[QUOTE=zombays;35318773]Of course not, as reply to archangel, I said there was and still will be exceptions for everything. And, as said earlier, if they can't think rationally, is there anything that someone could do for a long-term success?[/QUOTE]
rational people can force them to get help, like the medication you have.
[QUOTE=Sanius;35318766]no not really
all you two are doing is shaming people who don't have control over their actions[/QUOTE]
God, that's stupid.
Do not have control over their actions?
Look, Sanius. You occasionally make good posts, but have you ever experienced or read up on depression? You don't seem to understand how it works. People suffering from depression lack the motivation to help themselves in a lot of cases, but they aren't having their strings pulled by some malign influence. They don't engage in attention-seeking behavior as a matter of course, and if they do, it's always by choice.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318613]On one hand, we've got a number of people in this thread who can't wrap their minds around the concept of mental illness, presumably because they've never experienced or studied it before. Depression and suicidal tendencies have nothing to do with attention-seeking. Attention-seeking is a sign of stunted emotional maturity or a deficit in intelligence, and can sometimes be seen accompanying depression and suicidal tendencies. Depression is not exclusive to a lack of self-esteem that requires a constant need for self-affirmation and affirmation from others, it's a chemical imbalance in the mind that saps the will to improve one's lot and makes one lose interest and enjoyment in life.
This woman was wrong. My old, now dead, friend was wrong. Because both of them went out of their way to make their friends as miserable as they thought they were. They used people who cared about them to fulfill their own sick fantasies.[/QUOTE]
where's the evidence that your "friend" and the other lady had " stunted emotional maturity and a deficit in intelligence" and that there wasn't some ongoing mental illness??
your naivety and abhorrent, twisted views are disgusting.
you can't immediately write off any suicidal person as an attention seeking whore - that's pathetic and ignorant. most of us (especially you) aren't privy to the exact details of the minds of [i] everyone [/i] who has suicidal thoughts, but your renewed faith that we don't understand mental disorders and the people are suicidal is rediculous as its obvious you understand even less.
[QUOTE=Sanius;35318766]no not really
all you two are doing is shaming people who don't have control over their actions[/QUOTE]
You always have control over your actions no matter in what conscious state you're in, just depends on how much you have control over your actions, and yes, you're still the biggest asshole if you do that.
What I meant is that you aren't 100% in control, but you still have some sort of control.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318777] She demonstrated clearly that she cared more about her own delusion than the well-being of the friends she harmed.[/QUOTE]
to me that shows that she was pretty disillusioned from reality
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35318817]rational people can force them to get help, like the medication you have.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't guarantee they'll always use it though.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318827]God, that's stupid.
Do not have control over their actions?
Look, Sanius. You occasionally make good posts, but have you ever experienced or read up on depression? You don't seem to understand how it works. People suffering from depression lack the motivation to help themselves in a lot of cases, but they aren't having their strings pulled by some malign influence. They don't engage in attention-seeking behavior as a matter of course, and if they do, it's always by choice.[/QUOTE]
First off, I formally studied abnormal psychology and mental disorders and it is safe for me to say you have no idea how impaired people become due to mental illness. It's easy for you to say she wasn't forced, it's pretty difficult not to listen to your own brain telling you to die.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318827]God, that's stupid.
Do not have control over their actions?
Look, Sanius. You occasionally make good posts, but have you ever experienced or read up on depression? You don't seem to understand how it works. People suffering from depression lack the motivation to help themselves in a lot of cases, but they aren't having their strings pulled by some malign influence. They don't engage in attention-seeking behavior as a matter of course, and if they do, it's always by choice.[/QUOTE]
Wow gee I wonder why someone who is depressed would engage in attention seeking behavior.
It couldn't possibly be them crying for help or something silly like that.
[QUOTE=Tippmann357;35318866]First off, I formally studied abnormal psychology and mental disorders and it is safe for me to say you have no idea how impaired people become due to mental illness. It's easy for you to say she wasn't forced, it's pretty difficult not to listen to your own brain telling you to die.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that was archangel's point, what he's saying is that they DO have control over their actions, just at a limited state, that doesn't mean no control at all like what Sanius implied.
