[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48858550]So basically this video showed what looked like some young people throwing stones including some girls.
Then these other guys started kicking the fuck out of one of the alleged leaders including the soldiers and opening fire on what looked like unarmed people this could quite easily have ended in a fatality, in any other country/situation this would cause an outcry.[/QUOTE]
Like I said before, these groups have been [URL="http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israeli-motorist-lightly-hurt-after-Palestinian-stone-throwers-ambush-vehicle-in-West-Bank-421144"]stoning cars and trying to lynch the passengers[/URL] as well as attacking security positions and personnel.
I admit I'm not familiar with the nuances of law enforcement in the UK, but I imagine if a group of assholes were standing on the side of the road and throwing rocks into the windshields of passing cars and then at police officers when they arrived they'd be facing some serious charges, and if they resisted arrest I imagine some force would have been used.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;48858711]I see them shooting but not hitting anyone. They are shooting nonlethal bullets[/QUOTE]
The people they are shooting at are off camera, how do you know they are non-lethal?
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;48858761]Like I said before, these groups have been stoning cars and trying to lynch the passengers when the cars crash as well as attacking security positions and personnel.
I admit I'm not familiar with the nuances of law enforcement in the UK, but I imagine if a group of assholes were standing on the side of the road and throwing rocks into the windshields of passing cars and then at police officers when they arrived they'd be facing some serious charges, and if they resisted arrest I imagine some force would have been used.[/QUOTE]
They wouldn't have been infiltrated by a counter-terrorism unit, they'd be cordoned in by riot police then swept up without use of firearms. British riot police are pretty good at their job.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48858781]They wouldn't have been infiltrated by a counter-terrorism unit, they'd be cordoned in by riot police then swept up without use of firearms. British riot police are pretty good at their job.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/g20-summit/5166436/G20-protests-Further-claims-of-police-brutality.html"]they're awesome[/URL].
Now imagine they had to do that, only in Afghanistan.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48858768]The people they are shooting at are off camera, how do you know they are non-lethal?[/QUOTE]
The video was taken by an AFP photographer, and you can see more press cameramen behind the soldiers. If anyone had been killed there I'd imagine there would be reports of that.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;48858761]Like I said before, these groups have been stoning cars and trying to lynch the passengers when the cars crash as well as attacking security positions and personnel.
I admit I'm not familiar with the nuances of law enforcement in the UK, but I imagine if a group of assholes were standing on the side of the road and throwing rocks into the windshields of passing cars and then at police officers when they arrived they'd be facing some serious charges, and if they resisted arrest I imagine some force would have been used.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, but I can't help thinking that these situations are self-defeating. If I had a beef and turned up to throw stones and was fired upon and some of my group half beaten to death then I would probably get armed next time out.
These stone throwers are always alleged to be trying something else but never seem to achieve it.
Almost everytime I see conflict between Israeli's and Palestinian's it always seems to be a heavy handed one-sided affair that anywhere else in the world would cause 3rd parties to raise concern, this situation in the UK i.e Police/forces vs Muslims would of been handled very, very differently.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48858871]Agreed, but I can't help thinking that these situations are self-defeating. If I had a beef and turned up to throw stones and was fired upon and some of my group half beaten to death then I would probably get armed next time out.
These stone throwers are always alleged to be trying something else but never seem to achieve it.
Almost everytime I see conflict between Israeli's and Palestinian's it always seems to be a heavy handed one-sided affair that anywhere else in the world would cause 3rd parties to raise concern, this situation in the UK i.e Police/forces vs Muslims would of been handled very, very differently.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, the difference between this and domestic police situations is that this isn't domestic. This is the military operating inside rioting and extremely hostile population to try and stop them from hurting and killing Israelis.
So while inside Israel the police can handle even the most violent riot with conventional riot control methods, in the West Bank Israeli security forces are outnumbered by people that seek confrontation with them with the intent of (by their own declarations) killing them.
In this situation what mostly happens is that those groups ambush cars on a road or clash with security forces and then scatter and attack elsewhere.
