Pope Benedict stumped by Japanese girl's question about suffering - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Variant;29386656]They may be choices, but they aren't your choices. You are pushed into the one that sounds the least harmful, which would be the most obvious one to choose. You are given an ultimatum, not free will.[/QUOTE] i was thinking about this this morning and think i came up with a rather good response: that being the notion of forgiveness. a man can be a horrible person and not believe in jesus until the minute he dies, but if at that minute he truly asks for forgiveness for he sins, gives his life to jesus etc. then he will go to heaven. given, you are still right that there is an ultimatum, but a man can live his life freely if he is willing to ask for forgiveness in the end and is truly sorry.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29404996]i was thinking about this this morning and think i came up with a rather good response: that being the notion of forgiveness. a man can be a horrible person and not believe in jesus until the minute he dies, but if at that minute he truly asks for forgiveness for he sins, gives his life to jesus etc. then he will go to heaven. given, you are still right that there is an ultimatum, but a man can live his life freely if he is willing to ask for forgiveness in the end and is truly sorry.[/QUOTE] Coercion is still a form of force. God is still forcing you to love him.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29405038]Coercion is still a form of force. God is still forcing you to love him.[/QUOTE] right i saw what you said. and i think hes right that there is a certain level of force, however i also believe that there is a certain level of freedom.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29405067]right i saw what you said. and i think hes right that there is a certain level of force, however i also believe that there is a certain level of freedom.[/QUOTE] okay then you believe your own delusions rather than what is actually there if you're being forced in anyway, the freedom that is there, isn't really there. How can we have freedom if god already knows how our lives will go?

