White Students Kicked From Meeting For Not Being Racialized - Polidicks

[QUOTE=_Axel;47348740]That seems reasonable, though that could be generalized to having no assumptions about how other people live their lives. What I don't like is when people use this notion to claim that "privileged" people can't understand what "unprivileged" people do, and that they thus shouldn't have a say in anything related to racism or sexism.[/QUOTE] I get cheesed off when cisgender people try to comment on what it means to be transgender when they've [I]never experienced the hardships or struggles of being transgender[/I]. I would think it's the same thing when white folk try to fit themselves into discussions like that when they have no actual experience of being black or asian or etc. When I comes to certain topics or groups, privileged people's opinion literally does not matter since their opinions are formed from experiences that [I]lack[/I] whatever they're trying to talk about. I wouldn't expect the opinion of someone who tries to explain what it's like to be suicidal and how difficult it can be, when that person hasn't ever been suicidal, to be regarded nearly as legitimate as someone who has actually been suicidal. Sure, they can describe what other people have felt and the symptoms of depression and such, but the most they can do is sympathize rather than truly empathize, and they run the risk of providing advice or a position that is unhelpful or even harmful.

[QUOTE=Smallheart;47348764]I can and do completely abide by that, I guess I was mistaken in my understanding. I've run into several people who, during any kind of debate involving race in any way, will throw the, "check your privilege," card, as if it trumps any and all forms of logic, and as if me being white makes me inherently wrong about any argument I present that doesn't automatically support the racial minority, even if actual evidence and non-biased fact don't either. I am absolutely for equal rights for all and agree that I am more privaleged in the aspects you outlined, but several times I've been told to check my privalege, (or to shut the fuck up, essentially) even though race really had nothing to do with the situation at hand, but if I try to move forward in the discussion I'm labelled as a racist. And for the record, I'm not, I treat all people equally regardless of race, I have a black uncle (adoptive) who is so close in age and was around so much he's more of a big brother to me, and my best friend of 20 years is of Mexican descent. I also have more gay friends than straight friends. (I shouldn't have to try and prove that I'm not a racist/bigot but that's literally how bad it's been sometimes.)[/QUOTE] Another thing I'd criticize the privilege concept for is that it concentrates too much on demographics and not enough on individuals. It generalizes observations of certain demographics to everybody. For instance, on average black people are more discriminated against than white people in western countries. Does that mean that any black person is more unfairly treated than any white person? No, and that's something a lot of people don't take into account when considering privilege. Any kind of generalization, such as labeling people as privileged or unprivileged based on racial or sexual treats, is bound to lead to mistakes and inaccuracies, hence why I think simply being aware that everybody's different is a superior mindset.

[URL="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/15/the-privilege-of-checking-white-privilege.html#"]Here's an article that I think illustrates my point.[/URL] Again, I'm not attempting to de-legitimize anyone's struggles or hardships, and I fully acknowledge them as real and unfair. I'm just trying to help you see from my perspective, because honestly it's made me feel squashed and disregarded because of my skin color, and isn't that the opposite of what we're all trying to achieve here? [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] Also for anyone who's concerned with the intent of the article based on potential racial bias (though if you are really concerned with equality you wouldn't care) the author is black, allowing him the perspective of being personally less privaleged than if he were white, and, according to the people who I have been shit on by that I referenced in my comment above, (not the people here, the people I've debated with who essentially told me to shut the fuck up) is actually qualified to talk about the issue.

[QUOTE=JIDF-Shlomo;47347160]They also say "Racism against whites doesn't exist! You can't be racist against whites!"[/QUOTE] that's true though you can be prejudice against white people, sure. but actual racism involves prejudice + oppression from a position of power within a society where marginalized people are targeted. [B]this isn't anything new.[/B] this isn't that tumblr shit you people love to fucking bring up at any possible moment, this is a sociological issue.

