[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225527]I want to blame gun culture more than I want to blame guns themselves but I see them as maybe intrinsically linked (for some crazy reason??).[/QUOTE]
i think they are intrinsically linked too, but afaik there are far more guns than there are people who want them. i think the problem lies with the fact that it's too easy to get a gun illegally, and i do think somewhere between the gun manufacturer and the gun owner someone's not playing by the rules
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225527]Like maybe the cultural obsession we have with guns and how "cool" and "badass" they are AHEM NOT NAMING NAMES has something to do with why so many people in dire straits see a life of violent crime as a viable option or why so many depressed or mentally ill people see death by shootout as a good way to go?[/QUOTE]
yeah but the US isn't the only culture with that obsession tho, i don't think the US is filled with special more violent people. i think the environment makes them that way
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225527]Maybe this is why I seem so aggro because seemingly every thread about gun control has, by page 15, turned into a "post your gun collection and favorite guns" thread and, in light of this, I want to fucking puke?[/QUOTE]
yeah that's fair lmao
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225554]As said before a clip ban or whatever isn't a threat to bear arms
And those of you that are against a ban/better regulation...what is your solution to all the gun problems (yes yes guns dont kill people hurr durr) of the past few months? [B]Just shoot everyone?[/B][/QUOTE]
No but it's a bloody waste of time and effort and solves nothing, so why do it anyways?
Fucking christ, if you expect to be taken seriously or argued with like an adult, don't say stupid shit like this.
You know what, read what thisispain is saying because the problem doesn't stem from guns nearly as much as it stems from socio economic concerns wrapped into our general lack of concern for each other and our inability to take mental health seriously.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225554]As said before a clip ban or whatever isn't a threat to bear arms
And those of you that are against a ban/better regulation...what is your solution to all the gun problems (yes yes guns dont kill people hurr durr) of the past few months? Just shoot everyone?[/QUOTE]
Look into the economic situation, look into better care for people with mental health problems, find ways to help the millions living in poverty and bridge the class divide, most of all [I]figure out why people would want to do such a thing in the first place and how to stop it without punishing normal people[/I]. Things like that.
Or you know, shoot everyone, whatever.
REALLY GLAD I LIVE IN NEW YORK NOW.
Now my previously already limited 10 round "assault" mags are 3 rounds too much.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39225538]
Gun culture probably has something to do with it at some level, but more importantly, when you say things like this, you should justify why every normal person who owns a gun, who has never hurt anyone with it must be summed up as a fucking psychopath by the likes of you?[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying they're psychopaths I'm saying that maybe they're giving psychopaths ideas by spending every waking hour talking about how awesome their fucking guns are and being a consumer base which helps to create a cultural landscape which fills every form of media with guns.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;39225536]That would be fantastic, and it'd be a lot easier to do if people stopped attacking the concept of gun ownership in the first place since it clearly shouldn't be the first priority[/QUOTE]
uhm
i don't see why people "attacking the concept of gun ownership" would stop you from having that discussion
doesn't seem to stop me or anyone else
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225554]As said before a clip ban or whatever isn't a threat to bear arms
And those of you that are against a ban/better regulation...what is your solution to all the gun problems (yes yes guns dont kill people hurr durr) of the past few months? Just shoot everyone?[/QUOTE]
Alright, I work in the gun industry and I will tell you my solution.
Stronger care for the mentally challenged and such. There is no such system out there for them other than a prison or insane asylum. These crazy people are also allowed to get firearms because NICS doesn't have anything on file about them being crazy. Doctor-Patient agreements keep them from notifying anyone what is going on, therefore allowing the person to have a clear background when purchasing a firearm. That system is flawed, and really needs to be taken care of. Punishing law abiding citizens because of the actions of the mentally challenged is just wrong.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225554]As said before a clip ban or whatever isn't a threat to bear arms
And those of you that are against a ban/better regulation...what is your solution to all the gun problems (yes yes guns dont kill people hurr durr) of the past few months? Just shoot everyone?[/QUOTE]
How about addressing the underlying factors that drive people to actually kill their fellow man? That's doable without infringing upon the rights of people who did nothing wrong.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39225567]No but it's a bloody waste of time and effort and solves nothing, so why do it anyways?
Fucking christ, if you expect to be taken seriously or argued with like an adult, don't say stupid shit like this.
You know what, read what thisispain is saying because the problem doesn't stem from guns nearly as much as it stems from socio economic concerns wrapped into our general lack of concern for each other and our inability to take mental health seriously.[/QUOTE]
Well thats what NRA has been more or less been saying with concealed carry. If someone does something we'll have our guns so we can shoot them. And as people have pointed out if someone is gonna break the law they will do it weather or not people are carrying concealed.
