[QUOTE=DaCommie1;39225359]And what else can he do? Almost nobody outside of California cares about Oakland specifically enough to either a) try to organize a public protest about it in their locale or b) fly there to make change directly through involvement in the community there. This means that on the topic of Oakland, essentially all one can do if they're not there is write angry letters.[/QUOTE]
support a third party or get involved into an action group that seeks to improve the conditions caused by destructive exploitation and institutional racism
but, and correct me if i'm wrong, but that just doesn't have the same easy ring as an easy Us v Them debate where you can say "well obvsly sigma is just gay" and boost your own egos
not to mention a sob story about Oakland doesn't sell guns nor newspapers, which only furthers my point about destructive exploitation.
how many of the gun owners in this thread were also against the so-called "Obamacare" bill as well?
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225292]correction: you don't care enough to do anything besides write angry letters[/QUOTE]
The hell else am I supposed to do? join a 1km run? Throw money at a charity or interest group and hope it helps? Fly all the way to Oakland or twin citys and do charity work in a food kitchen? As much as I'd like to help, there really isn't much I can do besides sign a petition or write a letter.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;39225387]Okay then, how will you manage to get the tens of millions of "assault weapons" then? It is still an absolutely impossible goal.[/QUOTE]
i was talking about high capacity magazines but what the fuck ever reading isn't important
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225414]i don't think that the ability to own a tool whose only designed purpose is to kill people very rapidly and in large numbers is a natural right. sorry bro.[/QUOTE]
don't do that, don't try and change his point to some bullshit it's not about
[editline]14th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225424]i was talking about high capacity magazines but what the fuck ever reading isn't important[/QUOTE]
Okay then how does a high capacity magazine ban do anything to anyone who's committing crimes
it won't save lives, explain how it will, you're stating a point that it'll be an effective instrument in a war on crime and guns to remove high capacity magazines. argue like a person and outline why that'll work.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225421]
how many of the gun owners in this thread were also against the so-called "Obamacare" bill as well?[/QUOTE]
Not as many as you'd think, we're not all bible thumping conservatives, quite a few of us are further left leaning than you'd think.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225420]Then if we aren't gonna ban/regulate more or guns/clips/whatever lets save ourselves some money (yet another thing repubs have a boner about) and unban drugs[/QUOTE]
unrelated to this topic all together no matter how much i agree
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39225441]unrelated to this topic all together no matter how much i agree[/QUOTE]
Not really. Its an attempt to show him his Prohibition argument is stupid
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225422]The hell else am I supposed to do? join a 1km run? Throw money at a charity or interest group and hope it helps? Fly all the way to Oakland or twin citys and do charity work in a food kitchen? As much as I'd like to help, there really isn't much I can do besides sign a petition or write a letter.[/QUOTE]
oakland is a stand-in for any metropolis seriously in trouble
acc. to your steam thingy you live in Michigan
wouldn't it be better to talk about the social issues in Detroit rather than guns
[url=http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/121214/top-10-deadliest-shootings-us-history]Top 10 Mass Shooting in US, "assault weapons" were only used once, and it wasn't even the worst shooting?[/url]
I'm sure we've been over this, but can someone who is against this (or for it, for that matter) explain to me why, in your opinion, we have the 4th ammendment?
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225437]Not as many as you'd think, we're not all bible thumping conservatives, quite a few of us are further left leaning than you'd think.[/QUOTE]
how left-leaning
left-leaning enough to say that exploitative social conditions and institutional racism increase crime far more than gun ownership or gun bans?
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225449]oakland is a stand-in for any metropolis seriously in trouble
acc. to your steam thingy you live in Michigan
wouldn't it be better to talk about the social issues in Detroit rather than guns[/QUOTE]
I haven't updated my steam profile in a while, I don't currently reside in Michigan, I live in south Georgia on the border between Florida and Georgia. Even if I did live near Detroit (which when I was in Michigan I wasn't very close to it at all) I don't understand how debating on an internet forum about ways to help with the poverty levels and social issues in Detroit would actually do anything.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225448]Not really. Its an attempt to show him his Prohibition argument is stupid[/QUOTE]
I don't think you got what he said at all.
He said prohibitions, the banning of something for the betterment of society, doesn't work.
At this point in our 4 or 5 post discussion, we have both, between the two of us agreed that prohibitions don't work.
I don't think you understand this.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225448]Not really. Its an attempt to show him his Prohibition argument is stupid[/QUOTE]
It isn't a stupid argument. People still got alcohol during that time period, and crime was increased. Drugs are illegal, and people still get them. If firearms are illegal, people will still get them. It only harms the rights of lawful gun owners by restricting them.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225465]how left-leaning
left-leaning enough to say that exploitative social conditions and institutional racism increase crime far more than gun ownership or gun bans?[/QUOTE]
yes, in my case easily
I imagine a number of posters here share similar albeit different opinions on the issue.