[QUOTE=zombays;35318891]I don't think that was archangel's point, what he's saying is that they DO have control over their actions, just at a limited state, that doesn't mean no control at all like what Sanius implied.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, but control depends on the severity of the disorders. That's implied. Jumping to conclusions and saying she could control herself is ignorant.
[QUOTE=zombays;35318863]That doesn't guarantee they'll always use it though.[/QUOTE]
no it does not, but clearly it is a better alternative to socially condemning them.
this is why mental institutions exist (though i am not saying they work well today, but ideally they should exist to prevent cases like this from happening).
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35318932]no it does not, but clearly it is a better alternative to socially condemning them.
this is why mental institutions exist (though i am not saying they work well today, but ideally they should exist to prevent cases like this from happening).[/QUOTE]
Of course, I 100% agree with you, just throwing what I said out there.
[editline]27th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tippmann357;35318912]Obviously, but control depends on the severity of the disorders. That's implied. Jumping to conclusions and saying she could control herself is ignorant.[/QUOTE]
No, no, she couldn't control herself, not 100%, but she obviously had control over her life in some shape or form.
[QUOTE=Dachande;35318842]where's the evidence that your "friend" and the other lady had " stunted emotional maturity and a deficit in intelligence" and that there wasn't some ongoing mental illness??
your naivety and abhorrent, twisted views are disgusting.
you can't immediately write off any suicidal person as an attention seeking whore - that's pathetic and ignorant. most of us (especially you) aren't privy to the exact details of the minds of [i] everyone [/i] who has suicidal thoughts, but your renewed faith that we don't understand mental disorders and the people are suicidal is rediculous as its obvious you understand even less.[/QUOTE]
Let's rephrase what I've said so far.
People who are suicidal need help.
People who are suicidal WANT to be helped.
Sometimes, people who are suicidal cry out for help, in different ways. Maybe they'll talk to a friend about their feelings, or they'll tell someone close to them that they don't want to live.
A responsible friend will, in that case, urge them to seek professional help and inform others who are close to that suicidal friend of the danger.
At that point, if the suicidal person genuinely wants to get better, they usually express concern about seeing a medical professional, but make an effort of some sort.
When a suicidal person has repeatedly rejected opportunities for help, seemingly content instead to remain miserable, wanting to be seen by the world at large as some tragic hero, nobly suffering because of wrongs done to them by cruel people that are entirely undeserved, deliberately avoiding every chance provided to have their condition improve because it would take away their fantasy, then it's a good sign of danger.
The woman I knew had police called to her house at least twice when she claimed she was killing herself, once by me and once by someone else, and they found that she hadn't harmed herself at all and left. Apparently, she had a reputation with police as an attention-whore, too. Eventually, this behavior left her friends, me included, too emotionally drained to be sympathetic for much longer, because she seemed to enjoy frightening us. When she finally did kill herself, we were all devastated, but it didn't take us as long as it could have to get over it. We had little pity left to give, because she'd leeched us dry of it long ago.
When I was suicidal I told one of my friends about it few times but he didn't really care so I stopped it and changed like nothing was wrong. Few years later when I tried suicide I just wrote small text to my friends not to blame themselves about anything. I never wanted to hurt my friends with my depression and I never really brought it up or ask for help. My problems were all mine and I didn't want to worry anyone else with them. I always felt that I have to survive on my own or I'm weak. I met hundreds of times with psychiatrist and ate some useless pills that just made me feel worse about everything.. haven't met my psychiatrist for a year or used any medication. I'm on a bad road again and I feel like I'm fucking up my family in the process. I don't want them to go over the same shit we once did. I feel like keeping everything to myself this time to the end and take it to grave with me just hoping people understand. I'm fucked up and I know it.. lets just see where life leads me this time.. I will carry on as long as I can and when the time comes I will cry for help once more.
Yeah move on, just had to get something off my mind.
[editline]Edited:[/editline]
Oh I did call one of those helpline phone things today and had 30min chat with random person encouraging me to talk with my family. I would but it feels like really hard thing to do right now..
