Thousands marching through London to protest against the decision to leave EU
176 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Morgen;50638260]I didn't even say we should disregard the referendum. Since it's so close the government has to decide what to do with it, and whatever they do must be done delicately. One wrong misstep and they become responsible for the breakup of the UK. Ultimately the referendum wasn't a yes or no to a piece of legislation, it is to guide the government on public opinion on the issue.
Freedom of movement with the commonwealth to replace that what we had with the EU... really? You have to be trolling. The commonwealth:
[thumb]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Commonwealth_of_Nations.svg/2000px-Commonwealth_of_Nations.svg.png[/thumb]
The EU:
[thumb]http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/70233000/gif/_70233868_eunames.gif[/thumb]
I'm not an expert at geography but I'm pretty sure there's a massive difference in distance here that might make that a bit problematic and pointless to the UK. There's also a pretty big economic and political rifts between the economies and political beliefs of many of those nations.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and one wrong step and it will be responsible for democracy collapsing. Yeah, it wasn't a vote to a piece of legislation, but a guide to eventually end at Article 50 being invoked.
I should of explained what I meant when I said Commonwealth, as usually defined by NZ, AU, CA, UK. To which while large distance between them, political beliefs etc between the ones I listed are basically inline, as we all stem from the same political setup, etc. Maybe Anglosphere would be better, but that includes the US.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638271]Yes, and one wrong step and it will be responsible for democracy collapsing. Yeah, it wasn't a vote to a piece of legislation, but a guide to eventually end at Article 50 being invoked.
I should of explained what I meant when I said Commonwealth, as usually defined by NZ, AU, CA, UK. To which while large distance between them, political beliefs etc between the ones I listed are basically inline, as we all stem from the same political setup, etc.[/QUOTE]
"Democracy collapsing"... Oh yeah going against a non binding referendum with barely a majority that may very well not even exist is totally going to make democracy collapse.
And if you think the UK relying on the commonwealth for support is going to make their dependence on the EU redundant I don't know what planet you're on.
[QUOTE=gastyne;50638093]Even though I think it's a bad idea for them to leave the EU, Brexit did win the democratic way [B]fair and square[/B].[/QUOTE]
No they didn't. They lied on every single point they had. The people of the UK voted to leave the EU because they were misinformed by politicians trying to use populism for profit, and Rupert Murdoc's media empire working in his interests.
They said the UK would get better trade deals. That is literally impossible.
They said they would use the £350 million they pay to the EU to fund the NHS. They won't, in fact most of the leave politicians want to privatise healthcare for their own gain.
They said they would reduce immigration by gaining control of the borders. They can't if they want to keep trading with the EU, and the mayor of Calais has said she wants to review their policies on preventing immigrants from leaving toward the UK. Why should France care about immigrants leaving into a non-EU country?
They said they would gain sovereignty from EU laws. The UK voted to enact 98% of EU laws and were able to veto things they didn't want, now they will have to follow any EU laws that are passed and they have no say in the matter. If they want to trade, of course.
The UK gained literally nothing in deciding to leave and they lost quite a lot. Their decision was fuelled by lies and fearmongering. As it stands the damage of the leave campaign is done. The UK either leaves the EU and loses all it's international power and sees its economy fall to ruin, or they veto/ignore the vote and the UK remains in the EU but they will still have lost much of their clout and are seen as being weak. At least with the second option they get to stabalise their economy and don't have to waste years and billions of pounds just to re-establish trade connections they already had.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50638282]"Democracy collapsing"... Oh yeah going against a non binding referendum with barely a majority that may very well not even exist is totally going to make democracy collapse.[/QUOTE]
Well at that point, ignoring a referendum, that no matter if it was binding or not, will piss off a bigger proportion of the population. Not only do people think that government has mistreated the public for years with cuts etc, to the point the UN has commented, now they won't even follow the advice of a referendum.
That sets a standard that the government doesn't listen and watch the turnout collapse for the next general election because of it. Why vote, on a referendum if no one is going to follow it, why vote in an election if your government is still going to continue by not listening to the people.
