that as much as we want and if it kills Rust, so be it, it'll be a game killed by immaturity
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50126432]Why is it a bad idea (1)? How does it negatively impact the game (2)? How does it change how you interact with the game (3)? How does it affect how you interact with other people (4)? How does it change "Survival" (5)? How does it make the game worse(6)? What about the games practical "Play" has changed (7)?[/QUOTE]
I've answered all of these questions already, but here you go. I've numbered your questions for easier reference:
1) It's a bad idea because it takes away the ability to represent yourself the way you want in a game that has representing yourself in social situations as a major part of it's gameplay while also adding little to nothing positive to the gameplay.
2) Refer to number 1
3) It's very possible that some people will react differently to you based on your physical appearance. This may not line up with how you want to represent yourself in those social situations. This effects the way you interact with other players, a major part of the game.
4) Refer to number 3.
5) It has no effect on the non-social aspect of the game. Note that this isn't an argument for making it random. It's totally neutral.
6) Refer to number 3.
7) Refer to number 3.
Oh Garry, you can admit you only did it to hear 12-year-olds bitch and moan.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126421]Right, and if you were forced to always play an elf, then that would make DnD worse, not better. DnD is a great example of allowing you to create your character however you want.[/QUOTE]
It's more like rolling the dice at the beginning of the game to pick your race. You can complain about it all you like, but that's the one you have and you should grow to appreciate the character more as a result because you can't just delete them and start over.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50126483][B]it doesn't fucking matter[/B]
That's the whole point. It doesn't. It doesn't affect you to have a tiny dick or giant tits. It doesn't matter. It's totally irrelevant to your skills as a player. The game design represents that.
I look at games like ARK, and I can't help but laugh sadly because of how fucking stupid the community looks. Everyones a tiny black dwarf or a giant dude that makes no sense. But I don't want that removed, I just don't care about it. This isn't an idea that I really care about either, but it gives the option of a different system, and it meets the design goals their aiming for.
We can all hate that as much as we want and if it kills Rust, so be it, it'll be a game killed by immaturity[/QUOTE]
So you're both saying them putting in a character creator is a bad idea because it doesn't matter while also defending them putting in a random character generator as a good idea because it doesn't matter? I'm not understanding you at all.
Also I love how everyone is going "UGH EVERYONE'S JUST SO IMMATURE FOR NOT LIKING THIS" when the main actual appeal of this is to boot in to Rust, and giggle at your dick size and race with your friends. Real mature.
I kinda wanna see what my character will be now but I don't wanna get Rust. Any way to do this?
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126486]I've answered all of these questions already, but here you go. I've numbered your questions for easier reference:
1) It's a bad idea because it takes away the ability to represent yourself the way you want in a game that has representing yourself in social situations as a major part of it's gameplay while also adding little to nothing positive to the gameplay.
2) Refer to number 1
3) It's very possible that some people will react differently to you based on your physical appearance. This may not line up with how you want to represent yourself in those social situations. This effects the way you interact with other players, a major part of the game.
4) It has no effect on the non-social aspect of the game. Note that this isn't an argument for making it random. It's totally neutral.
5) Refer to number 3.
6) Refer to number 3.[/QUOTE]
1) Meh. That's not the point of the game. It's sad players lose that, but it was never the point.
2) Refer to 1
3) And that's a problem? Having to actually understand that people are fucking racist with a first hand feel is a bad thing? Having to deal with not having preconceptions of a person in a game world is a bad thing?
4) Non point
5) I disagree, it's a change that'll be interesting to see the fallout of.
6) See 5.
Not all games have to be about representing the player agency in the world as they want to be seen. There are interesting concepts to be explored here and it's being seen as wrong to explore those. I disagree.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50126510]1) Meh. That's not the point of the game. It's sad players lose that, but it was never the point.
2) Refer to 1
3) And that's a problem? Having to actually understand that people are fucking racist with a first hand feel is a bad thing? Having to deal with not having preconceptions of a person in a game world is a bad thing?
4) Non point
5) I disagree, it's a change that'll be interesting to see the fallout of.
6) See 5.