As a relative told me; you can't legislate evil.
This in regards to people wanting to murder other innocent people. If you ban guns, they will use blades. If you ban blades, they will use clubs. If you ban clubs, they will find intricate methods. If you ban everything, they'll use their damn bare hands.
Should people be allowed to own tanks and nuclear bombs then? No. Should they be allowed to operate on a level similar to criminals in order to defend themselves? Yes. You can preach weeaboo sword tricks and pacifism all you want, if someone is intent to kill you with a gun, and you lack a gun - you are at a severe disadvantage in almost every scenario.
Problem two is that a ban doesn't remove anything quickly. And the first items to get removed are the most easily accessed - those of generic individuals with no intent to hide from the law. The very same who were fully innocent. Now you have the people who could once defend themselves without weapons, and criminals who still have them. Which is a funny thing considering just how many justified criminal deaths were caused at the hands of civilians; somewhere near 40-45% next to the police in the US if I remember right.
Of course, this is all assuming people will up and go along with it. You have far too many gun lovers, patriots, rednecks, Southerns and every positive/negative word/stereotype inbetween. And every one of them will tell you something along the lines that they will react if there is a gun ban of some type. As in they will not follow along with it. Which defeats the whole damn purpose and ends up being a huge waste of Federal money. Which is something we're rather hilariously dry on (as in the negatives, of a couple trillion.) :v:
(Oh, and if we're on about magazines. Capacity don't mean shit. Most semi-trained people can reload their guns in under 2-3 seconds easily. That is not a real gap of any kind.)
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225465]how left-leaning
left-leaning enough to say that exploitative social conditions and institutional racism increase crime far more than gun ownership or gun bans?[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree with you. I think social issues, low poverty levels, and a poor mental healthcare system are far more important topics than gun control, one that both media and politicians should address. They also should consider it to be more important than gun control, but they don't.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225467]I haven't updated my steam profile in a while, I don't currently reside in Michigan, I live in south Georgia on the border between Florida and Georgia. Even if I did live near Detroit (which when I was in Michigan I wasn't very close to it at all) I don't understand how debating on an internet forum about ways to help with the poverty levels and social issues in Detroit would actually do anything.[/QUOTE]
you should give me more intellectual credit and understand that i'm not simply talking about you, detroit, or an internet forum
we can give or take away guns all we want, but until we fix these issues i'm talking about people will keep dying, and i think it's disappointing that we waste our freedom of expression on boring debates about amendments and guns
i mean if u think guns are not boring then great, thats what the firearms thread is for
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225493]you should give me more intellectual credit and understand that i'm not simply talking about you, detroit, or an internet forum
we can give or take away guns all we want, but until we fix these issues i'm talking about people will keep dying, and i think it's disappointing that we waste our freedom of expression on boring debates about amendments and guns
i mean if u think guns are not boring then great, thats what the firearms thread is for[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree with you, I'd love to debate how our failing mental healthcare system is part of the issue, but thats not what this thread is about. When a thread like that opens I'll gladly join you in it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39225468]I don't think you got what he said at all.
He said prohibitions, the banning of something for the betterment of society, doesn't work.
At this point in our 4 or 5 post discussion, we have both, between the two of us agreed that prohibitions don't work.
I don't think you understand this.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=kman866;39225470]It isn't a stupid argument. People still got alcohol during that time period, and crime was increased. Drugs are illegal, and people still get them. If firearms are illegal, people will still get them. It only harms the rights of lawful gun owners by restricting them.[/QUOTE]
Its relevant in that bans must work to some degree otherwise we wouldn't bother banning/restricting all the shit we do. Sure some people will still get whatever it is but its a start. Hell maybe if shit started to clear up we could remove the ban/restriction. We have to try something
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225487]I don't disagree with you. I think social issues, low poverty levels, and a poor mental healthcare system are far more important topics than gun control, one that both media and politicians should address. They also should consider it to be more important than gun control, but they don't.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39225474]yes, in my case easily
I imagine a number of posters here share similar albeit different opinions on the issue.[/QUOTE]
sure, and the thing is a huge number of people in the US in general have exactly the same view too, it's just too easy to get wrapped up in EZ debates about guns so the conversation gets dumbed down and boring
i think i lost track somewhere, but in either case its still sad that a gun debate sparks more conversation than say institutional discrimination or social segregation
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225497]I don't disagree with you, I'd love to debate how our failing mental healthcare system is part of the issue, but thats not what this thread is about. When a thread like that opens I'll gladly join you in it.[/QUOTE]
faults in the social conditions of the US are a massive part of why the gun culture in the US can be questionable at times
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225384]the existence of illicitly produced alternatives isn't an argument for the legality of professionally produced items of the same type
The fact that you can make a pipe bomb in your basement isn't an argument in favor of being allowed to buy factory made bombs[/QUOTE]
No, it's not. But that doesn't mean prohibition isn't an effort in futility.
