• Israel's warplanes strike on northern Gaza Strip
    74 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;24767528]Uhh... Imagine living in France where a few idiots send tiny rockets that have killed around 28 people in total, [B]ever.[/B] Now imagine sitting at home, not being safe AT ALL because Israel finds a way to make it sound like bombing YOUR house is the right thing to do, killing you and your entire family hoping they get the bad guys in there somewhere. Hamas's attacks are fucking shit, they can barely kill anything. Palestinians are the ones who are suffering here and yet the media ignores it and would rather make them look like the bad people. Plus, wouldn't a smarter decision be some ANTI-MISSLE DEFENSES? I don't care if this starts a shitstorm, I'm going to state my overall opinion: Fuck Israel. [editline]01:33AM[/editline] Read this and tell me Israel is only defending itself. [URL]http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272?OpenDocument[/URL] [editline]01:37AM[/editline] "Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007."[/FONT] (Before any idiot misunderstands the fact, the 22 deaths per month were not from the missle attacks.)[/QUOTE] "Israel killed more civilians overall even though the Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians and Israel isn't this means Israel is more evil".
[QUOTE=Sir Muffin;24768807]You're a moron. Come back when you've learned to use basic logic.[/QUOTE] I'm Palestinian, so that make me a little biased at my dead/jailed relatives that people seem to disagree were ever killed/were ever innocent/whatever you want. Bandwagonning? I don't think so. And I said it was my opinion, no one really asked you to agree, or even comment so shh. [editline]09:57AM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;24773834]"Israel killed more civilians overall even though the Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians and Israel isn't this means Israel is more evil".[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say Israel are targetting the civilians, I will say they aren't exactly making sure that the civilians aren't caught in the crossfire. They obviously care very little for the Palestinian people if they cut off their food, medicine, and humanitarian supllies and then carelessly send air strikes on open areas. [editline]10:00AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Red Toaster;24769433]israel has all the money they will ever need, straight from big ol' red white and blue[/QUOTE] Israel have the natural resources to stay self sufficient for another 20 years, I wouldn't exactly jump to those kind of conclusions. [editline]10:01AM[/editline] [QUOTE=OleWally;24769197]Media trying to make Israel look like the good guys? Where is this media outside of Israel? And why does it matter that only a few have been killed in rocket specific attacks when many, many more have been killed in total.[/QUOTE] America? And you're right, Israelis shouldn't have died either. But if you noticed isn't it more of an overkill than self defense when the death toll for Palestinians almost quadruples those of Israelis?
[QUOTE=Lyoko2;24755290]imagine yourself living in Uk while France sends tiny rockets that makes explosions across your city... Imagine yourself scared to death of leaving your house just because of exploding terrorists. I know it sounds NOT Logical, BUT its the situation in Israel, Eliminating terrorists by F16 sounds very reasonable, you guys can't show me example that shows otherwise.[/QUOTE] The majority of Israel is pretty peaceful. I know from first hand experience. :colbert:
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;24774537]I wouldn't say Israel are targetting the civilians, I will say they aren't exactly making sure that the civilians aren't caught in the crossfire. They obviously care very little for the Palestinian people if they cut off their food, medicine, and humanitarian supllies and then carelessly send air strikes on open areas.[/quote]They allow most medical supplies in but importing equipment and such is restricted for security reasons. There are a lot of problems with having the right equipment and a proper care system but that's not really Israels fault. Air strikes and bombing attacks are fairly precise now so the minimal amount of damage is done. If they were to just bomb indiscriminately then there would be a mountain of casualties so they must care in some respect. [quote]Israel have the natural resources to stay self sufficient for another 20 years, I wouldn't exactly jump to those kind of conclusions.[/quote]Israel produces a lot of high tech equipment and also makes about 10% of the worlds weapons production. They aren't really a rescource based economy, they have lots of other things they make. It's also definitely a renewable income so even when the oil wells of Saudi Arabia are dry, they can still keep on making stuff so don't get your hopes up for an economic collapse any time soon. [quote]America? And you're right, Israelis shouldn't have died either. But if you noticed isn't it more of an overkill than self defense when the death toll for Palestinians almost quadruples those of Israelis?[/QUOTE]There's a pretty good reason for that. If Hamas were to bring the fight to Israel then there would be a fair few Israelis killed but because most of the fighting is done on Palestinian soil, it doesn't seem logical that Israelis would die there. Along with having the home field disadvantage, Gaza also have a much lower standard of living than Israel. Israelis have bunkers, Gazans have nothing. Israelis have access to good medical care, Gazans don't. Israelis are prepared and know what to do in case of an atttack, Gazans aren't. You could argue that it's excessive use of force but the number of factors makes it impossible to determine if they have overreacted or if Gazans are just easier to kill.