[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41641428]Which is why companies like V&S were privatized in 1994?
Please explain to me what protectionism is, and what free trade is. Give me one good argument for protectionism.[/QUOTE]
free trade in theory says a that a goverment should not discriminate with imports, exports, offer protectionism to national companies and apply quotas, which in theory would be good for all sides.
except thats bull, because companies can simply seek the cheapest labor(a.k.a china, eastern asia), screwing the poor in said countries, and taking jobs from other countries, which in turn pretty much destroy labor rights in a race to the bottom, to try and get companies in your country.
now please explain what you think free trade and protectionism is, and give one good reason why you think free trade will work.
also V&S was only privatized fully in 2008.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41641528]free trade in theory says a that a goverment should not discriminate with imports, exports, offer protectionism to national companies and apply quotas, which in theory would be good for all sides.[/quote]
Indeed, Mr Ricardo was quite fond of free trade, using comparative advantage.
[quote]except thats bull, because companies can simply seek the cheapest labor(a.k.a china, eastern asia), screwing the poor in said countries, and taking jobs from other countries, which in turn pretty much destroy labor rights in a race to the bottom, to try and get companies in your country.[/quote]
Au contraire.
Why do these people take these jobs in poor countries? If it screwed them over, surely they would not take these jobs?
Well, the answer is that for many east Asians, factory work is better than subsistence agriculture. Farming makes hardly any money anymore.
Do you want to know why farming makes so little money? Because European farms are protected from foreign competition. They drive down the price of foods and cause problems for farmers in developing countries. They can't make money anymore. So, they go to the cities to find work. Wages are higher there, and at least you have better opportunities.
Protectionism is causing the problem.
[quote]now please explain what you think free trade and protectionism is, and give one good reason why you think free trade will work.[/quote]
Protectionism is whereby the state protects national industries from foreign competition. Prices will be raised on imports, companies may be subsidized, quotas demanded, etc.
Free trade is quite successful empirically.
Why? Because it results in the movement of production to areas best suited to make them.
Look at Britain. From the 1850s, until the 1930s, they adhered to Free Trade. They were also the richest country in the world during that time, and the most powerful.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41641675]Indeed, Mr Ricardo was quite fond of free trade, using comparative advantage.
Au contraire.
Why do these people take these jobs in poor countries? If it screwed them over, surely they would not take these jobs?
Well, the answer is that for many east Asians, factory work is better than subsistence agriculture. Farming makes hardly any money anymore.
Do you want to know why farming makes so little money? Because European farms are protected from foreign competition. They drive down the price of foods and cause problems for farmers in developing countries. They can't make money anymore. So, they go to the cities to find work. Wages are higher there, and at least you have better opportunities.
Protectionism is causing the problem.
Protectionism is whereby the state protects national industries from foreign competition. Prices will be raised on imports, companies may be subsidized, quotas demanded, etc.
Free trade is quite successful empirically.
Why? Because it results in the movement of production to areas best suited to make them.
Look at Britain. From the 1850s, until the 1930s, they adhered to Free Trade. They were also the richest country in the world during that time, and the most powerful.[/QUOTE]
what you said makes no sense, its a clear case of more powerful countries getting away with employing one-sided protectionism, such as the case of nafta and mexico corn, plus whats getting those subsistance farmers out to the cities isn't european farmers, and its their own nations(or multicorporations) large agribusiness removing them, or in china's case, the goverment literally removing them by force.
also with free trade there is almost no way for a company in a small country to start from zero, because they simply don't have the capital.
free trade is an illusion, it can never work, because it would require for all sides to be morally upstanding and actually respect the entire notion of it, and there is no morality in capitalism, only money.
also i laugh at the notion that you consider working in say foxconn a "better opportunity", where they had to take measures such as putting netting around the factories to prevent suicide, but did jackshit about improving worker's conditions, they take these jobs cause they're desperate.
truly better opportunity, free market at its finest.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41641993]what you said makes no sense, its a clear case of more powerful countries getting away with employing one-sided protectionism, such as the case of nafta and mexico corn, plus whats getting those subsistance farmers out to the cities isn't european farmers, and its their own nations(or multicorporations) large agribusiness removing them, or in china's case, the goverment literally removing them by force.[/QUOTE]
They aren't leaving because of that. People are flocking to the cities because work in the cities makes more money.
This is why the industrial revolution happened. Factory workers make more money than farmers.
[quote]also with free trade there is almost no way for a company in a small country to start from zero, because they simply don't have the capital.[/quote]
You do know that you can get loans, sell shares on the stock market, borrow money from the government in the form of a bond, or even do a bit of crowdfunding.
