• Bill would let schools teach Bible literacy (in Kentucky)
    89 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49914267]Of course most people know next to nothing about its actual content, what I'm saying is that most of it's actual content is irrelevant to society today except for the things that most people already know. And I'm not using this as an excuse to keep an optional class out of schools -- I'm responding directly to a specific reason often given for why it belongs in schools.[/QUOTE] Couldn't this argument be made about basically any academic endeavor? And as someone else mentioned, TONS of literature make common references to passages and themes from the bible that people today wouldn't generally pick up on.
[QUOTE=Colliseemoe;49914344]Couldn't this argument be made about basically any academic endeavor? And as someone else mentioned, TONS of literature make common references to passages and themes from the bible that people today wouldn't generally pick up on.[/QUOTE] Religion in schools is a pretty thin line as it is, so I think we should handle it a bit more carefully than most other "academic endeavors", and I don't think that that's a good enough reason for something so controversial.
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49914402]Religion in schools is a pretty thin line as it is, so I think we should handle it a bit more carefully than most other "academic endeavors", and I don't think that that's a good enough reason for something so controversial.[/QUOTE] I guess I'm missing what makes it so controversial then. I see nothing wrong with discussing religion in the context of culture, history, and society in an academic setting as long as it's taught with a neutral stance.
[QUOTE=Colliseemoe;49914428]I guess I'm missing what makes it so controversial then. I see nothing wrong with discussing religion in the context of culture, history, and society in an academic setting as long as it's taught with a neutral stance.[/QUOTE] Because the potential for teachers to abuse that freedom is pretty high for something that will probably only benefit a handful of already religious students. [B]Edit[/B] And by "already religious" I should have said people who have other ways of learning these things if they want to.
If they want to teach the relevance of the Bible, they should teach it in history class along with the other forms of religions. My school had a "bible study" class that was pretty much a jesus worshipping center, not a source of education. Bible belt for you.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49914140]To be fair, we could also probably ask what relevance the ramblings of some insane Greeks from the iron age have today. A lot of western society and culture is heavily built upon all sorts of various religions and mythologies (primarily christian and indo-european). I mean you really don't have to go looking very hard to see the number of things in society which link back to religion in some capacity. Even the days of the week and everyday phrases we use have some sort of basis in religion. If you want a deep and thorough understanding of western civilization, you should at least have some knowledge of Christianity - much like how its impossible to fully understand India without Hinduism or China without reference to Confucian philosophy.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Svinnik;49914165]You do realize that to understand the history of Europe, you have to at least know a bit about Christianity? Western society is built upon Judeo-Christian values which are derived from the Bible.I mean, how do you understand such important events such as the Great Schism when you don't know the most basic parts of the bible?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Colliseemoe;49914169]Really? The bible is one of the most influential books of all time, especially in Western culture. The amount of classic art and literature derived from its themes are countless. A lot of contemporary work parallels biblical stories and themes too. Studying the bible can greatly deepen your understanding of a lot of facets of Western society: namely media and entertainment but also common values and even law. I'm not even religious but you really can't deny the significance of the bible. Basically what the three guys above me said.[/QUOTE] Okay lets put aside the fact that you three seriously think an optional bible reading (aka not historical) class for public schools in Kentucky is going to be an entirely fair and honest portrayal of historical Christianity. Lets put aside the fact that I explicitly said that theology is a perfectly legitimate field of study. You can absolutely grasp the histories of Europe and later North America without ever having picked up a Bible. Understanding Christianity's impact on Western civilization is one thing (I also never come close to denying the significance of the Bible) but I absolutely contest the idea that it's a prerequisite for contemporary culture. How can you understand important historical events without knowing basic parts of the Bible? How about secular sources like this [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism"]Wiki [/URL]article? [editline]11th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Map in a box;49914557]If they want to teach the relevance of the Bible, they should teach it in history class along with the other forms of religions. My school had a "bible study" class that was pretty much a jesus worshipping center, not a source of education. Bible belt for you.[/QUOTE] Basically this. Teach the history, not the religion.
[QUOTE=Colliseemoe;49914169]Really? The bible is one of the most influential books of all time, especially in Western culture. The amount of classic art and literature derived from its themes are countless. A lot of contemporary work parallels biblical stories and themes too. Studying the bible can greatly deepen your understanding of a lot of facets of Western society: namely media and entertainment but also common values and even law. I'm not even religious but you really can't deny the significance of the bible. Basically what the three guys above me said.[/QUOTE] It's not even one of the most influential books of all time. It's the THE single most influential book of all time. It's literally impossible to have any deep understand of western society without having a working knowledge of the Bible.
A religious studies class would be a better option. It would be way too easy to turn the bible study class into a regular sermon or another way for bible nuts to try and convert children. Theological studies is incredibly interesting, showing how religion influenced cultures, history, and other religions. I remember a lot of what I learn during the sections of middle school history on religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism and I find myself referencing those in discussions often. Of course knowing bible belt states just mentioning the word Islam in a classroom would have the entire state furious over how teachers are trying to convince their youth to join isis or some shit.