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;24774537]I wouldn't say Israel are targetting the civilians, I will say they aren't exactly making sure that the civilians aren't caught in the crossfire. They obviously care very little for the Palestinian people if they cut off their food, medicine, and humanitarian supllies and then carelessly send air strikes on open areas.[/QUOTE] Israel could have ended operation cast lead in 1 day by killing off the heads of the Hamas, but at the cost of hundreds of civilian casualties, so it was decided to wait for a better opportunity to take them out. That's not carelessly sending air strikes. Also, Israel allowed basic humanitarian aid throughout the entire blockade, only products which were deemed luxurious were banned, stuff that anyone in a humanitarian crisis wouldn't need anyway. And right now the blockade doesn't restrict anything except for weapons or materials that can help the Hamas in acquiring weapons, like construction materials for their tunnels, however, construction materials are still allowed when humanitarian aid groups are the ones asking for them. [editline]12:45PM[/editline] Also I'd like to ask how can your relatives who are in the West Bank tell what is happening in Gaza? Unless they count on the news and stuff, which means they know pretty much what we know too.
First off I'd like to thank you for bringing a good debate to the table, rather than just going "You're stupid lol". [QUOTE=Devodiere;24774971]They allow most medical supplies in but importing equipment and such is restricted for security reasons. There are a lot of problems with having the right equipment and a proper care system but that's not really Israels fault. Air strikes and bombing attacks are fairly precise now so the minimal amount of damage is done. If they were to just bomb indiscriminately then there would be a mountain of casualties so they must care in some respect.[/quote] Well I mean, the Gaza bombings in December 2008 had pretty much a mountain of casualties. [url]http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/gaza.war_1_hamas-militants-john-ging-rockets-into-southern-israel?_s=PM:WORLD[/url] [quote]Israel produces a lot of high tech equipment and also makes about 10% of the worlds weapons production. They aren't really a rescource based economy, they have lots of other things they make. It's also definitely a renewable income so even when the oil wells of Saudi Arabia are dry, they can still keep on making stuff so don't get your hopes up for an economic collapse any time soon.[/quote] You're right, but on top of that: [url]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132283[/url] [quote]There's a pretty good reason for that. If Hamas were to bring the fight to Israel then there would be a fair few Israelis killed but because most of the fighting is done on Palestinian soil, it doesn't seem logical that Israelis would die there. Along with having the home field disadvantage, Gaza also have a much lower standard of living than Israel. Israelis have bunkers, Gazans have nothing. Israelis have access to good medical care, Gazans don't. Israelis are prepared and know what to do in case of an atttack, Gazans aren't. You could argue that it's excessive use of force but the number of factors makes it impossible to determine if they have overreacted or if Gazans are just easier to kill.[/QUOTE] Hamas couldn't bring the fight to Israel because it would obviously mean an obvious defeat, sure it was stupid of them to attack all the way from Gaza but it's also stupid that they'd be attacking what could crush them in moments. My point is that Israel should know better than to send phosphorous bombs and air strikes, etc. They can track down suspects and search for evidence and put them on trial, or even kill them then if they want to. Problem here is that the civilian casualties, especially the children is just so high and nobody seems to care or believe it. [editline]10:52AM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;24775007]Also I'd like to ask how can your relatives who are in the West Bank tell what is happening in Gaza? Unless they count on the news and stuff, which means they know pretty much what we know too.[/QUOTE] Palestinians or Arabs even are known for having large families, word from Gaza will always leak to West Bank. Israel might be bombing some tunnels but not all, and though weapons do go through it's also good for some people who try to escape to move to Jordan/Egypt or wherever so they can get a job in farming or something, and from there they'd contact their family in the West Bank. Word travels fast in conditions like these suprisingly.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;24775065]Well I mean, the Gaza bombings in December 2008 had pretty much a mountain of casualties. [url]http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/gaza.war_1_hamas-militants-john-ging-rockets-into-southern-israel?