And yes I also said a few pages back I'd like mental health care reform but again Repubs get all bent out of shape about it (not sayin you guys nessesarily are Repubs but that the pro gun and anti healthcare are both Repub points)
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225577]I'm not saying they're psychopaths I'm saying that maybe they're giving psychopaths ideas by spending every waking hour talking about how awesome their fucking guns are and being a consumer base which helps to create a cultural landscape which fills every form of media with guns.[/QUOTE]
not to mention it also causes discussions to become derailed about guns, from internet forums to news media, to the president apparently???
this is seriously a US only thing. the US isn't the only place with legal guns.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225577]I'm not saying they're psychopaths I'm saying that maybe they're giving psychopaths ideas by spending every waking hour talking about how awesome their fucking guns are and being a consumer base which helps to create a cultural landscape which fills every form of media with guns.[/QUOTE]
yes, the conversations those people have are surely giving them ideas
yes, the video games those people play...
yes, the movies...
yes, the tv shows...
I mean the list friggin goes on, the culture of guns is less an issue than a culture that prioritizes violence over sex, or hate over love, etc.
The people who like guns and talk about them for their own hedonistic benefit aren't really that damning of this culture.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225554]As said before a clip ban or whatever isn't a threat to bear arms
And those of you that are against a ban/better regulation...what is your solution to all the gun problems (yes yes guns dont kill people hurr durr) of the past few months? Just shoot everyone?[/QUOTE]
Also it is a threat to bear arms when you consider that the 2nd Amendment's purpose is to bridge the gap between the government and the people, militarily speaking.
Allowing the government to limit the second amendment is nullifying the entire purpose.
video games, movies, and tv shows have cultural impact
not physical, injury-causing impact
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225588]Well thats what NRA has been more or less been saying with concealed carry. If someone does something we'll have our guns so we can shoot them. And as people have pointed out if someone is gonna break the law they will do it weather or not people are carrying concealed.[/QUOTE]
So your answer when you hear that the piece of legislation you want enacted is ineffective and useless is "Well we should do it anyways".
I'm not talking about concealed carry, and though it is a valid form of self defence against potentially lethal events that DO happen in the US(this is the real problem you know) yes, criminals will do what they'll do anyways and they'll not be impeded by your actions so what you're doing is only hurting people who don't hurt people and wasting money better spent doing something fucking useful
do you not get why this is fucking stupid
like i know this is a half life forum and considering the fact that video games might have social repercussions is verboten but the fact that every facet of our media like video games and tv shows and movies and music and especially on news stories and the tongues of right wing partisan hacks you can find guns and the even more pernicious idea that killing can somehow be cool or even admirable makes me think that this culture actually could drive or influence certain mentally ill people to choose to go on a shooting rampage and, here's the kicker: I think that the fact that guns are (in a literal, physical sense) everywhere might have something to do with this culture which, while not unique to america, has a very unique fervor in america
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225599]video games, movies, and tv shows have cultural impact
not physical, injury-causing impact[/QUOTE]
they, like people that those people know, have an impact on the people that commit these acts. i don't think those things make anyone violent, but if you're going to say "well the people that enjoy guns as a hobby encourage violent behaviour" I think you're saying something that's disingenuous and missing the point.
It's the people with these problems that cause these events, they're doubtlessly influenced by aspects of their lives, movies, friends, culture, internet, tv, video games, books, whatever, so pointing blame at anyone and saying let's get rid of that is a horrible way to "fix" anything.
They themselves don't hurt anyone and no one hurts anyone just because of one of these things. It's a serious combination of everything.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225607] I think that the fact that guns are (in a literal, physical sense) everywhere might have something to do with this culture which, while not unique to america, has a very unique fervor in america[/QUOTE]
yeah absolutely, as a foreign born person i totally know what you mean haha
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225607]like i know this is a half life forum and considering the fact that video games might have social repercussions is verboten but the fact that every facet of our media like video games and tv shows and movies and music and especially on news stories and the tongues of right wing partisan hacks makes me think that this culture actually could drive or influence certain mentally ill people to choose to go on a shooting rampage and, here's the kicker: I think that the fact that guns are (in a literal, physical sense) everywhere might have something to do with this culture which, while not unique to america, has a very unique fervor in america[/QUOTE]
So if the issue extends beyond the reach of physical weapons (of any sort), let's stop this useless debate and focus on our mental health system, because the lack of a good system means stressed or mentally deficient people are going to continue to go untreated until they snap and find a way to hurt someone. People who want to kill people will find a way to do it, if they can't use a certain type of gun, they'll use a different gun. The point is that someone will die, and that could very well be avoided if we actually do something about the fact that they have issues.