Not only is the rest of the world awaiting Article 50, by not doing it is political suicide.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50638282]
And if you think the UK relying on the commonwealth for support is going to make their dependence on the EU redundant I don't know on what planet you're on.[/QUOTE]
Don't actually think I ever said that.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;50638297]large post[/QUOTE]
I'll believe all that when we actually get there. But we aren't there.
[QUOTE=Streecer;50638259]Nationalism is a dangerous and outdated set of ideas that only lead to conflict, there is no benefit to making decisions based on such an idea. It also goes beyond "valuing your country," into a space where the expression of that idea becomes a problem. The wave of xenophobic abuse following the vote is an example of this.
Countries are almost a necessity, a collection of people with a common language, cultural standards and political opinions that might not be properly represented anywhere else, but to argue that nationalism is a good thing after all of the problems it has caused is where I draw the line.[/QUOTE]
I want to make a clear distinction between Nationalism and Jingoism, pride and self-determination are not outdated. There are plenty of fine avenues for expressing nationalistic pride for your country, I like to think of the Olympics or the World Cup as a good example. This can be expanded on, in more scientific examples such as the ISS, whose modules displays all the individual flags of nations that should be proud to contribute to such a technological and political entity.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638271]Yes, and one wrong step and it will be responsible for democracy collapsing. Yeah, it wasn't a vote to a piece of legislation, but a guide to eventually end at Article 50 being invoked.
I should of explained what I meant when I said Commonwealth, as usually defined by NZ, AU, CA, UK. To which while large distance between them, political beliefs etc between the ones I listed are basically inline, as we all stem from the same political setup, etc. Maybe Anglosphere would be better, but that includes the US.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't end at article 50 being invoked though. We don't tell the EU "Hey guys we are doing that article 50 thing today, cya". There's a massive amount of negotiations involved and how we go into them and what comes of them will have a massive impact on the UK and the rest of Europe. If we just applied a fire and forget mentality to it then we would be fucked.
The BBC has a good infographic on explaining the process:
[thumb]http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/F9AF/production/_90091936_img_5827.png[/thumb]
Even between those countries you listed the only ones that would really benefit would be AU and NZ due to distance. Short of a new form of transportation that can take you between them quickly and affordably. Infact this comment leads me to believe that you don't comprehend how intertwined we are with the EU at this point. This isn't something we joined 5 years ago, a whole generation of families and businesses are built on this thing. I'll just quote a friend of mine from a recent conversation about Michael Gove:
[QUOTE]When I talk about the Union, I speak as someone born and raised in Derbyshire, to a German mother and a UK father, and who currently lives in the Netherlands. I am someone for whom the European Union is not a constitutional abstraction but who I am. I am British and German and European. For me it is in every sense about family too, and to hear that sort of talk from a man who just successfully campaigned to break up a union absolutely beggars belief.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Morgen;50638318]It doesn't end at article 50 being invoked though. We don't tell the EU "Hey guys we are doing that article 50 thing today, cya". There's a massive amount of negotiations involved and how we go into them and what comes of them will have a massive impact on the UK and the rest of Europe. If we just applied a fire and forget mentality to it then we would be fucked.[/QUOTE]
I never said it was like that. I know about the process. You can already bet back channels between EU countries and the UK are already busy sorting out agreements.
[QUOTE=Morgen;50638318]
Even between those countries you listed the only ones that would really benefit would be AU and NZ due to distance. Short of a new form of transportation that can take you between them quickly and affordably. Infact this comment leads me to believe that you don't comprehend how intertwined we are with the EU at this point. This isn't something we joined 5 years ago, a whole generation of families and businesses are built on this thing. I'll just quote a friend of mine from a recent conversation about Michael Gove:[/QUOTE]
Then it is going to take a long time to untwine everything. It can happen, well, its going to happen anyway.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638299]Well at that point, ignoring a referendum, that no matter if it was binding or not, will piss off a bigger proportion of the population. Not only do people think that government has mistreated the public for years with cuts etc, to the point the UN has commented, now they won't even follow the advice of a referendum.