Isn't Bible literacy in Kentucky useless if nobody's literate to begin with?
As long as it is an optional elective and the teachers do their best to present an unbiased view. Theres no reason these teachers should have to teach every religion, In france you don't learn about the california gold rush and in alaska you don't learn about every single indian revolution. Gradeschools do the best they can with the time they have with the student to prepare them for a life where they are living. If a student decides they want to explore religion beyond Christianity they should be supplied with all the knowledge to do so but to force the teachers to cover every religion would thin their curriculum out so much you wouldn't know anything you couldn't learn from wikipedia.
[QUOTE=BoopieDoopie2;49914880]As long as it is an optional elective and the teachers do their best to present an unbiased view.[B] Theres no reason these teachers should have to teach every religion, In france you don't learn about the california gold rush and in alaska you don't learn about every single indian revolution. Gradeschools do the best they can with the time they have with the student to prepare them for a life where they are living. If a student decides they want to explore religion beyond Christianity they should be supplied with all the knowledge to do so but to force the teachers to cover every religion would thin their curriculum out so much you wouldn't know anything you couldn't learn from wikipedia[/B].[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you even on about?
[QUOTE=KingOfScience;49913803]I don't see why this is so terrible? It seems like they're only trying to teach it from a purely literary perspective, as if it were a story, in the context of helping to understand the myriad biblical references in literature. Plus it's an optional elective.[/QUOTE] The issue is that's not what this is about; they're just trying to legitimize teaching the Bible in schools so they can pave the way to drag more and more religious elements into public education, and this is the best chance they have at getting a start. Today it's "Bible literacy", tomorrow it's Creationism and prayer sessions. It's a slippery fucking slope, they know it, and they're hoping they can get away with this so they can go ahead and push everyone in the state down that slope and get them entangled in their agenda. It's a painfully dishonest tactic to peddle "Bible literacy" as something innocent. But people are gullible enough they'll fall for that ploy sometimes. It's like when they tried pushing "Intelligent Design" to be taught alongside evolutionary theory in schools, when in reality all ID amounts to is Creationism with a more scientific-sounding name (which was done deliberately, again, to make it sound like it has some kind of legitimacy to it... when in reality, it's the same crackpot ideas-- just dressed up under a different name).
would've jumped for an opportunity like this in high school. I grew up in a non-religious household and don't know a damn thing besides the holy trinity
[QUOTE=OneFourth;49916269]would've jumped for an opportunity like this in high school. I grew up in a non-religious household and don't know a damn thing besides the holy trinity[/QUOTE] Too much of our lives are regulated by age old traditions that Christianity incorporated in it's dogmas in order to absorb more people. Not knowing anything about that just because you don't believe in God is at best irresponsible.
[QUOTE=OneFourth;49916269]would've jumped for an opportunity like this in high school. I grew up in a non-religious household and don't know a damn thing besides the holy trinity[/QUOTE] Why not research it yourself? Serious question.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49916404]I know very little of the bible because it is such a turnoff for many personal reasons. It hasn't hindered my life at all. Every time someone mentions some biblical allegory in a discussion, I just pretend I know what they're talking about. Seems to work so far![/QUOTE] It's not really about the allegories. Think about Christmas, Easter. Where does Jesus and Santa/Easter Bunny meet? There isn't a biblical explanation for it, but there's a historical reason that involves christianity.
[QUOTE=OneFourth;49916269]would've jumped for an opportunity like this in high school. I grew up in a non-religious household and don't know a damn thing besides the holy trinity[/QUOTE] well i was raised catholic but that doesn't mean i didn't learn some of the differences between that and the protestant churches on my own. as far as the religious backstories, nothing stops you from reading them, a lot of the old testament stories are actually pretty much narratives instead of sermons like the new testament stories are like the story of sodam and gamore, is the moral that wicked people get destroyed?? NO, its OBEY GOD TO THE FUCKING T because even though they fled, his wife disobeyed for 1 second and was smited for it. meanwhile in the new testament we get stories like peter never believing that he could renounce jesus, then while trying to save him, he renounces him 3 times old testament stories in general are a confusing mess
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49916514]It's not really about the allegories. Think about Christmas, Easter. Where does Jesus and Santa/Easter Bunny meet? There isn't a biblical explanation for it, but there's a historical reason that involves christianity.[/QUOTE] But should we have a bible study class for things like that? Most holiday origins were explained to me in history class -- you don't need a deep understanding of the bible to understand the "historical reason that involved christianity" for these things.