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29404996]i was thinking about this this morning and think i came up with a rather good response: that being the notion of forgiveness. a man can be a horrible person and not believe in jesus until the minute he dies, but if at that minute he truly asks for forgiveness for he sins, gives his life to jesus etc. then he will go to heaven. given, you are still right that there is an ultimatum, but a man can live his life freely if he is willing to ask for forgiveness in the end and is truly sorry.[/QUOTE] Yes but if your a good person but doesn't believe in jesus it says you go to hell. Thats kind of messed up. And if your I would still call it forced because you are forced to believe in him or you go to hell even if its at the last seconds of your life especially since most people dont know when there last second of life are.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29405107]okay then you believe your own delusions rather than what is actually there if you're being forced in anyway, the freedom that is there, isn't really there. How can we have freedom if god already knows how our lives will go?[/QUOTE] well, defining what is real is a totally different subject. i said a certain level of freedom in forgiveness, meaning you can do whatever you want and still be forgiven. also i believe predestination or whatever is a term that should be used more loosely. god knows your future because he knows YOU. you can change your path by changing yourself. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;29405133]Yes but if your a good person but doesn't believe in jesus it says you go to hell. Thats kind of messed up. And if your I would still call it forced because you are forced to believe in him or you go to hell even if its at the last seconds of your life especially since most people dont know when there last second of life are.[/QUOTE] in this case we would have to define what a good person is.... i dont really want to... and yes i did say that man is being forced to choose between heaven or hell, however he is allowed to be free before then. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] and youre right, nobody knows when theyre going to die so, but you dont have to ask for forgiveness at that moment... it could be beforehand.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29405224]and youre right, nobody knows when theyre going to die so, but you dont have to ask for forgiveness at that moment... it could be beforehand.[/QUOTE] Well then why exactly is someone who does not believe in god a bad person? I mean does believing in god help anyone? Does not hurt anyone? I mean there has to be a real reason that its bad to not believe in god.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29405224]well, defining what is real is a totally different subject. i said a certain level of freedom in forgiveness, meaning you can do whatever you want and still be forgiven. also i believe predestination or whatever is a term that should be used more loosely. god knows your future because he knows YOU. you can change your path by changing yourself. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] in this case we would have to define what a good person is.... i dont really want to... and yes i did say that man is being forced to choose between heaven or hell, however he is allowed to be free before then. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] and youre right, nobody knows when theyre going to die so, but you dont have to ask for forgiveness at that moment... it could be beforehand.[/QUOTE] But if you change god already knows who and how you'd change. So, you're still in the exact same boat as before, he's still pre-determining everything. There is no freedom in being told, if you don't accept me and say you're sorry for the wrongs(arbitrarily decided wrongs) you've done, you'll burn in a lake of fire and be tortured for eternity. There is 0 freedom in that choice.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;29405342]Well then why exactly is someone who does not believe in god a bad person? I mean does believing in god help anyone? Does not hurt anyone? I mean there has to be a real reason that its bad to not believe in god.[/QUOTE] if you were to treat god as a philosophy, which i think athiests should at least do, then think back to what socrates said: "the unexamined life is not worth living" a man discovers a lot about himself and the world around him by understand god. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29405371]But if you change god already knows who and how you'd change. So, you're still in the exact same boat as before, he's still pre-determining everything. There is no freedom in being told, if you don't accept me and say you're sorry for the wrongs(arbitrarily decided wrongs) you've done, you'll burn in a lake of fire and be tortured for eternity. There is 0 freedom in that choice.[/QUOTE] i still think that forgiveness allows a certain amount of freedom.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29405401]if you were to treat god as a philosophy, which i think athiests should at least do, then think back to what socrates said: "the unexamined life is not worth living" a man discovers a lot about himself and the world around him by understand god. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] i still think that forgiveness allows a certain amount of freedom.[/QUOTE] I can think that roosters can produce cows milk, doesn't make it so. just the fact you don't see coercion and force means you're going to be taken advantage of. How the fuck can you quote mine socrates to support a christian god? REALLY? You do know WHY he said that right? introspective thought was a HUGE deal to socrates, it has nothing to do with god and I can't believe you'd actually disgrace him with that.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29405401]if you were to treat god as a philosophy, which i think athiests should at least do, then think back to what socrates said: "the unexamined life is not worth living" a man discovers a lot about himself and the world around him by understand god.[/QUOTE] "The unexamined life is not worth living." I agree with this, but I don't see how God comes into it, at all. I mean, belief in God is the epitome of not examining life or the world around you.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29405401]if you were to treat god as a philosophy, which i think athiests should at least do, then think back to what socrates said: "the unexamined life is not worth living" a man discovers a lot about himself and the world around him by understand god. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline].[/QUOTE] So your saying atheist or anyone who desnt believe in the same god as you deserves to go to hell because they dont examine life? Im sorry and I might be generalising but if you look great scientists who really do examine the world around them you will see they are almost all atheist. And even if this were not true no one deserves to go to hell because the proper amount of proof for god was not presented to them or because they don't believe in it. Its like justifying the murder of people who think politically different then you do. Its just wrong. Really I spent a lot of time studding for the fun of it so I believe I have examined life a lot.

i already said that i thought there was still force, but with freedom, and that those two can indeed exist at the same time. im done with thread. if anyone really wants to keep discussing this then pm me.

[QUOTE=Chrille;29405492]"The unexamined life is not worth living." I agree with this, but I don't see how God comes into it, at all.[/QUOTE] It doesn't. In anyway. Socrates wanted people to examine themselves and examine the world around them. he wanted people to THINK. He wanted them to rationalize away everything they could, he wanted people to actively try and understand themselves. There is no where that this incorporates god. [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] Force = freedom in Waals Vander's world.

Why did we suddenly start arguing about religion when we're trying to make jokes about the pope looking like a sith lord because that's the best we do :v:?

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;29406118]Why did we suddenly start arguing about religion when we're trying to make jokes about the pope looking like a sith lord because that's the best we do :v:?[/QUOTE] probably because having these arguments really only demonstrates one side of the arguments inability to question themselves. I'm pretty sure most posters here aren't sold on their beliefs 100%, and can at least question themselves. Religious people it seems, do not question themselves and when forced to, shut themselves up.