That sets a standard that the government doesn't listen and watch the turnout collapse for the next general election because of it. Why vote, on a referendum if no one is going to follow it, why vote in an election if your government is still going to continue by not listening to the people.
Not only is the rest of the world awaiting Article 50, by not doing it is political suicide.[/QUOTE]
How do you know it's going to piss off a bigger portion of the population? The decision of leaving already pisses off a huge amount of them, one could even say they're a majority. Who in their right mind would continue to support leaving now that it's been exposed as an aberrant idea and every argument for it has been proved wrong?
[QUOTE]I'll believe all that when we actually get there. But we aren't there.[/QUOTE]
"What do you mean jumping off a cliff will kill me? I'll believe all that when I actually hit the ground, I'm not there yet."
Alright then, ignore the overwhelming amount of experts who have shown this will have nothing but negative consequences. Maybe if you believe it [I]really hard[/I], it might turn out okay, who knows?
[editline]3rd July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638327]Then it is going to take a long time to untwine everything. It can happen, well, its going to happen anyway.[/QUOTE]
But [I]why the fuck would you want to do this?[/I]
[QUOTE=_Axel;50638332]How do you know it's going to piss off a bigger portion of the population? The decision of leaving already pisses off a huge amount of them, one could even say they're a majority. Who in their right mind would continue to support leaving now that it's been exposed as an aberrant idea and every argument for it has been proved wrong?
I'm taking an easy guess that the population cares for democracy more than the EU. That your government actually listens to you.
"What do you mean jumping off a cliff will kill me? I'll believe all that when I actually hit the ground, I'm not there yet."
Alright then, ignore the overwhelming amount of experts who have shown this will have nothing but negative consequences. Maybe if you believe it [I]really hard[/I], it might turn out okay, who knows?[/QUOTE]
We've had experts say that this is good and this is bad. I can't predict the outcome of the negotiations and neither can you, we've already had the french finance minister shake things up putting everything on the table for discussion as well as some comment from german industry. This will be an interesting times indeed. You're entitled to your belief that the UK will die the EU if they leave, and I personally believe they will be fine and in a better place because of it.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638327]I never said it was like that. I know about the process. You can already bet back channels between EU countries and the UK are already busy sorting out agreements.
Then it is going to take a long time to untwine everything. It can happen, well, its going to happen anyway.[/QUOTE]
The biggest countries in the EU have said they won't negotiate at all until article 50 is invoked, so it doesn't really matter since an agreement has to be with the EU as a whole. There's a reason that the current favourite for the new conservative leader doesn't want to invoke article 50 straight away.
[QUOTE=Morgen;50638348]The biggest countries in the EU have said they won't negotiate at all until article 50 is invoked, so it doesn't really matter since an agreement has to be with the EU as a whole. There's a reason that the current favourite for the new conservative leader doesn't want to invoke article 50 straight away.[/QUOTE]
Yes, theres no negotiation, but there are discussions and deals being done regardless so all sides end up coming to the table well prepared. Exactly why I have said on here that Article 50 should be pushed out a good time away to allow other deals to be made. Article 50 announcement itself will be a hit to the market, the UK will make sure at the same time they can announce some FTAs in the works with other countries to offset the damage.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638347]We've had experts say that this is good and this is bad. I can't predict the outcome of the negotiations and neither can you, we've already had the french finance minister shake things up putting everything on the table for discussion as well as some comment from german industry. This will be an interesting times indeed. You're entitled to your belief that the UK will die the EU if they leave, and I personally believe they will be fine and in a better place because of it.[/QUOTE]
Explain to me how the UK can get better deals through negotiations out of the EU than they would have while remaining in the EU? It's literally impossible.
The only thing that makes you believe it's a good idea is the will to believe it is, not any sort of factual argument. Your only argument (which isn't really one) is "we don't really know how it will turn out" even though all [I]facts[/I] point towards this being an awful decision.