[QUOTE=Sableye;49916520]well i was raised catholic but that doesn't mean i didn't learn some of the differences between that and the protestant churches on my own. as far as the religious backstories, nothing stops you from reading them, a lot of the old testament stories are actually pretty much narratives instead of sermons like the new testament stories are like the story of sodam and gamore, is the moral that wicked people get destroyed?? NO, its OBEY GOD TO THE FUCKING T because even though they fled, his wife disobeyed for 1 second and was smited for it. meanwhile in the new testament we get stories like peter never believing that he could renounce jesus, then while trying to save him, he renounces him 3 times old testament stories in general are a confusing mess[/QUOTE] I can't wrap my head around the fact that Christians still use the Old Testament. It was written for the Hebrews to guide them through a specific part of their story. [QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49916526]But should we have a bible study class for things like that? Most holiday origins were explained to me in history class -- you don't need a deep understanding of the bible to understand the "historical reason that involved christianity" for these things.[/QUOTE] I don't know, people have knee-jerk reactions about religious related stuff being taught at schools.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49916556]I can't wrap my head around the fact that Christians still use the Old Testament. It was written for the Hebrews to guide them through a specific part of their story. I don't know, people have knee-jerk reactions about religious related stuff being taught at schools.[/QUOTE] i always thought it was more for padding the bible, i mean the 4 gospels are each a retelling of the same story, while the other books are all basically Q&A from the disciples, and a short epilogue from the story of jesus, and then you get to the hocus pocus stuff in Revelations made to scare people because no religion is complete without its own telling of the end of days, so stuffing the torah in there makes your book look more impressive because its big and thick
like it took me a long time to realize this (or maybe just get old enough to) but the letters from such and such to one of the disciples are litterally "hey so we got this wise guy here who's discovered a paradox, what do we do?"
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49916556]I can't wrap my head around the fact that Christians still use the Old Testament. It was written for the Hebrews to guide them through a specific part of their story. [/QUOTE] I think if anything needs dumped it's Revelation. That might be a controversial opinion, I don't know.
as long as they cover every religion, including pastafariasm, then im fine with it
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49916556]I can't wrap my head around the fact that Christians still use the Old Testament. It was written for the Hebrews to guide them through a specific part of their story. [/QUOTE] not all christians. certainly not catholics. baptists, definitely tho, but theyre backwards and is often a generational issue. in fact most baptists operate off their own psycho version of the bible cobbled together from many sources
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49916602]I think if anything needs dumped it's Revelation. That might be a controversial opinion, I don't know.[/QUOTE] Another thing I can never wrap my head around is people taking Revelations literaly.
[QUOTE=Nautsabes;49916620]not all christians. certainly not catholics. baptists, definitely tho, but theyre backwards and is often a generational issue. in fact most baptists operate off their own psycho version of the bible cobbled together from many sources[/QUOTE] The OT gives context to the NT. Without understand the OT you simply can't have a comprehensive view of Christianity. So, so many analogies, examples, and teachings in the NT find most of their meaning directly from the OT. Also, wtf are you talking about with Baptists. They hold to the same Bible as every other protestant group.
Yeah, just gonna say it. Slippery Slope. Now for why. I think this is a great idea on paper. I identify as an atheist, and even I can see the remarkable (and sometimes insane) impact religion has had on cultures and humanity as a whole. I think some time should be spent (electively of course, there are more important subjects to teach) informing people about religions worldwide and their various influences on customs and traditions. But this could VERY quickly turn into another "intelligent design" situation where religious diehards attempt to shoehorn preaching religion into a regular school curriculum.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;49913823]It's treading a very dangerous line in the best of circumstances, and it would be better not to have it at all. My required history courses covered world religions just fine. Having a class focused on the main religious text of only one religion, which so happens to be both the major religion of the US and the holy book of the religion of the primary sponsor of the bill seems like a huge conflict of interest if you want a secular curriculum.[/QUOTE] To be honest a lot of european states have elective religious studies. I see nothing wrong with this.
I went to a Catholic high school. We had mandatory Christianity classes. In them, we learned about the historical background regarding the invention of Christianity, the cultural aspects of it, and what the various sects of Chritsianity believed. We dissected the bible, learned the over arching themes, especially the Gospels and Corinthians, and how Christianity radically changed over two thousand years. I learned an incredible amount of information that I greatly appreciate knowing, and I also came to terms with my own religious identity that I struggled with, by figuring out I didn't believe in any religion at all nor a higher power. Learning all of this information helped me to understand the reason why religion is invented, the pros and cons of it, as well as how it affects modern day society. If this was taught in a neutral, educated, non-spiritual, non-supernatural way I can see it as an incredible opportunity to dispel some of the more batshit insane views certain Christians hold who most likely never bothered to understand the bible and just believed in Jesus because their parents and pastors told them so. But I believe that it should be taught in addition to other world religions. Obviously you're not going to have the time or interest to devote classes to all religions like Taoism, Sikh, Wicca etc. but covering a general overview of religion as a mandatory class (that doesn't treat any religion as truth, or suggest that belief in any higher power or supernatural phenomenon is mandatory or desirable) along with electives for individual religions is a great idea, because like it or not religion is such an important thing in human history and affects everything from art, culture, legislation, even technology (invention of the moveable type for printing, architecture, navigational tools, weapons, etc.). Understanding why humans invented religion, why some people believe in them, what effect they have on both our history and our modern lives is integral to being a well-rounded individual who understands the world better.
I hope Bill knows what he's doing letting kentucky do this
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