• Thousands marching through London to protest against the decision to leave EU
    176 replies, posted
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;50638462]no, but if you plan to say, scale a mountain, it's good to actually have a good plan rather than just wing it and hope for the best[/QUOTE] I would say Boris should of had the plan, being in power, thus having the relevant information. UKIP only has 1 seat in the house of commons, so I couldn't expect them to have a plan for negotiations.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638474]I would say Boris should of had the plan, being in power, thus having the relevant information. UKIP only has 1 seat in the house of commons, so I couldn't expect them to have a plan for negotiations.[/QUOTE] Johnson who is one man who doesn't hold a senior government position should of had a plan but it's okay for the one UKIP guy to not have a plan? How can you even back the leave side if they had no plan? How does anything their campaign said even hold any weight if they had no plan? "Hey guys if we leave the EU everything will be better! We can give £350 million a week to the NHS! Dunno about all the other things funded by the EU though lol."
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638401]We don't know how it will turn out, this is basically new territory. No country, this large and vital to the EU has left before. There will be damage to both sides, everyone knows this.[/QUOTE] Of course there will be damage, that goes without saying. That tends to happen when such an important country makes such an aberrant choice. But [I]where are the advantages the UK will gain from this?[/I] Literally all you keep saying is "we'll see", but the UK [I]objectively[/I] has nothing to gain from leaving the EU, and we've yet to see a single argument on your part that would point towards a single positive effect of leaving. [QUOTE]I did say at the announcement, last I checked, the UK doesn't get removed from the EEA on the spot of invoking Article 50.[/QUOTE] That doesn't matter. As soon as article 50 is invoked investors will bail out to prevent losses. They won't wait until the UK is effectively out of the EEA to pull out, that would be stupid on their part.
I'm pretty sure National Socialist German Workers' Party had the majority of votes by the time they got in charge of Germany, and the reason I make this comparison is because their campaigns were full of lies and propaganda, much like the leave campaign, and so when people are not careful and are not critical of democracy (posting pictures of babies to make fun of protesters, being anti-intellectual) bad things will happen such as a pretty large increase in hate crimes, economic collapse and isolation. So simply arguing that not following the referendum because it is undemocratic is to ignore all the complexities about this issue.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50634420]Well we know for next time to set proper rules surrounding the percentages. This isn't just one of those times.[/QUOTE] The proper rules being that the minority should have greater say over the majority because clearly their line of thinking is the "correct" one?
[QUOTE=Bazsil;50639090]The proper rules being that the minority should have greater say over the majority because clearly their line of thinking is the "correct" one?[/QUOTE] The proper rules being that half the country shouldn't be fucked in the ass through something as extreme as leaving the EU. If it had been a narrow win for remain, would staying in the EU threaten the job security and future of the pro-leave? I doubt it. Leaving the EU is just too extreme for it to be triggered by merely half the population being brainwashed into it.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50639257]The proper rules being that half the country shouldn't be fucked in the ass through something as extreme as leaving the EU. If it had been a narrow win for remain, would staying in the EU threaten the job security and future of the pro-leave? I doubt it. Leaving the EU is just too extreme for it to be triggered by merely half the population being brainwashed into it.[/QUOTE] Just think. If Remain had won, we'd be riding on £1:$1.50.
[QUOTE=CMB Unit 01;50639369]Just think. If Remain had won, we'd be riding on £1:$1.50.[/QUOTE] Yea i've booked two holidays over summer to celebrate finishing my degree. Those are gonna cost about 1/4 more now :/ Just converted a bunch of cash too cause the pound is no doubt gonna sink more this week.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50638401]We don't know how it will turn out, this is basically new territory. No country, this large and vital to the EU has left before. There will be damage to both sides, everyone knows this. [/QUOTE] The UK isn't vital to the EU. The EU, however, is pretty fucking important to the UK. Also I already explained to you that yeah we do know how it will turn out. But against scientific sources the only thing you have is "There are totally secret backroom deals happening!" What exactly makes you think that the UK will get any better deals now that people know it wants to leave one of the biggest economies (and the thing that's basically the main factor in a huge portion of its GDP)