[QUOTE=Levithan;47348813]I get cheesed off when cisgender people try to comment on what it means to be transgender when they've [I]never experienced the hardships or struggles of being transgender[/I]. I would think it's the same thing when white folk try to fit themselves into discussions like that when they have no actual experience of being black or asian or etc. When I comes to certain topics or groups, privileged people's opinion literally does not matter since their opinions are formed from experiences that [I]lack[/I] whatever they're trying to talk about. I wouldn't expect the opinion of someone who tries to explain what it's like to be suicidal and how difficult it can be, when that person hasn't ever been suicidal, to be regarded nearly as legitimate as someone who has actually been suicidal. Sure, they can describe what other people have felt and the symptoms of depression and such, but the most they can do is sympathize rather than truly empathize, and they run the risk of providing advice or a position that is unhelpful or even harmful.[/QUOTE] Not every knowledge comes from first-hand experience. It might not be as accurate as a first-hand account, but people are able to understand others' feelings when they are conveyed through words. Psychologists might not have mental problems themselves, that doesn't mean they aren't able to understand mental illnesses, often more accurately than their patients. A psychologist's advice on how to treat suicidal thoughts would probably be more useful than advice from a suicidal person who are themselves struggling with these thoughts, and thus don't know how to properly address them. Otherwise there wouldn't be much use in consulting psychologists... Most humans are also capable of empathy, which means they can imagine themselves in another person's place. It might not be as accurate, but it can still offer some kind of insight for privileged people. I'm also concerned when you say privileged people's opinions shouldn't matter. What kind of opinions are we talking about here? Because aside from how other people feel, I don't see what the concept of privilege has to do with anything. Speaking of which, claiming that your feelings are representative of everyone in your demographic doesn't make it much more true than privileged people doing the same thing. Again, the concept of privilege doesn't seem to be of much use compared to knowing that people have different feelings.

One thing I never understood was people redefining racism. Racism = prejudice against race, right? At least, from what I understand. So when you call people out on that being the definition of racism, they start saying "no, what I mean is systematic racism", to which I think "then say systematic racism". There's a difference and I think replacing racism with systematic racism just causes a bigger problem of misunderstanding and also gets rid of racism's original definition. What I really mean is I think "racism" should just be kept at "prejudice against a race". It seems like it'd be a lot easier that way.

How do we go 2 pages with nobody bitching about a source? [url]http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/16/two-students-barred-from-meeting-at-ryerson-university-because-they-were-not-racialised/[/url]

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47348874]that's true though you can be prejudice against white people, sure. but actual racism involves prejudice + oppression from a position of power within a society where marginalized people are targeted. [B]this isn't anything new.[/B] this isn't that tumblr shit you people love to fucking bring up at any possible moment, this is a sociological issue.[/QUOTE] That's not "actual racism", that's systematic racism. Otherwise what's to stop me from saying antisemitism doesn't exist because many people in positions of power are Jews?

[QUOTE=Levithan;47348813]I get cheesed off when cisgender people try to comment on what it means to be transgender when they've [I]never experienced the hardships or struggles of being transgender[/I]. I would think it's the same thing when white folk try to fit themselves into discussions like that when they have no actual experience of being black or asian or etc. When I comes to certain topics or groups, privileged people's opinion literally does not matter since their opinions are formed from experiences that [I]lack[/I] whatever they're trying to talk about. I wouldn't expect the opinion of someone who tries to explain what it's like to be suicidal and how difficult it can be, when that person hasn't ever been suicidal, to be regarded nearly as legitimate as someone who has actually been suicidal. Sure, they can describe what other people have felt and the symptoms of depression and such, but the most they can do is sympathize rather than truly empathize, and they run the risk of providing advice or a position that is unhelpful or even harmful.[/QUOTE] With all due respect, by you telling me that my privaleged opinion is null and that I can't empathize, you're labelling me/shutting me out/squashing me because of my race and sexual orientation, which puts me in a separate, child experience of profiling stemming from the same parent-principle definition of profiling that your child experience stems from. (speaking hierarchically.) So while we're not experiencing the exact same kind of profiling/prejudice, we're now both being exposed to prejudice as principle. [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] You're suggesting that I lack experience in being profiled based on my race, and simultaneously profiling me based on my race. What you don't know about me personally, is that this isn't the first time this has happened to me. I don't enjoy being told I'm incapable of empathy based on my skin color/sexual orientation, I actually take great pride in being emotionally supportive of people around me, because I really like people. And being profiled this way directly gives me the experience/insight of being personally prejudiced, and you know what? I don't like it happening to me, and I certainly don't wish it on other people, but what's more, is that when I was a kid and didn't understand privilege vs non privilege in terms of race, I still loved people of all races and was very sad to learn about racial prejudices that go on in the world. I empathized, because that's how I was taught, to love everyone equally.