[QUOTE=rulssi;35318995]When I was suicidal I told one of my friends about it few times but he didn't really care so I stopped it and changed like nothing was wrong. Few years later when I tried suicide I just wrote small text to my friends not to blame themselves about anything. I never wanted to hurt my friends with my depression and I never really brought it up or ask for help. My problems were all mine and I didn't want to worry anyone else with them. I always felt that I have to survive on my own or I'm weak. I met hundreds of times with psychiatrist and ate some useless pills that just made me feel worse about everything.. haven't met my psychiatrist for a year or used any medication. I'm on a bad road again and I feel like I'm fucking up my family in the process. I don't want them to go over the same shit we once did. I feel like keeping everything to myself this time to the end and take it to grave with me just hoping people understand. I'm fucked up and I know it.. lets just see where life leads me this time.. I will carry on as long as I can and when the time comes I will cry for help once more.
Yeah move on, just had to get something off my mind.[/QUOTE]
What are the circumstances surrounding your suicidal urges? Can you identify a circumstantial reason you're unhappy, or are you unsure of why you feel the way you do?
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318986]Let's rephrase what I've said so far.
People who are suicidal need help.
People who are suicidal WANT to be helped.
Sometimes, people who are suicidal cry out for help, in different ways. Maybe they'll talk to a friend about their feelings, or they'll tell someone close to them that they don't want to live.
A responsible friend will, in that case, urge them to seek professional help and inform others who are close to that suicidal friend of the danger.
At that point, if the suicidal person genuinely wants to get better, they usually express concern about seeing a medical professional, but make an effort of some sort.
When a suicidal person has repeatedly rejected opportunities for help, seemingly content instead to remain miserable, wanting to be seen by the world at large as some tragic hero, nobly suffering because of wrongs done to them by cruel people that are entirely undeserved, deliberately avoiding every chance provided to have their condition improve because it would take away their fantasy, then it's a good sign of danger.
The woman I knew had police called to her house at least twice when she claimed she was killing herself, once by me and once by someone else, and they found that she hadn't harmed herself at all and left. Apparently, she had a reputation with police as an attention-whore, too. Eventually, this behavior left her friends, me included, too emotionally drained to be sympathetic for much longer, because she seemed to enjoy frightening us. When she finally did kill herself, we were all devastated, but it didn't take us as long as it could have to get over it. We had little pity left to give, because she'd leeched us dry of it long ago.[/QUOTE]Some people don't believe that professional help will actually help them. It's easy for you, a rational thinking person, to believe that she would have agreed to professional help if she really wanted help, but you seem to forget that most people who are suicidal are not rational.
Some of these people try to sustain themselves with pity. When they inevitably find out that it won't help them it usually ends in disaster.
[QUOTE=Tippmann357;35318866]First off, I formally studied abnormal psychology and mental disorders and it is safe for me to say you have no idea how impaired people become due to mental illness. It's easy for you to say she wasn't forced, it's pretty difficult not to listen to your own brain telling you to die.[/QUOTE]
Mr. Abnormal Psychology guy, maybe you should help me :v:
I agree with you on your point though. It is extremely difficult to listen to your own brain telling you to die. I, however, had the ability to scream out for help using actions. At some subconscious level, I believe I understood that my brain should not be telling me these things. I assume some other people are like this as well, namely the subject of this article.
I would interpret her publicized suicide as a cry for help, every second she wished someone would just bust in and save her from the hell, real or imagined, that she was going through. It's pretty fucking hellish when your own mind turns against you.
But yeah, to all the people out there being a dumbass about this, try to enter her mind.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318986]Let's rephrase what I've said so far.
People who are suicidal need help.
People who are suicidal WANT to be helped.
Sometimes, people who are suicidal cry out for help, in different ways. Maybe they'll talk to a friend about their feelings, or they'll tell someone close to them that they don't want to live.
A responsible friend will, in that case, urge them to seek professional help and inform others who are close to that suicidal friend of the danger.
At that point, if the suicidal person genuinely wants to get better, they usually express concern about seeing a medical professional, but make an effort of some sort.
When a suicidal person has repeatedly rejected opportunities for help, seemingly content instead to remain miserable, wanting to be seen by the world at large as some tragic hero, nobly suffering because of wrongs done to them by cruel people that are entirely undeserved, deliberately avoiding every chance provided to have their condition improve because it would take away their fantasy, then it's a good sign of danger.