[editline]3rd July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638362]Yes, theres no negotiation, but there are discussions and deals being done regardless so all sides end up coming to the table well prepared. Exactly why I have said on here that Article 50 should be pushed out a good time away to allow other deals to be made. Article 50 announcement itself will be a hit to the market, [B]the UK will make sure at the same time they can announce some FTAs in the works with other countries to offset the damage.[/B][/QUOTE]
That would be putting a bandaid on a gaping wound. No FTA can offset the damage a removal from the EEA would cause.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638362]Yes, theres [B]no negotiation, but there are discussions and deals[/B] being done regardless so all sides end up coming to the table well prepared. Exactly why I have said on here that Article 50 should be pushed out a good time away to allow other deals to be made. Article 50 announcement itself will be a hit to the market, the UK will make sure at the same time they can announce some FTAs in the works with other countries to offset the damage.[/QUOTE]
:what:
The dictionary definition for a negotiation is "discussion aimed at reaching an agreement". If there are no "discussions and deals" with our biggest partners then any of those announcements will have little impact.
The only positive thing I can see coming out of this is that the other retarded nationalist parties in the rest of the EU will be much less credible now if they push the same kind of politics. But it's not like the far right operates on logic anyway.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50638367]Explain to me how the UK can get better deals through negotiations out of the EU than they would have while remaining in the EU? It's literally impossible.
The only thing that makes you believe it's a good idea is the will to believe it is, not any sort of factual argument. Your only argument (which isn't really one) is "we don't really know how it will turn out" even though all [I]facts[/I] point towards this being an awful decision.
[/QUOTE]
We don't know how it will turn out, this is basically new territory. No country, this large and vital to the EU has left before. There will be damage to both sides, everyone knows this.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50638367]
That would be putting a bandaid on a gaping wound. No FTA can offset the damage a removal from the EEA would cause.[/QUOTE]
I did say at the announcement, last I checked, the UK doesn't get removed from the EEA on the spot of invoking Article 50.
[QUOTE=Morgen;50638376]:what:
The dictionary definition for a negotiation is "discussion aimed at reaching an agreement". If there are no "discussions and deals" with our biggest partners then any of those announcements will have little impact.[/QUOTE]
How about [I]informal negotiations[/I] happening between EU countries and the UK currently, and the UK to non-EU countries. Infact, EU countries will currently be running the numbers on FTA of countries outside the EU with the UK so they make sure they make a tariff high enough to just make it cheaper than non-eu products.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638401]We don't know how it will turn out, this is basically new territory. No country, this large and vital to the EU has left before. There will be damage to both sides, everyone knows this.
I did say at the announcement, last I checked, the UK doesn't get removed from the EEA on the spot of invoking Article 50.
How about [I]informal negotiations[/I] happening between EU countries and the UK currently.[/QUOTE]
Informal negotiations have been ruled out by the EU as well. The UK doesn't get removed from the EEA on the spot of invoking article 50 but it will two years after that if the negotiations between the UK and EU don't agree to allow them into it, or get extended.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638401]
How about [I]informal negotiations[/I] happening between EU countries and the UK currently, and the UK to non-EU countries. Infact, EU countries will currently be running the numbers on FTA of countries outside the EU with the UK so they make sure they make a tariff high enough to just make it cheaper than non-eu products.[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/eu-may-refuse-informal-brexit-talks-until-uk-triggers-article-50"]oops[/URL]
[QUOTE=Morgen;50638409]Informal negotiations have been ruled out by the EU as well. The UK doesn't get removed from the EEA on the spot of invoking article 50 but it will two years after that if the negotiations between the UK and EU don't agree to allow them into it, or get extended.[/QUOTE]
The EU has ruled them out yes, but the member states of the EU will be doing back channeling regardless, with the UK and each other to work out everything up to Article 50 negotiation and beyond.
Do you think countries don't talk to each other or something?
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638414][URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/eu-may-refuse-informal-brexit-talks-until-uk-triggers-article-50"]oops[/URL][/QUOTE]
Do you think countries don't talk to each other or something?
Oh yes, we [I]totally [/I]have radio silence between the channel. Come on people.