_s=PM:WORLD[/url][/quote] Yeah they kinda fucked up Cast Lead. It's never going to be easy waging a direct attack on a civilian populated city and they were more interested in killing Hamas rather than not killing civies. It doesn't really seem to be a continued attitude as they are doing a bit better now but I guess that can be also attributed to less Hamas around. [quote]You're right, but on top of that: [url]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132283[/url][/quote] That website looks kinda sus but either way, I don't think anyone really intends their countries natural resources to be their only source. The US has plenty of Oil in the Texan fields but they still go for Arab oil to keep their own supply safe. There's a lot more than just natural gas needed to maintain a country too so their only self sufficent in one area. Kinda silly really but the related links to that story are pretty funny. [quote]Hamas couldn't bring the fight to Israel because it would obviously mean an obvious defeat, sure it was stupid of them to attack all the way from Gaza but it's also stupid that they'd be attacking what could crush them in moments. My point is that Israel should know better than to send phosphorous bombs and air strikes, etc. They can track down suspects and search for evidence and put them on trial, or even kill them then if they want to. Problem here is that the civilian casualties, especially the children is just so high and nobody seems to care or believe it.[/quote] Well no-one ever used phosphorus bombs, the ones used were smokescreen rounds that they fied over civilian areas inappropriately. It was stupid of them to do it but it's more like shooting someone with a flare instead of a flamethrower, it shouldn't be used like that and does nowhere near as much as the alternative. Air strikes on the other hand are actually one of the better methods for taking out targets as smart bombs can isolate a single building which when compared to dumb bombs flattening a city block is far better. The main reason they are doing this is because they were forced to pull out of Gaza in 2005 and cannot send troops in to do police action. This is because they were considered occupying them and people screaming Free Gaza did not have any idea of the shit that would take place when they no longer provided an adequate security force. If they could send troops in and arrest them then sure but most of them are considered soldiers and are more often shot rather than arrested. If I recall correctly, the reason for the high number of child casualties is due to the abnormaly high percentage of the population under 18. It's not like they are intentionaly targeting places children would be, they are just more likely to be hurt as there are more of them than other places. There's also a lot of attention towards it so it's not a far off corner of the world. Far more attention goes into the few deaths in Gaza than the thousands in other countries.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;24775575]Yeah they kinda fucked up Cast Lead. It's never going to be easy waging a direct attack on a civilian populated city and they were more interested in killing Hamas rather than not killing civies. It doesn't really seem to be a continued attitude as they are doing a bit better now but I guess that can be also attributed to less Hamas around.[/QUOTE] You'd think that, but a friend of my mothers was recently evicted of her apartment in Jerusalem simply because she was Palestinian. Though the amount of killings might have gone down it doesn't excuse the extreme prejudice. [quote]That website looks kinda sus but either way, I don't think anyone really intends their countries natural resources to be their only source. The US has plenty of Oil in the Texan fields but they still go for Arab oil to keep their own supply safe. There's a lot more than just natural gas needed to maintain a country too so their only self sufficent in one area. Kinda silly really but the related links to that story are pretty funny.[/quote]True enough, but I think the point of the article is that even without any external help Israel can run for another 20 years on its own. [quote]Well no-one ever used phosphorus bombs, the ones used were smokescreen rounds that they fied over civilian areas inappropriately. It was stupid of them to do it but [B]it's more like shooting someone with a flare instead of a flamethrower, it shouldn't be used like that and does nowhere near as much as the alternative.[/B] Air strikes on the other hand are actually one of the better methods for taking out targets as smart bombs can isolate a single building which when compared to dumb bombs flattening a city block is far better.[/quote] [URL="http://youtube.com/watch?v=X73idhOLK7o"][media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=X73idhOLK7o[/URL][/media] Sorry if you're faint hearted but I think I need to get this point across. [media][URL]http://youtube.com/watch?v=G6VPPv2kC1c[/URL][/media] I'll translate: Interviewer: Peace be upon you Luay Luay: Peace be upon you too Interviewer: Luay, what happened to you? Luay: Honestly, everyone said that the Israelis were coming. We went home and we took our food, drinks, clothes, everything. So we walked out of the house, and my brother called my father. He asked if he could get the water container. He said 'Sure, I can.' My father and sister went back to go get it. We were just waiting there outside, waiting and waiting and then that's when they hit us. Interviewer: What happened to you when the bombs hit you? Luay: -silence- We were hit and injured, the three of us. Interviewer: Then what happened? Were you brought to a hospital? Luay: First, we brought out the girls who were inside (The house set on fire) and my father arrived. He wrapped us in blankets and took us to the gate of Beit Lahia, the one near the mosque. Then the ambulance came, left the others out there and took me to the Shifa hospital in Gaza. Thank you. (Implying that the interviewer was now annoying him and he wasnt willing to answer any more questions.) [media][URL]http://youtube.com/watch?v=W1ToCDgNn1Q[/URL][/media] [U][media][/U][URL]http://youtube.com/watch?v=lctDgwS1BAU[/URL][/media] I think the point's already been proven after those videos. I agree with your other points, though.