The woman I knew had police called to her house at least twice when she claimed she was killing herself, once by me and once by someone else, and they found that she hadn't harmed herself at all and left. Apparently, she had a reputation with police as an attention-whore, too. Eventually, this behavior left her friends, me included, too emotionally drained to be sympathetic for much longer, because she seemed to enjoy frightening us. When she finally did kill herself, we were all devastated, but it didn't take us as long as it could have to get over it. We had little pity left to give, because she'd leeched us dry of it long ago.[/QUOTE]
you aren't the epitome of information regarding every suicidal person everywhere. you have no authority to speak on the situation and even still you write off every suicidal person as an attention whore based on your unique experience.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35316414]No, she was a terrible person for screwing with my emotions and those of all the people who cared about her and expended every effort to try and make her feel better about herself. She WANTED to be miserable, and she WANTED to die, but she'd pretend otherwise.[/QUOTE]
She's a product of her environment. Doesn't mean she's not responsible for it, but the people responsible for her environment are at fault as well.
say what you wish, if she had been given to another family in a different environment on the day she was born she would not of turned out like this. I hate to get sentimental but society should look what creates "awful" people instead of labeling them awful and disregarding them.
I'm hard pressed to find anyone who truly wishes to be miserable. Nothing is that simple.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;35319046]Some people don't believe that professional help will actually help them. It's easy for you, a rational thinking person, to believe that she would have agreed to professional help if she really wanted help, but you seem to forget that most people who are suicidal are not rational.
Some of these people try to sustain themselves with pity. When they inevitably find out that it won't help them it usually ends in disaster.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps so. If that is the case, then I've judged very wrongly indeed.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318986]Let's rephrase what I've said so far.
People who are suicidal need help.
People who are suicidal WANT to be helped.
Sometimes, people who are suicidal cry out for help, in different ways. Maybe they'll talk to a friend about their feelings, or they'll tell someone close to them that they don't want to live.
A responsible friend will, in that case, urge them to seek professional help and inform others who are close to that suicidal friend of the danger.
At that point, if the suicidal person genuinely wants to get better, they usually express concern about seeing a medical professional, but make an effort of some sort.
When a suicidal person has repeatedly rejected opportunities for help, seemingly content instead to remain miserable, wanting to be seen by the world at large as some tragic hero, nobly suffering because of wrongs done to them by cruel people that are entirely undeserved, deliberately avoiding every chance provided to have their condition improve because it would take away their fantasy, then it's a good sign of danger.
The woman I knew had police called to her house at least twice when she claimed she was killing herself, once by me and once by someone else, and they found that she hadn't harmed herself at all and left. Apparently, she had a reputation with police as an attention-whore, too. Eventually, this behavior left her friends, me included, too emotionally drained to be sympathetic for much longer, because she seemed to enjoy frightening us. When she finally did kill herself, we were all devastated, but it didn't take us as long as it could have to get over it. We had little pity left to give, because she'd leeched us dry of it long ago.[/QUOTE]
Maybe she felt utterly alone and confused? For one who makes the claim of having a form of depression, your lack of empathy for what happens to some people is startling and is made all the more so by the abhorrent way you dismiss her suffering as the manipulations of an attention seeking whore.
[QUOTE=Dachande;35319064]you aren't the epitome of information regarding every suicidal person everywhere. you have no authority to speak on the situation and even still you write off every suicidal person as an attention whore based on your unique experience.[/QUOTE]
Such a thing is similar to racism or ethnicity-discrimination or any kind of discrimination. Irrational thoughts are formed based upon subjective, experience based thought patterns. Really, this guy's form of what I like to call "difference attacking" is no better than any others.
By difference attacking, I mean that subconscious thing that humans have that make them want to attack others that they percieve as being different, in some pathetic attempt to strengthen themselves and those of their own kind.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35318986]
When a suicidal person has repeatedly rejected opportunities for help, seemingly content instead to remain miserable, wanting to be seen by the world at large as some tragic hero, nobly suffering because of wrongs done to them by cruel people that are entirely undeserved, deliberately avoiding every chance provided to have their condition improve because it would take away their fantasy, then it's a good sign of danger.[/QUOTE]
so what, we just give up on them and let them kill themselves? judging by your language this seems like a rather delusional state. isn't that when we would want to help people most, when they are seemingly absent from reality?