[QUOTE=wystan;50638304]I want to make a clear distinction between Nationalism and Jingoism, pride and self-determination are not outdated. There are plenty of fine avenues for expressing nationalistic pride for your country, I like to think of the Olympics or the World Cup as a good example. This can be expanded on, in more scientific examples such as the ISS, whose modules displays all the individual flags of nations that should be proud to contribute to such a technological and political entity.[/QUOTE]Eh, i've always used patriotism in that context instead; can't extricate nationalism in my mind from the sort of mindset that e.g. fuelled WW1 and the like.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;50635102]to leave out [B]half the population[/B][/QUOTE] 48% = 1/2? [QUOTE=carcarcargo;50635138] If 51% of people voted to shoot black people on sight would you still be arguing it's totally fine because it's democratic?[/QUOTE] Equating leaving an organisation to shooting black people. Cute. Hey, if I leave my gym, that means I hate the jews! Cos, you know.... [QUOTE=Big Bang;50635247]You're aware that the reason why Venezuela is how it is, is due to a majority of Venezuelans voting to elect Chavez in 1999, and then Maduro in 2013? A massively ignorant and manipulated majority became a blind instrument of their own destruction, does that ring a bell to you?[/QUOTE] The 51% didn't vote for a screwit socialist general and a delusional socialist/commie bus driver. They voted against that kind of thing that has caused Venezuela so many problems. Anyway we already had Blair/Brown, forewarned is forearmed. [QUOTE=MarcusSmith;50635366]I'm all in that if the "Remain" would've won by 51% as well, leavers who say "muh sovereignity" would be lamenting right now.[/QUOTE] And now you will never know! [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50635256]It has been clearly explained, a thousand and one times now how this is a poor representation of democracy[/QUOTE] You just say its poor when the results go against you. Clearly dictatorship is more your thing. [QUOTE=Sitkero;50635320] But of course those counterpoints are just gonna be ignored again because 'democracy, will of the people, you're just mad because your result didn't win!'[/QUOTE] You ARE mad aren't you? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;50635795]the referendum isn't legally binding so it can be still overturned [/QUOTE] Only someone monumentally stupid would try and have it overturned. The will of the majority IS the law, not a bunch of uptight lawyers and hipsters who didn't like the result.
maybe because im american i just dont understand the situation but wasnt this a public vote? thats democracy 100%. if there was a fair result then what are these protests really about?
[QUOTE=Meester;50645475]Only someone monumentally stupid would try and have it overturned. The will of the majority IS the law, not a bunch of uptight lawyers and hipsters who didn't like the result.[/QUOTE] The will of the majority if only law is it goes through parliament first. The referendum doesn't mean anything until article 50 is triggered.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;50645624]maybe because im american i just dont understand the situation but wasnt this a public vote? thats democracy 100%. if there was a fair result then what are these protests really about?[/QUOTE] basically a lot of people feel the Leave campaign was extremely dishonest in attaining this majority, peddling stuff like how we spent £350 million a year on the EU and promising to use it on the NHS instead (which they went back on less than 24 hours later), or banking on fears of Turkey joining the EU (which will never happen). then the sterling and the stock market immediately went south, a number of county councils and institutions lost their EU funding, and tons of businesses are leaving and taking tens of thousands of jobs away each, which Leave obviously didn't see fit to mention. and also the reaction of the Leave campaign's figureheads has been extremely ominous, suggesting that, like their voters, they never actually meant to leave and simply did it as a protest against David Cameron. and now the negative consequences of us leaving have been made clear it's argued that Leave no longer necessarily holds the majority, and thus leaving would now actually be [I]against[/I] our interests. and even so a number of people just feel that it being democratic doesn't make it good for us, which is true, and even that it never should have been put to a vote in the first place because of the media manipulation from both camps.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50645634]The will of the majority if only law is it goes through parliament first. [/QUOTE] And Parliament will see it through because they are being forced to. Or they will be if they don't.
[QUOTE=Meester;50645475]The 51% didn't vote for a screwit socialist general and a delusional socialist/commie bus driver. They voted against that kind of thing that has caused Venezuela so many problems.[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you even talking about? Immigration? Venezuela is like it is because we took on thousands of Italian, Portuguese and Spanish families in the 1950s? Socialism, the sort of socialism that actually works not the Venezuelan faux variety? What? What did they vote on that will improve your life? Left wing policies? Is this what you're complaining about? How is ANYTHING concrete achieved by leaving the EU?
[QUOTE=Meester;50647276]And Parliament will see it through because they are being forced to. Or they will be if they don't.[/QUOTE] There is precedent for ignoring referendums or calling a second one while saying "are you [i]really[/i] sure about this?"