You disarm the public but then what? What does that accomplish? All those law-abiding citizens that weren't hurting anyone will continue to not hurt anyone and the people that want to hurt other people will continue to do so. The shooters typically break the law to get their armaments anyway, what is a little more law breaking to someone who has nothing left to lose?
This is a band-aid over a much larger problem and I don't support band-aids.
[editline]15th January 2013[/editline]
Christ this thread is moving too fast. I can't keep track of it all.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225511]Its relevant in that bans must work to some degree otherwise we wouldn't bother banning/restricting all the shit we do. Sure some people will still get whatever it is but its a start. Hell maybe if shit started to clear up we could remove the ban/restriction. We have to try something[/QUOTE]
No it's not. The drug war has failed in every conceivable aspect. The prohibition of alcohol failed in every way.
We ban shit because we're afraid and stupid. That's it.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225465]how left-leaning
left-leaning enough to say that exploitative social conditions and institutional racism increase crime far more than gun ownership or gun bans?[/QUOTE]
I want to blame gun culture more than I want to blame guns themselves but I see them as maybe intrinsically linked (for some crazy reason??).
Like maybe the cultural obsession we have with guns and how "cool" and "badass" they are AHEM NOT NAMING NAMES has something to do with why so many people in dire straits see a life of violent crime as a viable option or why so many depressed or mentally ill people see death by shootout as a good way to go?
Maybe this is why I seem so aggro because seemingly every thread about gun control has, by page 15, turned into a "post your gun collection and favorite guns" thread and, in light of this, I want to fucking puke?
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225497]I don't disagree with you, I'd love to debate how our failing mental healthcare system is part of the issue, but thats not what this thread is about. When a thread like that opens I'll gladly join you in it.[/QUOTE]
its what the thread should be about
instead of trying to find shit to disagree with each other on by making rash statements about how you're gonna kick the pres out for random shit, or how lame someone is because they have a different viewpoint (:rolleyes:)
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225511]Its relevant in that bans must work to some degree otherwise we wouldn't bother banning/restricting all the shit we do. Sure some people will still get whatever it is but its a start. Hell maybe if shit started to clear up we could remove the ban/restriction. We have to try something[/QUOTE]
It would also violate the 2nd amendment. The right to bear arms was created to give civilians similar weaponry as the gov't to prevent an overpowered gov't or tyranny.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225449]
wouldn't it be better to talk about the social issues in Detroit rather than guns[/QUOTE]
That would be fantastic, and it'd be a lot easier to do if people stopped attacking the concept of gun ownership in the first place since it clearly shouldn't be the first priority
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225514]sure, and the thing is a huge number of people in the US in general have exactly the same view too, it's just too easy to get wrapped up in EZ debates about guns so the conversation gets dumbed down and boring
i think i lost track somewhere, but in either case its still sad that a gun debate sparks more conversation than say institutional discrimination or social segregation[/QUOTE]
I think it's a shame these conversations are bigger and more prominent than those discussions
I really think we need to talk about a lot more than guns at this point
[editline]14th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225527]I want to blame gun culture more than I want to blame guns themselves but I see them as maybe intrinsically linked (for some crazy reason??).
Like maybe the cultural obsession we have with guns and how "cool" and "badass" they are AHEM NOT NAMING NAMES has something to do with why so many people in dire straits see a life of violent crime as a viable option or why so many depressed or mentally ill people see death by shootout as a good way to go?
Maybe this is why I seem so aggro because seemingly every thread about gun control has, by page 15, turned into a "post your gun collection and favorite guns" thread and, in light of this, I want to fucking puke?[/QUOTE]
Gun culture probably has something to do with it at some level, but more importantly, when you say things like this, you should justify why every normal person who owns a gun, who has never hurt anyone with it must be summed up as a fucking psychopath by the likes of you?
You don't get to make that call about all those people out of ignorance and out of fear and get to feel justified in having stopped harmless people from harming people.
[QUOTE=kman866;39225532]It would also violate the 2nd amendment. The right to bear arms was created to give civilians similar weaponry as the gov't to prevent an overpowered gov't or tyranny.[/QUOTE]
As said before a clip ban or whatever isn't a threat to bear arms
And those of you that are against a ban/better regulation...what is your solution to all the gun problems (yes yes guns dont kill people hurr durr) of the past few months? Just shoot everyone?
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