Infiltrating a group and arresting the ringleaders (supposedly) breaks the group and makes future groups suspicious of their own members and others. Palestinians rioters have already started circulating instructions for avoiding infiltration that include staying in very small groups, for example.
But like I said when the undercover operatives blow their cover they're in the middle of a large group of very angry hostile people that came there to hurt Israelis. They have very little time to grab their target and get to safety before everyone starts attacking them, hence the pistols and brutality.
It's not pretty, but it's the reality of the situation. There are tons of Palestinians all over the place clashing with security forces, attacking Israeli cars and houses and running around stabbing people. You do whatever you think you have to to keep people from getting killed.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48858757][media]http://youtu.be/iVR5gAs5ak0[/media]
What.
0:15 they fucking slow it down.[/QUOTE]
Oh, that video was blocked at my school for some reason. Honestly, I don't know what's going on there but it's probably for a good reason.
The most moral army in the world, lmao.
Wat
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48857435]And nobody has mentioned the excessive use of force?[/QUOTE]
Returning rock throwing with gunfire? God's chosen people folks. Can't help but think that is a little excessive. Rock's can fuck you up, but returning fire? I hope they weren't live bullets.
I guess it is easier said since I'm not doing the extracting, but it seems like one group was in more danger than the other, and it wasn't the spec ops.
This is honestly not surprising at all. Israel is basically a hostile invasion force at this point.
[QUOTE=The fox;48851631]Spec ops, i'd image? As the same guy is performing a takedown in the picture after. Likewise the orange piece on his handgun.[/QUOTE]
How can the same guy be doing anything in another picture if he's only in that one?
[QUOTE=Funcoot;48869742]Returning rock throwing with gunfire? God's chosen people folks. Can't help but think that is a little excessive. Rock's can fuck you up, but returning fire? I hope they weren't live bullets.
I guess it is easier said since I'm not doing the extracting, but it seems like one group was in more danger than the other, and it wasn't the spec ops.[/QUOTE]
what is this, goddamn counter strike? if someone tries to kill/injure me I wouldn't think twice about shooting him-- even if it's 'unfair'. if the palestinians had anything more than a death wish, maybe they'd realize how utterly stupid it is to attack armed soldiers with... rocks.
[QUOTE=katbug;48870026]This is honestly not surprising at all. Israel is basically a hostile invasion force at this point.[/QUOTE]
how do people still come to these conclusions after all that's been happening recently
a mother and a father were literally shot and killed point blank in the face with their 4 children sitting in the back seats watching as the corpses of their parents lie there motionless, more and more attempted and successful stabbings that kill and injure people every single day these past few weeks.
i'm not even leaving the house without something on me for self protection, just in case, because these attacks aren't isolated incidents near the borders, they're happening in cities like petah tikva and tel aviv. ridiculous.
any other country, literally any other fucking 1st world county that had attempted political murder attempts on an [u]hourly[/u] fucking basis would immediately put entire cities on lock-down, helicopters, curfews, police in riot gear everywhere, national guard patrolling the malls, the whole shebang. imagine the lockdown after the boston bombings but imposed on the entire state of massachusetts.
this wouldn't be tolerated in any other place in the world, but because it's israel, people still think revenge stabbings as a way to express your political affiliation is okay.
[QUOTE=Funcoot;48869742]Returning rock throwing with gunfire? God's chosen people folks. Can't help but think that is a little excessive. Rock's can fuck you up, but returning fire? I hope they weren't live bullets.
I guess it is easier said since I'm not doing the extracting, but it seems like one group was in more danger than the other, and it wasn't the spec ops.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=katbug;48870026]This is honestly not surprising at all. Israel is basically a hostile invasion force at this point.[/QUOTE]
These punks deserve every inch of it.
They target civilian cars, crowded buses and soldiers in the name of "resistance" and yet complain why we throw bullets back.
And don't think the IDF are going to throw rocks back. That's just plain fucking stupid.
They give the general Arab-Israeli population a bad name. Just because of their attacks there will be more hate crime towards them and then the cycle will never end.