As long as you have a profitable idea, people will invest. Due to the poor business climate (often dictators engaging in petty wars) in developing nations, this process takes longer.
Peace brings prosperity.
[quote]free trade is an illusion, it can never work, because it would require for all sides to be morally upstanding and actually respect the entire notion of it, and there is no morality in capitalism, only money.[/quote]
Do explain why internal trade works fine then? There are little to no controls on the movement of goods within countries.
It's because the system literally broke down in the middle ages. Individual towns and cities tried protecting each others businesses.
It only leads to long term stagnation and eventual collapse of the home industry. If you have to protect an industry, that's a sign it's dying.
[quote]also i laugh at the notion that you consider working in say foxconn a "better opportunity", where they had to take measures such as putting netting around the factories to prevent suicide, but did jackshit about improving worker's conditions, they take these jobs cause they're desperate.[/quote]
Erm, in no way do I support Foxconns measures.
My point is that working in a factory is BETTER than working on a farm.
[quote]truly better opportunity, free market at its finest.[/QUOTE]
What is your ideal system? Protectionism all around?
Protectionism is dying anyways. It's a good thing.
comparative advantage isn't an illusion
[editline]30th July 2013[/editline]
it's why we have nice things
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41642108]They aren't leaving because of that. People are flocking to the cities because work in the cities makes more money.
This is why the industrial revolution happened. Factory workers make more money than farmers.
[/QUOTE]
farmers were essentially forcibly removed from farming due to the creating early forms of semi-automated farming such as seed drills and threshers, which then led to horrible exploitation of men, women and children, but by all means continue to paint this rosy image of the past.
[QUOTE]You do know that you can get loans, sell shares on the stock market, borrow money from the government in the form of a bond, or even do a bit of crowdfunding.
As long as you have a profitable idea, people will invest. Due to the poor business climate (often dictators engaging in petty wars) in developing nations, this process takes longer.
Peace brings prosperity.
[/QUOTE]
except you seem to forget that war isn't necessary to prevent competition from arising, the US pushes and threatens countries all the time with sanctions and using other means to get what it wants for instance, europe does the same, plus what you just said about loans IS subsiding, and thats one of the things free trade is against.
[QUOTE]Do explain why internal trade works fine then? There are little to no controls on the movement of goods within countries.
It's because the system literally broke down in the middle ages. Individual towns and cities tried protecting each others businesses.
It only leads to long term stagnation and eventual collapse of the home industry. If you have to protect an industry, that's a sign it's dying.[/QUOTE]
to compare internal trade with global trade shows you're just bullshitting now, there is no need to worry about global competition, lets not even get at the extra logistics involved, due to distance, language, culture, legal issues.
plus the crisis at the end of the middle ages was due to the little ice age, which caused widespread famine due to harsh winters, not due to "lol protectionism", again you're just throwing bullshit to prove your point, without even bothering to check.
[QUOTE]Erm, in no way do I support Foxconns measures.
My point is that working in a factory is BETTER than working on a farm.[/QUOTE]
working in a factory MAY be better, and thats subjective, some would rather work in farms, but sweatshots are all around worse, take a guess which one is getting more common.
[QUOTE]What is your ideal system? Protectionism all around?
Protectionism is dying anyways. It's a good thing.[/QUOTE]
no, its not a good thing, recent countries became rich by USING protectionism, and during england "free trade" era, that wasn't free trade, it was raw, brutal, genocidal imperialism.
the fact that you actually defend one of the most brutal imperialist eras in human history is amusing as an example of proper free trade is ridiculous, are you dainbramagestudios in secret maybe?
i'm not even bothering to answer anymore, you're just pulling stuff out of your ass now.
I'm kinda with Wizards on this one. I am all for free trade, and comparative advantage rules and stuff but sometimes you kinda gotta protect your domestic economy. There are times where you just have to suck it up and put in place tariffs and/or quotas to keep your own economy from collapsing/sucking.
[editline]30th July 2013[/editline]
Cuz, Wizards is right it's really difficult to start up in an industry with free trade all dai err dai, when the world price is probably way lower than you can possibly compete with. Which is probably an issue when a country wants to develop an actual economy. Looking at you China.
Comparative advantage is still not an illusion.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;41642499]farmers were essentially forcibly removed from farming due to the creating early forms of semi-automated farming such as seed drills and threshers, which then led to horrible exploitation of men, women and children, but by all means continue to paint this rosy image of the past.[/quote]
Food prices dropped though. Famines stopped happening for the first time in history. Nutrition improved as food could be moved more quickly by railways. Is this not a good thing?