[QUOTE=Waals Vander;29404996]i was thinking about this this morning and think i came up with a rather good response: that being the notion of forgiveness. a man can be a horrible person and not believe in jesus until the minute he dies, but if at that minute he truly asks for forgiveness for he sins, gives his life to jesus etc. then he will go to heaven. given, you are still right that there is an ultimatum, but a man can live his life freely if he is willing to ask for forgiveness in the end and is truly sorry.[/QUOTE] I'm curious. Do you honestly think that a murdering rapist who repented and embraced Jesus on his deathbed would go to heaven, while an atheist that lived as a paragon of virtue would go to hell? How could an all-knowing, all-loving being possibly consider such a scenario to be reasonable? On-topic: It's good to see the Pope attempting to engage with the media, but I think it's telling that he, who allegedly speaks directly to God, has no answer to the question. You'd think that if God had our best interests at heart, he'd at least try to justify such destruction.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29406203]probably because having these arguments really only demonstrates one side of the arguments inability to question themselves. I'm pretty sure most posters here aren't sold on their beliefs 100%, and can at least question themselves. Religious people it seems, do not question themselves and when forced to, shut themselves up.[/QUOTE] And atheists, don't know how to drop a subject easily. Neither side really wins any points with me :colbert: [editline]24th April 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Snipehamster;29406252]I'm curious. Do you honestly think that a murdering rapist who repented and embraced Jesus on his deathbed would go to heaven, while an atheist that lived as a paragon of virtue would go to hell? How could an all-knowing, all-loving being possibly consider such a scenario to be reasonable? On-topic: It's good to see the Pope attempting to engage with the media, but I think it's telling that he, who allegedly speaks directly to God, has no answer to the question. You'd think that if God had our best interests at heart, he'd at least try to justify such destruction.[/QUOTE] The pope honestly answered that he had no idea, I think that scores a few points for Christ's sake.

[QUOTE=mikfoz;29394202] It's also pointless trying to convince a person who has been successfully conditioned to not think critically about Bible stories to think critically about them. You lot are wasting your time and just circle jerking in front of people who think you are rude, thoughtless heretics.[/QUOTE] I personally believe there are many Christians who simply don't know the alternative and showing it to them politely and in a civil manner can never hurt. You act like they're all complete morons and that isn't the case.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;29407566]I personally believe there are many Christians who simply don't know the alternative and showing it to them politely and in a civil manner can never hurt. You act like they're all complete morons and that isn't the case.[/QUOTE] Thank you Zeke, that's what we really need. Here, have a heart cookie to heal yourself.

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;29407487]The pope honestly answered that he had no idea, I think that scores a few points for Christ's sake.[/QUOTE]Points for not knowing something? What? This isn't a competition.

[QUOTE=Snipehamster;29406252]I'm curious. Do you honestly think that a murdering rapist who repented and embraced Jesus on his deathbed would go to heaven, while an atheist that lived as a paragon of virtue would go to hell? How could an all-knowing, all-loving being possibly consider such a scenario to be reasonable?[/QUOTE] Well, the conclusion to be made is that someone had not convinced him to believe. The whole thing was designed to fall on the shoulders of humanity. One of the things I learned in my earlier years is that the religion is not based as a god interfering with daily affairs in any direct way. Instead, it is of a god working [i]through[/i] people. Basically, a person is inspired by this god figure to help others both directly and through ministry. In essence, calling people who fuck up to life change. It would be said as this god figure working through the person. If the person decides to be lazy and does nothing to convert the people around him, the weight of said non-Christians would be placed on the shoulders of the Christian who became sclerotic in his beliefs. As for things like natural disasters and the sort, the idea is that a satan figure throws a bunch of shit at you, hoping that you lose grasp of your faith. The whole "free will" factor comes into play, so this god figure has no control over the satan figure. Though, the Bible dictates that anyone who commits any sort of sin will go to hell without acceptance of Jesus. So, unless said atheist had committed no sin (in which case, the atheist would be let into heaven), the fault would be placed on Christians who decided not to reach out. Makes a little sense when you think about it, but not really. The religion itself has been countlessly used to manipulate people, or as a device for hate. There's also the kinds of people who are :downs: and think that the only way to help non-Christians is to be confrontational and force Christianity down the throats of everyone else.

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;29407634]Points for not knowing something? What? This isn't a competition.[/QUOTE] For honestly answering a question most overtly religious people would bullshit on? And when was this a competition? If you've never heard someone use the phrase "Scoring some bonus points" it means that person now has a little more respect for whoever they are speaking about.