It wasn't because they were white though, it was because they were there to report on it. Basically the organizers didn't want any journalists there. [quote]"It is a space where folks share some very vulnerable stories and are less inclined to share their stories when they know it will be the front page of an upcoming newspaper," Hoilett said.[/quote] [URL]http://globalnews.ca/news/1885540/white-students-asked-to-leave-anti-racism-event-at-ryerson/[/URL]

[QUOTE=_Axel;47348949]That's not "actual racism", that's systematic racism.[/QUOTE] you've misunderstood. racism is something that perpetuates stereotypes and discrimination. it defends the advantages of the privileged. it also affects marginalized people socioeconomically. it can take many forms, such as calling a black man the N-word as well as denying service to a hispanic man because he is hispanic. [QUOTE]Otherwise what's to stop me from saying antisemitism doesn't exist because many people in positions of power are Jews?[/QUOTE] this is like saying "racism is over in the US because they have a black president". there are indeed people in positions of power who are of a marginalized minority group but that does not negate what I said. what's stopping you is that the notion of a minority acquiring power resulting in the negation of racism against his/her race is baseless because there are people still being marginalized.

[QUOTE=Kinversulath;47348566]Man, Ryerson has a racialized student collective? uOttawa doesn't even have one, and our Student Association wanted to build a whole racialized student centre. Of course, they put it up to a student vote where it promptly capsized, along with half of the executive who proposed it.[/QUOTE] The people in student politics are retarded. Here at UofT they wanted to do away with all college/faculty representation and bring in representation of marginalized groups. Instead of engineers, such as myself, voting on who will be our engineering representative for the UTSU (University of Toronto Student Union) we would have to vote in our marginalized representatives who aren't even supposed to represent us. They did this because...

Why is it Canada, specifically Toronto that manages to host the most toxic downright retarded SJWs? I guess they are in the peripherals at the university I'm sure, the place is good otherwise but fuck cmon. It's supposed to be a place of education not hug boxes and slacktivism. These people are honestly pathetic and I don't understand what their place will be in society once they leave their extended high school hug box. UoT and Ryerson get your shit together.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47348874]that's true though you can be prejudice against white people, sure. but actual racism involves prejudice + oppression from a position of power within a society where marginalized people are targeted. [B]this isn't anything new.[/B] this isn't that tumblr shit you people love to fucking bring up at any possible moment, this is a sociological issue.[/QUOTE] Racism is discrimination or prejudice on the grounds of race. Racism can exist independently of majorities, minorities, positions of power and oppression. If you discriminate or are prejudiced against people because of their race then you are a racist. Period

[QUOTE=AlexConnor;47349149]Racism is discrimination or prejudice on the grounds of race. [B]Racism can exist independently of majorities, minorities, positions of power and oppression.[/B] If you discriminate or are prejudiced against people because of their race then you are a racist. Period[/QUOTE] racism exists BECAUSE of the subordination of minorities. that is simply a fact.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47349213]racism exists BECAUSE of the subordination of minorities. that is simply a fact.[/QUOTE] what? Racism is a symbol of xenophobia. It requires an identification by race/ethnicity and negative behaviour towards that race based on certain prejudices. It can exist regardless of minorities or majorities and can exist even between two completely unrelated people. You can be racist towards chinese for instance, despite never ever meeting one. Likewise a minority can be racist and a minority can even commit systematic racism in societies where they hold power. It doesn't require power or subordination, those are not requirements for racism. Again this is a conflict between the European and North American view on what is or isn't racism. The North American view is what europeans consider Systematic racism. It makes sense why this view developed over the continent. Due to the way NA society is set up, even the majority isn't that huge but holds incredibly large power. But European views are somewhat different due to the impact of ww1 and ww2 where nationhood, ethnicity and language became incredibly important and even groups of equal power in a single society could be incredibly racist towards each other and attempted to oppress each other.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47349213]racism exists BECAUSE of the subordination of minorities. that is simply a fact.[/QUOTE] Blacks are oppressed in America, Whites are oppressed in Africa. Same goes with Japan and non Japanese. Or Muslims in wherever they are the minority. in all cases, they're the minority. Do you ever see Japanese people getting oppressed in Japan? Not really, doesn't mean they can't deal with racism.

[QUOTE=J!NX;47349268]Blacks are oppressed in America, Whites are oppressed in Africa. Same goes with Japan and non Japanese. Or Muslims in wherever they are the minority. in all cases, they're the minority. Do you ever see Japanese people getting oppressed in Japan? Not really, doesn't mean they can't deal with racism.[/QUOTE] Whites oppressed blacks in Africa and blacks were the majority... I'm confused about the point you're trying to make? is there one?