[quote]plus what you just said about loans IS subsiding, and thats one of the things free trade is against.[/quote]
A loan isn't a subsidy. It's an agreement to borrow capital with the promise to pay back capital at a later date.
[quote]to compare internal trade with global trade shows you're just bullshitting now, there is no need to worry about global competition, lets not even get at the extra logistics involved, due to distance, language, culture, legal issues.[/quote]
If language, distance, culture, and legal issues are such impediments to trade, why bother with protectionism? :)
[quote]plus the crisis at the end of the middle ages was due to the little ice age, which caused widespread famine due to harsh winters, not due to "lol protectionism", again you're just throwing bullshit to prove your point, without even bothering to check.[/quote]
You have a shocking awful knowledge of the Medieval era. The population was more reduced through the Black Death than famine.
I am speaking about PRICE CONTROLS.
In the Medieval Era, guilds, magistrates, etc would often set prices to ensure fair prices for goods.
At the end of the Medieval era, this system broke down due to rapid changes in prices. The rapid decrease in population caused prices to plummet, and the attempted controls of prices ultimately failed because people ignored them.
[quote]working in a factory MAY be better, and thats subjective, some would rather work in farms, but sweatshots are all around worse, take a guess which one is getting more common.[/quote]
How is working in a sweatshop worse than a farm?
[quote]no, its not a good thing, recent countries became rich by USING protectionism, and during england "free trade" era, that wasn't free trade, it was raw, brutal, genocidal imperialism.[/QUOTE]
Well, protectionism is dying. It's no surprise that developing countries want rid of protectionism as well. :[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Agreement_on_Tariffs_and_Trade#Rounds[/url]
[quote]Geneva April 1947 7 months 23 Tariffs Signing of GATT, 45,000 tariff concessions affecting $10 billion of trade[/quote]
[quote]Torquay September 1950 8 months 38 Tariffs Countries exchanged some 8,700 tariff concessions, cutting the 1948 tariff levels by 25%[/quote]
[quote]Uruguay September 1986 87 months 123 Tariffs, non-tariff measures, rules, services, intellectual property, dispute settlement, textiles, agriculture, creation of WTO, etc The round led to the creation of WTO, and extended the range of trade negotiations, leading to major reductions in tariffs (about 40%) and agricultural subsidies, an agreement to allow full access for textiles and clothing from developing countries, and an extension of intellectual property rights.[/quote]
Try to stop the march of progress my friend.
:)
[editline]30th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Reaver1991;41642812]I'm kinda with Wizards on this one. I am all for free trade, and comparative advantage rules and stuff but sometimes you kinda gotta protect your domestic economy. There are times where you just have to suck it up and put in place tariffs and/or quotas to keep your own economy from collapsing/sucking.[/QUOTE]
Or you could invest into new industries instead of protecting old ones.
well yeah, but that can take time, and jobs and shit
[QUOTE=Reaver1991;41643127]well yeah, but that can take time, and jobs and shit[/QUOTE]
Jobs and shit?
Let us assume you decided to invest into a new industry instead of an old one.
Almost immediately, you need to hire people to plan out the construction of new buildings, new machinery, etc. Technicians, Architects, land planners, etc. Next, you need to hire people to produce these machines, to build the new buildings, to develop infrastructure.
You will need to hire a lot of people to do this.
Tariffs are just a delaying measure. Why bother with that and instead just build the new industry now instead?
[editline]30th July 2013[/editline]
Or one could rate me dumb without refuting mainstream economic thought. Such is the fate of a manchild.
True communism can't happen when your neighbor is a capitalist.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41630582]Better commies than facists.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'd also rather be shot to death than stabbed to death.
Just because one is a slightly better compared to the other doesn't exactly make it desirable.
[QUOTE=wanksta11;41643341]True communism can't happen when your neighbor is a capitalist.[/QUOTE]
Thus it necessitates killing him.
Anarcho-Communist here. I can't begin to say how pleased I am with the Greek workers taking it upon themselves to help out the community. Truly a nice example of Anarchist and Communist principles.
[editline]29th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41643412]Thus it necessitates killing him.[/QUOTE]
"What is diplomacy?"
[editline]29th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=wanksta11;41643341]True communism can't happen when your neighbor is a capitalist.[/QUOTE]
Care to elaborate? You could say the same thing to pretty much any kind of society you wish to construct.
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