Not all games have to be about representing the player agency in the world as they want to be seen. There are interesting concepts to be explored here and it's being seen as wrong to explore those. I disagree.[/QUOTE]
Like I said before, I'm working under the assumption that the game's goal is to be the most enjoyable it can be. Having immature kids be racist or sexist towards you might be politically or socially interesting, but it's not fun.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;50126495]So you're both saying them putting in a character creator is a bad idea because it doesn't matter while also defending them putting in a random character generator as a good idea because it doesn't matter? I'm not understanding you at all.
Also I love how everyone is going "UGH EVERYONE'S JUST SO IMMATURE FOR NOT LIKING THIS" when the main actual appeal of this is to boot in to Rust, and giggle at your dick size and race with your friends. Real mature.[/QUOTE]
Now maybe I don't understand the appeal of Rust, but the whole concept of it that interests me is a social persistent survival game.
Not looking at your dick and giggling because you're 12 and literally can't handle the sight of a dick without laughter. The dicks and boobs in it are there as a joke, but I don't see how it's inherently immature humour, it's only seeming that way because we have a great deal of body shame in the western world.
It's a game that's sole goal is survival and customizing your characters skin and gender doesn't matter. The game reinforces that. I don't see why it's essential all games have the exact same level of customization.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126520]Like I said before, I'm working under the assumption that the game's goal is to be the most enjoyable it can be. Having immature kids be racist or sexist towards you might be politically or socially interesting, but it's not fun.[/QUOTE]
Having people kill you for literally no reason is fun in DAY-Z according to most people
How is this not a socio-economic version of fun? How is there not fun to be had in using your enemies preconceptions against them?
That sounds fun as fuck to me in a survival game.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126520]Like I said before, I'm working under the assumption that the game's goal is to be the most enjoyable it can be. Having immature kids be racist or sexist towards you might be politically or socially interesting, but it's not fun.[/QUOTE]
It would happen regardless of whether people can control their appearance though? And that's how the real world works anyway? This game is a survival game, not a social escapism game. Like in reality, you don't choose the circumstances you're born into but you make the best of what you have.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50126501]I kinda wanna see what my character will be now but I don't wanna get Rust. Any way to do this?[/QUOTE]
I reckon it just randomly assigns a race and gender to your Steam account ID once you first get into the game, which cannot be changed.
You might be able to do it through Steam Family Sharing, but I'm not sure.
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;50126528]It would happen regardless of whether people can control their appearance though? And that's how the real world works anyway? This game is a survival game, not a social escapism game[/QUOTE]
Can we stop pretending that the game is about survival? No one plays the game because of the hunting and gathering. People play the game to build, to raid, and to have fun social interactions.
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;50126528]It would happen regardless of whether people can control their appearance though? And that's how the real world works anyway? This game is a survival game, not a social escapism game. Like in reality, you don't choose the circumstances you're born into but you make the best of what you have.[/QUOTE]
"That's not fun"
Says who?
[QUOTE=matt000024;50125475]tbh this feature actually makes me want to try rust, but unfortunately i'm still a cheap bastard[/QUOTE]
Same
except I'm a slightly less cheap bastard, because I'm pretty sure Rust would cost me 1000€ (for a new computer, and I'm not getting a 500€ roaster to play only a couple of games either)
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126539]Can we stop pretending that the game is about survival? No one plays the game because of the hunting and gathering. People play the game to build, to raid, and to have fun social interactions.[/QUOTE]
And those are hindered by having to deal with a random skin colour?
How exactly does having to interact with a different skinned digital mass of polygons effect the social elements of the game what so ever for a normal well adjusted person without racial issues?
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
It's about survival. That survival is social survival in many ways, but still, SURVIVAL.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50126550]And those are hindered by having to deal with a random skin colour?
How exactly does having to interact with a different skinned digital mass of polygons effect the social elements of the game what so ever for a normal well adjusted person without racial issues?[/QUOTE]
Even assuming it has zero effect on gameplay, which clearly isn't the case, that still isn't an argument for making it random.
With that said, the entire joke about Rust is the immaturity of it's player base. So there's no reason to think that you will be playing with "well adjusted person[s]."
[QUOTE=sgman91;50126562]Even assuming it has zero effect on gameplay, which clearly isn't the case, that still isn't an argument for making it random.[/QUOTE]
It isn't an argument you like, but it's an argument that's just as valid as it was before.
Your basic premise is that "Good game design lets you choose your character". I disagree with that premise.
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