Conspiracy, you might be bringing personal accounts on things that happened to your family and friends, but that's not good enough. I'm not saying you're lying, and you might have not been lied to, but it's absurd to suggest that someone was evicted from her house in Jerusalem because she's Palestinian. The recent house demolishing for example, about two months ago I believe, were because the residents did not have the right permits, therefore them living there was illegal. Their houses were also in an extremely poor condition, with no proper water and electricity supply, houses like these almost always get demolished all over the world, not just Israel. So while your family or friends might believe that it's just because they're Palestinians, that doesn't necessarily make it true.
Israel was defending themselves, what's the problem? They can't let attacks go unnoticed.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;24777065]Conspiracy, you might be bringing personal accounts on things that happened to your family and friends, but that's not good enough. I'm not saying you're lying, and you might have not been lied to, but it's absurd to suggest that someone was evicted from her house in Jerusalem because she's Palestinian. The recent house demolishing for example, about two months ago I believe, were because the residents did not have the right permits, therefore them living there was illegal. Their houses were also in an extremely poor condition, with no proper water and electricity supply, houses like these almost always get demolished all over the world, not just Israel. So while your family or friends might believe that it's just because they're Palestinians, that doesn't necessarily make it true.[/QUOTE] It wasn't a slum, she had an actual house that had existed even before the conflict broke out. She lived in Israel as a Palestinian, and I supposed Israel believe that without Israeli citizenship a Palestinian belongs in either the West Bank or god-forbid Gaza. It's their country now I suppose they can do what they want. And this is what I dislike about arguing on this subject, it's that nobody reports these kinds of things that happen. I understand your skepticism and I would honestly act the same if my mother wasn't directly friends with her.
Well I didn't mean that this incident I was talking about is exactly what happen to your mother's friend, just gave an example. If she or her family lived there even before '48 then I guess there's even less legitimate reasons why she was evacuated, since everyone in Israel's part of Jerusalem got a permit after the war in '49, as with all Arabs living in Israeli land.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;24777307]Well I didn't mean that this incident I was talking about is exactly what happen to your mother's friend, just gave an example. If she or her family lived there even before '48 then I guess there's even less legitimate reasons why she was evacuated, since everyone in Israel's part of Jerusalem got a permit after the war in '49, as with all Arabs living in Israeli land.[/QUOTE] Not true, my father's an Arab from Haifa and we got no such thing. I'm sure they gave some and missed out a few.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;24777386]Not true, my father's an Arab from Haifa and we got no such thing. I'm sure they gave some and missed out a few.[/QUOTE] I meant the Arabs that stayed in Israel in '48, the ones that were in Israel's UN-defined territories before the war broke out.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;24776967]WP bullshit[/quote]Oh boy, here we go again. What point exactly were you trying to make? That WP is bad? I know what it does and the kind of burns it inflicts. It doesn't change how they used it. It wasn't used with the intention of burning anyone so if you think they did it on purpose, it was just through incompetence rather than malice. They shouldn't have done it and it was a massive fuckup, I know it, they know it, everyone fucking knows it. White Phosphorus is the best chemical agent we have for making good and impenetrable smoke, it is used by everyone as it is such a good smokescreen. It is not an incendiary weapon and while if used innapropriately can do severe damage, is not illegal by any stretch of UN guidelines. Post some more gore why don't you, I'm sure it'll make a good substitute for actual understanding. After all, White Phosphorus is the worst thing that anyones used besides gases, actual flamethrowers, hollow points, depleted uranium, landmines, or basicly any explosive or gun currently used. White Phosphorus makes a good photo op, the thought of it burning you is a horrible image, it leaves them maimed and disfigured, just like almost every other weapon out there.