As for the Scotland issue:
While I believe that the Scottish remain voters should accept the UK result, (those that voted to remain in the UK), the following could still be a possibility:
If it becomes obvious that Scotland will leave the UK (so that it can remain in the EU) - then instead of Scotland leaving the UK, the England and Wales could leave the UK - and then Scotland itself just doesn't invoke article 50.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638418]
Do you think countries don't talk to each other or something?[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/uk-lacks-expertise-for-trade-talks-with-europe-says-top-civil-servant"]We don't have enough negotiators to handle 28 different countries at once[/URL]
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638422][URL="http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/uk-lacks-expertise-for-trade-talks-with-europe-says-top-civil-servant"]We don't have enough negotiators to handle 28 different countries at once[/URL][/QUOTE]
You understand why I said informal right. When it comes to EU to UK negotiations, its an issue, but until then, its fine. Even my country is sending trade negotiators over to help.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638424]You understand why I said informal right.[/QUOTE]
who the fuck wants to talk with the uk anymore, since i mean, we did tell the immigrants to get out of our country
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638428]who the fuck wants to talk with the uk anymore, since i mean, we did tell the immigrants to get out of our country[/QUOTE]
Welcome to geopolitics. Everyone will be talking and everyone will come to the table when negotiations start with a pretty solid plan.
I hope people remember trade is a two way system. Both sides will be making sure they get this right.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638431]Welcome to geopolitics. Everyone will be talking and everyone will come to the table when negotiations start with a [B]pretty solid plan.[/B][/QUOTE]
i'd like the uk to have a plan before i'm 84
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638435]i'd like the uk to have a plan before i'm 84[/QUOTE]
The longer Article 50 is held off, the better chance they create a series of negotiation scenarios and outcomes they can work with.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638439]The longer Article 50 is held off, the better chance they create a series of negotiation scenarios and outcomes they can work with.[/QUOTE]
i'm fairly certain the longer we leave it the more pissed the eu is going to get
besides, we shouldn't even have to discuss when the plan is written up because the tossers who ran the leave campaign should've had one
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638418]The EU has ruled them out yes, but the member states of the EU will be doing back channeling regardless, with the UK and each other to work out everything up to Article 50 negotiation and beyond.
Do you think countries don't talk to each other or something?
Do you think countries don't talk to each other or something?
Oh yes, we [I]totally [/I]have radio silence between the channel. Come on people.[/QUOTE]
When France, Germany, and Italy tell you to piss off until you get serious there's not much you can do. Even if we are talking to other countries, without the support of the biggest powers in the EU they will have little influence over the EU negotiations. If we go behind the EUs back then if it came out it would only hinder things when it comes to actually getting a favorable agreement with the EU.
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638442]i'm fairly certain the longer we leave it the more pissed the eu is going to get[/QUOTE]
The more pissed off it will get, but that won't affect negotiations.
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638442]
besides, we shouldn't even have to discuss when the plan is written up because the tossers who ran the leave campaign should've had one[/QUOTE]
There's no legal requirement for them to have one, but honestly, I'm not even sure how well you can plan for this to be honest, you don't know which countries are willing to do business etc.
[QUOTE=Morgen;50638443]When France, Germany, and Italy tell you to piss off until you get serious there's not much you can do. Even if we are talking to other countries, without the support of the biggest powers in the EU they will have little influence over the EU negotiations. If we go behind the EUs back then if it came out it would only hinder things when it comes to actually getting a favorable agreement with the EU.[/QUOTE]
And where did they tell the UK to piss off, in the media. It is true, there will be little influence, but they will be anyway. All the member states have their own agendas to fulfil, and thus will be in contact with the UK and other EU states to determine a good outcome for themselves. There will be some states that will push for reform etc in these negotiations.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638455]
There's no legal requirement for them to have one, but honestly, I'm not even sure how well you can plan for this to be honest, you don't know which countries are willing to do business etc.
[/QUOTE]
no, but if you plan to say, scale a mountain, it's good to actually have a good plan rather than just wing it and hope for the best
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638462]no, but if you plan to say, scale a mountain, it's good to actually have a good plan rather than just wing it and hope for the best[/QUOTE]
Why bother with a plan when you just claim a bunch of crap that sounds good to the uninformed?
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