[QUOTE=Big Bang;50647331]What the fuck are you even talking about? Immigration? Venezuela is like it is because we took on thousands of Italian, Portuguese and Spanish families in the 1950s? Socialism, the sort of socialism that actually works not the Venezuelan faux variety? What? What did they vote on that will improve your life? Left wing policies? Is this what you're complaining about? How is ANYTHING concrete achieved by leaving the EU?[/QUOTE] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1524117&p=50635289&viewfull=1#post50635289]I don't think you're talking to a very level headed individual.[/url] I really don't think he understands what he's talking about but either way I wouldn't even bother honestly, the nonsense he spews all over the place just isn't worth talking about. I mean he can't even understand how 48% would be considered half the population for fucks sake. :v:
[QUOTE=LSK;50647373] I mean he can't even understand how 48% would be considered half the population for fucks sake. :v:[/QUOTE] Divide 100% by 2 on your calculator. What is the number you get. Tell me the answer. [QUOTE=Big Bang;50647331]What the fuck are you even talking about? Immigration? Venezuela is like it is because we took on thousands of Italian, Portuguese and Spanish families in the 1950s? Socialism, the sort of socialism that actually works not the Venezuelan faux variety? What? What did they vote on that will improve your life? Left wing policies? Is this what you're complaining about? How is ANYTHING concrete achieved by leaving the EU?[/QUOTE] Chavez and Maduro [though he's prob a commie] ARE socialists. They have impoverished their nation and the EU another great grand socialist project has impoverished Greece and much of the Mediterranean. The great and good 51% have voted against vanity socialist projects like the EU. Now this is not to say that there are NO good socialist ideas, the NHS is a great thing. Its just a lot of socialist projects are rooted in fantasy not reality. And no I am not talking about immigration. [QUOTE=Headhumpy;50647347]There is precedent for ignoring referendums or calling a second one while saying "are you [i]really[/i] sure about this?"[/QUOTE] Oh they can ignore it or call a second one. But only if Parliament itself doesn't want to survive. So when that doesn't happen I will be happy to accept your apology.
[QUOTE=Meester;50648039]Chavez and Maduro [though he's prob a commie] ARE socialists. They have impoverished their nation and the EU another great grand socialist project has impoverished Greece and much of the Mediterranean. The great and good 51% have voted against vanity socialist projects like the EU. Now this is not to say that there are NO good socialist ideas, the NHS is a great thing. Its just a lot of socialist projects are rooted in fantasy not reality. And no I am not talking about immigration.[/QUOTE] You understand nothing about Venezuela, or Europe, or Greece. If there's one thing that Venezuela and Greece (Or Italy for that matter since you included the Mediterranean) have in common, is that corruption ruined them. The failure of Venezuela, a topic on which I find it astounding that you're trying to school me on since I have both been witness and a victim of, is due to policies not even the maddest of the mad in Europe would dare to implement, things like currency controls or fixing food prices to an artificially low price with oil subsidies. Similarly astounding is that you feel that the EU has in any way impoverished any country, which is false by all metrics. It particularly hasn't impoverished the UK in any way, which is the topic at hand, it's in no way a vanity project, it's a system that the whole world wishes to imitate.
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;50649160]What major role does UK play in the grand scale of the EU? Wasn't everybody sorta sick and tired of UKs shit in the EU anyways? All UK is doing is not shooting itself in the foot, but blowing both legs clean off and EU won't be much worse without the UK. It's just the inital shock of them doing something stupid as this and after that it'll continue like nothing happened[/QUOTE] UK is the EU primary source of Farage
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;50649160]What major role does UK play in the grand scale of the EU? Wasn't everybody sorta sick and tired of UKs shit in the EU anyways? All UK is doing is not shooting itself in the foot, but blowing both legs clean off and EU won't be much worse without the UK. It's just the inital shock of them doing something stupid as this and after that it'll continue like nothing happened[/QUOTE] The UK is just a large economy in the EU, overall the EU will be weaker because of it. If anything, the UK is blowing one leg off, at the same time shooting the EU in the foot on its way out of the door.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50649761]The UK is just a large economy in the EU, overall the EU will be weaker because of it. If anything, the UK is blowing one leg off, at the same time shooting the EU in the foot on its way out of the door.[/QUOTE] So the UK and the EU lose out. Remind me why you are so adamant leaving was a good idea?
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;50649181]I think the EU has enough of Farage-like people around which hopefully will be dumped out from any position of power after this fiasco[/QUOTE] Probably the opposite. If we leave and do fine they'll further their rhetoric and probably see more countries attempt to leave. Edit : And if we don't then...shit. We're the guinea pigs here.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50649761]The UK is just a large economy in the EU, overall the EU will be weaker because of it. If anything, the UK is blowing one leg off, at the same time shooting the EU in the foot on its way out of the door.[/QUOTE] Please tell me one irrefutable reason for leaving the EU that actually benefits any of us [QUOTE=Occlusion;50649798]Probably the opposite. If we leave and do fine they'll further their rhetoric and probably see more countries attempt to leave. Edit : And if we don't then...shit. We're the guinea pigs here.[/QUOTE] The fun part will be when smaller countries leave. It's bad for us, but it would be one hell of a shit storm for countries far more reliant on the EU.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.