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;29407902]For honestly answering a question most overtly religious people would bullshit on? And when was this a competition? If you've never heard someone use the phrase "Scoring some bonus points" it means that person now has a little more respect for whoever they are speaking about.[/QUOTE]Well wouldn't someone who can supposedly talk to his god lose points if he can't answer a question that can be easily asked to god? Bullshit or no bullshit, it's still not a good answer. He didn't leave it at "I don't know" he moved his answer onto "Jesus is always with you so don't worry too much about suffering".

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;29407980]Well wouldn't someone who can supposedly talk to his god lose points if he can't answer a question that can be easily asked to god? Bullshit or no bullshit, it's still not a good answer.[/QUOTE] OH hey! Another person who doesn't know how the papacy works. Awesome! :neckbeard:

[QUOTE=joes33431;29407869]Well, the conclusion to be made is that someone had not convinced him to believe. The whole thing was designed to fall on the shoulders of humanity. One of the things I learned in my earlier years is that the religion is not based as a god interfering with daily affairs in any direct way. Instead, it is of a god working [i]through[/i] people. Basically, a person is inspired by this god figure to help others both directly and through ministry. In essence, calling people who fuck up to life change. It would be said as this god figure working through the person. If the person decides to be lazy and does nothing to convert the people around him, the weight of said non-Christians would be placed on the shoulders of the Christian who became sclerotic in his beliefs. As for things like natural disasters and the sort, the idea is that a satan figure throws a bunch of shit at you, hoping that you lose grasp of your faith. The whole "free will" factor comes into play, so this god figure has no control over the satan figure. Though, the Bible dictates that anyone who commits any sort of sin will go to hell without acceptance of Jesus. So, unless said atheist had committed no sin (in which case, the atheist would be let into heaven), the fault would be placed on Christians who decided not to reach out. Makes a little sense when you think about it, but not really. The religion itself has been countlessly used to manipulate people, or as a device for hate. There's also the kinds of people who are :downs: and think that the only way to help non-Christians is to be confrontational and force Christianity down the throats of everyone else.[/QUOTE] and my question is, how can you rationally believe any of that without any proof

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29408016]and my question is, how can you rationally believe any of that without any proof[/QUOTE] Since when did rationality come into it?

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;29408027]Since when did rationality come into it?[/QUOTE] since we're human beings trying to decide our own fates and why is rationality a bad thing? Rationality should come into EVERYTHING.

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;29408009]OH hey! Another person who doesn't know how the papacy works. Awesome! :neckbeard:[/QUOTE]Prayer?

[QUOTE=joes33431;29407869]Well, the conclusion to be made is that someone had not convinced him to believe. The whole thing was designed to fall on the shoulders of humanity. One of the things I learned in my earlier years is that the religion is not based as a god interfering with daily affairs in any direct way. Instead, it is of a god working [i]through[/i] people. Basically, a person is inspired by this god figure to help others both directly and through ministry. In essence, calling people who fuck up to life change. It would be said as this god figure working through the person. If the person decides to be lazy and does nothing to convert the people around him, the weight of said non-Christians would be placed on the shoulders of the Christian who became sclerotic in his beliefs. Though, the Bible dictates that anyone who commits any sort of sin will go to hell without acceptance of Jesus. So, unless said atheist had committed no sin (in which case, the atheist would be let into heaven), the fault would be placed on Christians who decided not to reach out.[/QUOTE] All well and good, but in the end a good person is still agonisingly tortured for all time. They recieve an infinite, inescapable punishment for finite crimes. Meanwhile a murderer, whose crime is far worse, is granted an infinite reward thanks to a last-minute change of heart. This is a fundamentally immoral system. [QUOTE=VengfulSoldier]The pope honestly answered that he had no idea, I think that scores a few points for Christ's sake.[/QUOTE] Absolutely. My point was that the Pope is, according to catholic theology, in the best possible place to know, or find out, things like this. The fact that he doesn't know (and swiftly changed the subject) shows that the issue of human suffering, in the face of a supposedly benign and all-powerful creator, is a problem for christianity.