[editline]15th January 2013[/editline]
I mean I honestly think this pro-gun control argument people sometimes (not necessarily pointing fingers) have is basically "Well this one guy uses this thing for bad reasons, so nobody should have it." If we applied that logic equally, we'd really have nothing left.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225414]i don't think that the ability to own a tool whose only designed purpose is to kill people very rapidly and in large numbers is a natural right. sorry bro.[/QUOTE]
I suppose that's why most people are okay with the fact that civilians typically do not have legal access to nuclear weapons, nerve gas, flamethrowers, or high explosives. But I know you're not referring to these, you're referring to firearms, a class of weapon that is really only practical to direct against one target at a time.
While it may not be a natural right to own firearms, it [I]is[/I] a constitutional right, and something the founders of the US often discussed and favored, considering they had just fought a successful war against a foreign force that attempted to disarm the populace to prevent resistance.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225607]like i know this is a half life forum and considering the fact that video games might have social repercussions is verboten but the fact that every facet of our media like video games and tv shows and movies and music and especially on news stories and the tongues of right wing partisan hacks you can find guns and the even more pernicious idea that killing can somehow be cool or even admirable makes me think that this culture actually could drive or influence certain mentally ill people to choose to go on a shooting rampage and, here's the kicker: I think that the fact that guns are (in a literal, physical sense) everywhere might have something to do with this culture which, while not unique to america, has a very unique fervor in america[/QUOTE]
Verbotten or not it's partly true and we as gamers and people who engage in these activities should know that. we should also be able to take responsibility for our own actions.
We should not be banning things in an attempt to fix things in desperation.
I'm of the opinion america is somewhat fucked in it's future with some very strange and serious problems being presented to it. Gun proliferation being part of that, but less than the whole problem. Also not something feasibly or efficient to deal with.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;39225620]but if you're going to say "well the people that enjoy guns as a hobby encourage violent behaviour" I think you're saying something that's disingenuous and missing the point. [/QUOTE]
yeah but i wouldn't say the people do, it's the environment people are born in.
you might not be affected by this, but say a poor person born into a bad social position might be far more likely to see guns as an effective tool of empowerment, and the culture could be the only thing to blame for that.
[QUOTE=Daemonshadow;39225637]I suppose that's why most people are okay with the fact that civilians typically do not have access to nuclear weapons, nerve gas, flamethrowers, or high explosives. But I know you're not referring to these, you're referring to firearms.
While it may not be a natural right to own firearms, it [i]is[/i] a constitutional right, and something the founders of the US often discussed and favored, considering they had just fought a successful war against a foreign force that attempted to disarm the populace to prevent resistance.[/QUOTE]
Actually flamethrowers are pretty easy to come by and not regulated in any real capacity.
They're never used in crimes though as they're awful weapons for assault, and they're no more effective than a torch lighter for arson.
Off topic but whatever.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225607]like i know this is a half life forum and considering the fact that video games might have social repercussions is verboten but the fact that every facet of our media like video games and tv shows and movies and music and especially on news stories and the tongues of right wing partisan hacks you can find guns and the even more pernicious idea that killing can somehow be cool or even admirable makes me think that this culture actually could drive or influence certain mentally ill people to choose to go on a shooting rampage and, here's the kicker: I think that the fact that guns are (in a literal, physical sense) everywhere might have something to do with this culture which, while not unique to america, has a very unique fervor in america[/QUOTE]
Guns are a symptom, not a condition.
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;39225645]Actually flamethrowers are pretty easy to come by and not regulated in any real capacity.
They're never used in crimes though as they're awful weapons for assault, and they're no more effective than a torch lighter for arson.
Off topic but whatever.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. It seems I was incorrect in mentioning flamethrowers in this particular context.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225641]yeah but i wouldn't say the people do, it's the environment people are born in.
you might not be affected by this, but say a poor person born into a bad social position might be far more likely to see guns as an effective tool of empowerment, and the culture could be the only thing to blame for that.[/QUOTE]
There really isn't just one gun culture. The one that a gang banger is placed into isn't the same one that a hunter is placed into.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225641]yeah but i wouldn't say the people do, it's the environment people are born in.
you might not be affected by this, but say a poor person born into a bad social position might be far more likely to see guns as an effective tool of empowerment, and the culture could be the only thing to blame for that.[/QUOTE]
This is true, and I would be hard pressed to really argue with this on a strong level.
This argument is a really fucked one. The problems presented are so numerous and so powerful I think nothing is going to fix it.