What's wrong here? Somebody launched a rocket at them.
Actually WP is illegal under some conditions, like any weapon, but Israel didn't break any rules regarding WP during Cast Lead.
GUYS GUYS GUYS! This is how i as a conservative think this needs to be handled. The US needs to just supply them with munition's and nothing more. Let the dogs loose.
There really are no 'good guys' in this conflict. The entire situation is complex to say the least.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;24778008]Actually WP is illegal under some conditions, like any weapon, but Israel didn't break any rules regarding WP during Cast Lead.[/QUOTE] Rules in war are a stupid concept.
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;24778416]Rules in war are a stupid concept.[/QUOTE] How so? I know that I feel safe knowing that if an enemy nation (or several of them) managed somehow to conquer my country, they will have to follow the rules of war so as to not harm me and my family: innocent civilians. Obviously they don't have to follow them, but at least it's better than having no rules at all and then they'll do whatever they want without anything even trying to stop them.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;24778778]How so? I know that I feel safe knowing that if an enemy nation (or several of them) managed somehow to conquer my country, they will have to follow the rules of war so as to not harm me and my family: innocent civilians. [b]Obviously they don't have to follow them[/b], but at least it's better than having no rules at all and then they'll do whatever they want without anything even trying to stop them.[/QUOTE] There's why it's stupid. You limit your own power knowing that the enemy might not.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;24777119]Israel was defending themselves, what's the problem? They can't let attacks go unnoticed.[/QUOTE] Defending themselves against what? A bunch of mud huts and bottle rockets made of plumbing fixtures?
[QUOTE=aydin690;24784610]Defending themselves against what? A bunch of mud huts and bottle rockets made of plumbing fixtures?[/QUOTE] The problem is, the vast majority of these bottles were made by undercover aliens using their advanced technology. These aliens were sent there by Satan and are trying to destroy the Holy Land. As it has been predicted by the Holy Book of Maya, the process of destruction of the Holy Land will be completed in 2012. This is the reason why so many nations are supporting Israel - to defend the Earth and the Holy Land from undercover Muslim aliens working for Satan.
[QUOTE=aydin690;24784610]Defending themselves against what? A bunch of mud huts and bottle rockets made of plumbing fixtures?[/QUOTE] I really hate people who use that argument. Don't use it ever again.
[QUOTE=smartdog;24784671]I really hate people who use that argument. Don't use it ever again.[/QUOTE] It's true though. [editline]12:44PM[/editline] Here's a Palestinian "rocket". Oooh, so deadly!! [IMG]http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/gaza_01_07/g07_17466021.jpg[/IMG] and here's a picture of a Palestinian mud hut [U]suspected[/U] of making weapons which was bombed by an Israeli air force F-16: [IMG]http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/gaza_01_07/g13_17476497.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=aydin690;24784610]Defending themselves against what? A bunch of mud huts and bottle rockets made of plumbing fixtures?[/QUOTE] That's like the police saying, "Oh, It's just a robbery... We only deal with murderers now." The attackers need to know that if they pull any shit they are going to retaliated on.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;24786526]That's like the police saying, "Oh, It's just a robbery... We only deal with murderers now." The attackers need to know that if they pull any shit they are going to retaliated on.[/QUOTE] Bombing entire villages/regions because one person might have done something? With that logic US airforce should be bombing Harlem day and night.
[QUOTE=aydin690;24787517]Bombing entire villages/regions because one person might have done something? With that logic US airforce should be bombing Harlem day and night.[/QUOTE] Except Israel only bombs targets it knows have recently (and by that I mean only a few minutes earlier) launched rockets or rocket manufacturing sites and stuff like that.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;24791045]Except Israel only bombs targets it knows have recently (and by that I mean only a few minutes earlier) launched rockets or rocket manufacturing sites and stuff like that.[/QUOTE] And we all know that they are 100% correct, every time. :downs:
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