[QUOTE=ayaki;35319096]Maybe she felt utterly alone and confused? For one who makes the claim of having a form of depression, your lack of empathy for what happens to some people is startling and is made all the more so by the abhorrent way you describe her as 'an attention seeking whore'[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I lack knowledge of how different degrees of depression could have different symptoms. To the best of my understanding, the main differences were simply a difference in the severity of the feeling. Aren't depression and suicidal urges two different conditions that are often found hand in hand? I've known people who are manic depressive, but not at all suicidal.
[QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;35319049]Mr. Abnormal Psychology guy, maybe you should help me :v:
I agree with you on your point though. It is extremely difficult to listen to your own brain telling you to die. I, however, had the ability to scream out for help using actions. At some subconscious level, I believe I understood that my brain should not be telling me these things. I assume some other people are like this as well, namely the subject of this article.
[/QUOTE]
True, there are people who know they have problems and they're thinking isn't normal. However, simply knowing you have x disorder isn't enough to make thoughts and feelings stop, especially if it's biological. It's just something you can't change and people seek ways to escape the constant feelings of being in an abyss.
[QUOTE=fox '09;35319070]She's a product of her environment. Doesn't mean she's not responsible for it, but the people responsible for her environment are at fault as well.
say what you wish, if she had been given to another family in a different environment on the day she was born she would not of turned out like this. I hate to get sentimental but society should look what creates "awful" people instead of labeling them awful and disregarding them.
I'm hard pressed to find anyone who truly wishes to be miserable. Nothing is that simple.[/QUOTE]
I agree. isms, ias, and disorders are nothing more than institutionalised segregation. Oh, someone has *ia, let's put them in an facility!
Reminds me of the days of racial segregation and how "coloureds" and "non-coloureds" had their own separate facilties.
[QUOTE=Tippmann357;35319164]True, there are people who know they have problems and they're thinking isn't normal. However, simply knowing you have x disorder isn't enough to make thoughts and feelings stop, especially if it's biological. It's just something you can't change and people seek ways to escape the constant feelings of being in an abyss.[/QUOTE]
I seemed to have no problem doing so. I am leading myself to believe my depression was a symptom of a larger problem (some sort of difference that I should really seek a diagnosis on,) then it wasn't the same thing. You know, there's chronic depression and justified depression.
But yeah, I was able to recognise certain thought patterns, then kick them out as irrational and illogical. I can tell that I am still depressed at some level or another, but I'm not running around trying to find things to kill myself anymore.
Oh, hey, people appear to disagree with my first point. How fortunate for you all that you're a part of the majority.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35319135]Perhaps I lack knowledge of how different degrees of depression could have different symptoms. To the best of my understanding, the main differences were simply a difference in the severity of the feeling. Aren't depression and suicidal urges two different conditions that are often found hand in hand? I've known people who are manic depressive, but not at all suicidal.[/QUOTE]
yeah they can have different symptoms, there isn't necessarily one way in which all depressed people will act. they just have an overall chemical imbalance, which is very hard to judge how it will directly cause people to act, and even harder to understand what is going on in their head (they are just more volatile). but yes, depression and suicidal are different things, though i'm not sure if suicidal can exist without depression. you are right though, people can be depressed but not suicidal.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35319135]Perhaps I lack knowledge of how different degrees of depression could have different symptoms. To the best of my understanding, the main differences were simply a difference in the severity of the feeling. Aren't depression and suicidal urges two different conditions that are often found hand in hand? I've known people who are manic depressive, but not at all suicidal.[/QUOTE]
I can't believe you so flippantly condemned her in a such a vitriolic way, without even trying to first educate yourself. That is disgusting.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35319111]so what, we just give up on them and let them kill themselves? judging by your language this seems like a rather delusional state. isn't that when we would want to help people most, when they are seemingly absent from reality?[/QUOTE]
what the hell are you going to do? constantly try and care for them when they constantly refuse help?
[QUOTE=J!NX;35319185]what the hell are you going to do? constantly try and care for them when they constantly refuse help?[/QUOTE]
basically
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