I mean you have the socio economic problems that you're concerned about, you have gun proliferation that can't be taken care of by coercive force or by might, or by legislation due to how ineffective that would be, you have weath disparity that will only increase in the coming years, you have welfare and drug problems popping up left and right due to a 40 year old mishandling of damn near everything in that category, there's a sincere problem with representation in the government being disconnected from the people and the peoples issues and the media of a nation being quite manipulative in beliefs one way or the other as well as a entertainment industry that focuses on violent forms of entertainment to feed to the masses of people who seek it.
Every part on it's own can be dealt with but a list like this that's growing day by day is a tall order.
I don't know how to feel or how to think about this at the end of the day.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225667]There really isn't just one gun culture. The one that a gang banger is placed into isn't the same one that a hunter is placed into.[/QUOTE]
ofc when we talk about the US we have to talk about intense generalisations because its such a huge country
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39225667]There really isn't just one gun culture. The one that a gang banger is placed into isn't the same one that a hunter is placed into.[/QUOTE]
This is true but there's aspects of both that point to guns for the same thing. empowerment. A hunter takes a gun to make his life easier by hunting and this is a form of empowerment by guns. This is probably a positive really.
There's negative ones and positives both, but at the end of the day we do have a culture that on both sides of that fence is looking at one thing for power.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;39224936]I'm not, you are? Of course things become more efficient over time, but high capacity weapons existed back then, and saying otherwise is moot. Less than 5% of murders are committed with "assault weapons"
Firearms existed before muskets, firearms existed after muskets. Do you think the founding fathers thought technology would suddenly stop, lol?
[url=http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-road-to-american-liberty/case-22-the-paper-cartridge/cookson-volitional-repeating-flintlock.aspx][B]14[/B] shot repeating baby killer from 1750, before the US even existed[/url][/QUOTE]
If you are going to link something, at least read the article you are linking.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225527]Like maybe the cultural obsession we have with guns and how "cool" and "badass" they are AHEM NOT NAMING NAMES has something to do with why so many people in dire straits see a life of violent crime as a viable option or why so many depressed or mentally ill people see death by shootout as a good way to go?[/QUOTE]
Guns are cool, though. They're throwing supersonic metal a mile away with high accuracy, how is that not cool?
You're talking about something entirely different when you talk about the culture as it relates to crime. Some people just go nuts over guns the same way they would over cars or rockets or planes or explosives, and I've never heard of a correlation between people interested in a thing for it being "cool" and violent criminals. Does most vehicle manslaughter happen because of people with tricked out cars, or some asshole with a bad attitude?
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;39225554]And those of you that are against a ban/better regulation...what is your solution to all the gun problems (yes yes guns dont kill people hurr durr) of the past few months? Just shoot everyone?[/QUOTE]
We shoot you, and then stop talking about it.
Ask a stupid question...
[QUOTE=thisispain;39225563]i think they are intrinsically linked too, but afaik there are far more guns than there are people who want them. [B]i think the problem lies with the fact that it's too easy to get a gun illegally, and i do think somewhere between the gun manufacturer and the gun owner someone's not playing by the rules[/B][/QUOTE]
dingdingdingdingding
I will give you a hint which is more at fault: the one that rhymes with "bun banufacturer".
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225577]I'm not saying they're psychopaths I'm saying that maybe they're giving psychopaths ideas by spending every waking hour talking about how awesome their fucking guns are and being a consumer base which helps to create a cultural landscape which fills every form of media with guns.[/QUOTE]
Think about this for like three seconds though. The media isn't filled with pictures of shit better for killing people than a gun. You're not seeing a media full of rappers holding grenade launchers sideways and a GTA game with a flamethrower in every dude's hand and Giant Missiles Weekly magazine on newstands. The culture's making use of what it has access to, guns are just a vector. They're not the root of the problem, and focusing on them will only make the culture start focusing on other stupid shit.
Basically if you ban guns you will get gangbangers doing drivebys with autocannons and that would be horrible.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39225607]like i know this is a half life forum and considering the fact that video games might have social repercussions is verboten but the fact that every facet of our media like video games and tv shows and movies and music and especially on news stories and the tongues of right wing partisan hacks you can find guns and the even more pernicious idea that killing can somehow be cool or even admirable makes me think that this culture actually could drive or influence certain mentally ill people to choose to go on a shooting rampage and, here's the kicker: I think that the fact that guns are (in a literal, physical sense) everywhere might have something to do with this culture which, while not unique to america, has a very unique fervor in america[/QUOTE]
Let me put it for you another way- would sexism be a problem because of the existence of sexist media, or does sexist media exist because of rampant sexism? Obviously there's feedback, but which is [I]primarily[/I] at fault?
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