[QUOTE=Aman;47349305]Whites oppressed blacks in Africa and blacks were the majority...[/QUOTE] I'm talking more today but yeah if you look at it historically though the native Americans are exactly the best example, same with Africa when the whites discovered them. Today, not so much.

[QUOTE=Aman;47349305]Whites oppressed blacks in Africa and blacks were the majority... I'm confused about the point you're trying to make? is there one?[/QUOTE] Yet the current situation in the SAR is essentially institutionalised racism against the white, relatively affluent minority. Which is why you're pretty much seeing so many south african whites emmigrating.

idk maybe I should have worded that less like a turd

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47349110]you've misunderstood. racism is something that perpetuates stereotypes and discrimination. it defends the advantages of the privileged. it also affects marginalized people socioeconomically. it can take many forms, such as calling a black man the N-word as well as denying service to a hispanic man because he is hispanic. this is like saying "racism is over in the US because they have a black president". there are indeed people in positions of power who are of a marginalized minority group but that does not negate what I said. what's stopping you is that the notion of a minority acquiring power resulting in the negation of racism against his/her race is baseless because there are people still being marginalized.[/QUOTE] No definition of racism stipulates it has to be backed up by systematic oppression. You're pretending systematic racism, a subset of racism, is what racism is at its core, which doesn't make any sense. I don't see any point in persisting in trying to redefine racism to only cater to certain demographics, if not to get away with racism under the guise of it not being "actual racism". I simply don't see what you're trying to achieve here, are you trying to defend unfair treatment of so-called "privileged" people? If not then why to you cling to this false definition?

[QUOTE]“To be clear, racism is a system of oppression, there aren't broad examples in our society that speaks to white folks being excluded from spaces … because of their race,” he said. [/QUOTE] What about the Irish, or the Jews, or Russians/ Poles?

[QUOTE=wraithcat;47349258]what? Racism is a symbol of xenophobia. It requires an identification by race/ethnicity and negative behaviour towards that race based on certain prejudices. It can exist regardless of minorities or majorities and can exist even between two completely unrelated people. You can be racist towards chinese for instance, despite never ever meeting one. Likewise a minority can be racist and a minority can even commit systematic racism in societies where they hold power. It doesn't require power or subordination, those are not requirements for racism. Again this is a conflict between the European and North American view on what is or isn't racism. The North American view is what europeans consider Systematic racism. It makes sense why this view developed over the continent. Due to the way NA society is set up, even the majority isn't that huge but holds incredibly large power. But European views are somewhat different due to the impact of ww1 and ww2 where nationhood, ethnicity and language became incredibly important and even groups of equal power in a single society could be incredibly racist towards each other and attempted to oppress each other.[/QUOTE] I acknowledge the differences between our definitions. I suppose it does depend on the country in question, but as a person who grew up around this sort of thing it's something I've learned from my black friends and am passionate about. I trust their definitions more.

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;47349409]What about the Irish, or the Jews, or Russians/ Poles?[/QUOTE] I'm under the impression that Americans have been focused so much on racism against black people that they forgot it can apply to white people too.

[quote]“To be clear, racism is a system of oppression, there aren’t broad examples in our society that speaks to white folks being excluded from spaces … because of their race,” he said.[/quote] Aren't they doing that right now by excluding people from spaces because of their race?

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47349416]I acknowledge the differences between our definitions. I suppose it does depend on the country in question, but as a person who grew up around this sort of thing it's something I've learned from my black friends and am passionate about. I trust their definitions more.[/QUOTE] I thought you were trying to argue the central/core definition...? [QUOTE=Boaraes;47348874] but actual racism involves prejudice + oppression from a position of power within a society where marginalized people are targeted.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47349416]I acknowledge the differences between our definitions. I suppose it does depend on the country in question, but as a person who grew up around this sort of thing it's something I've learned from my black friends and am passionate about. I trust their definitions more.[/QUOTE] Even if by believing in your definition, you could engage in actually racist behavior without thinking you're behaving in a racist manner? Does that mean I can create my own definition of sexism and then act in the most misogynist way possible and still state that I'm not sexist?

[QUOTE=Boaraes;47349213]racism exists BECAUSE of the subordination of minorities. that is simply a fact.[/QUOTE] So white people can't be racist against yellow people because there are more yellow people than white people on earth?

What if they were kicked for being white, so that they would be let in right after for being racialized, but they didn't get it and left :v:?