What's worse is that the foreign media reports that these rock throwers are basically having a "peaceful protest". News flash: Rocks kill and have already killed Israelis in the past.
And of course, there's you guys who have the power to judge.
The Palestinian Authority should stop encouraging young Palestinians to act as meat-shields in the name of resistance for Al-Aqsa. That way you won't see half-dead Palestinians being dragged away by Israeli soldiers on TV.
[QUOTE=katbug;48870026]This is honestly not surprising at all. Israel is basically a hostile invasion force at this point.[/QUOTE]
The Palestinians will soon become like what so many other defiant indigenous natives have become.
Annexed and or dead.
[QUOTE=Funcoot;48869742]Returning rock throwing with gunfire? God's chosen people folks. Can't help but think that is a little excessive. Rock's can fuck you up, but returning fire? I hope they weren't live bullets.
I guess it is easier said since I'm not doing the extracting, but it seems like one group was in more danger than the other, and it wasn't the spec ops.[/QUOTE]
Imagine you had a concealed handgun, a significant other, and several children with you at a park. You are just going about your business until a group of thugs starts throwing rocks at you, shocked, you grab your loved ones and start to run. Suddenly a rock hits your kid in the head knocking them unconscious, second rock hits your wife, she's still conscious but blood is gushing from her head. Running is now out of the question if you want to save your family from the horrendous random attack. Tell me, are you going to pick up a rock and throw it back at them? I wouldn't think you would, but I'm unsure because that might be a little excessive if you start shooting at them right? It wouldn't be fair to them, right? That's what you're saying isn't it? What are you going to do?
Always remember folks, it's easy to take the moral high ground when you 'think' you understand a situation and are not involved nor effected by it at all.
remember, israel can do now wrong
[QUOTE=Billy-Bobfred;48876650]remember, israel can do now wrong[/QUOTE]
what is this comment even supposed to mean?
like, unless you're trying to imply that palestinians attacking israeli civilians is somehow secretly israel's fault.... honestly kinda sounds like something Lamar would say at this point.
[QUOTE=RzDat;48872233]
The Palestinian Authority should stop encouraging young Palestinians to act as meat-shields in the name of resistance for Al-Aqsa. That way you won't see half-dead Palestinians being dragged away by Israeli soldiers on TV.[/QUOTE]
Does the Palestinian Authority really have any kind of authority over this at all? They've historically been so weak and incompetent at running things, it's hard to believe these riotous attacks are backed by their encouragement and coordination.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48876736]Does the Palestinian Authority really have any kind of authority over this at all? They've historically been so weak and incompetent at running things, it's hard to believe these riotous attacks are backed by their encouragement and coordination.[/QUOTE]
Hamas offers financial and social aid to the families of terrorists who martyrdom themselves. Because of this, as well as religious and societal pressure to become a martyr (who are honored as heroes in Palestinian society) in order to either help their family or die honorably/religiously. [URL="http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/teaching-terror-how-hamas-radicalizes-palestinian-society"](src)[/URL]
Hell, I'd read the source if I were you-- it's a huge eye-opener.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48876736]Does the Palestinian Authority really have any kind of authority over this at all? They've historically been so weak and incompetent at running things, it's hard to believe these riotous attacks are backed by their encouragement and coordination.[/QUOTE]
The Palestinian Authority is supporting the current wave of violence, which started mere days after Abbas' speech to the UN.
[URL="http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-leaders-salute-Palestinians-for-rising-to-defend-al-Aksa-Mosque-421189"]http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-leaders-salute-Palestinians-for-rising-to-defend-al-Aksa-Mosque-421189[/URL]
Note that they intentionally want to keep the "popular nature" of the violence so there's no official link to them.
Meanwhile the Fatah is [URL="http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=27481"]protesting the killing of Palestinians[/URL] (who were stabbing Israelis) by Israel, and [URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4709292,00.html"]releasing posters saluting the terrorists[/URL].
[IMG]http://images1.ynet.co.il/PicServer4/2015/10/10/6549992/big.jpg[/IMG]
[editline]11th October 2015[/editline]
And we have our first [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.679793"]suicide bombing[/URL] of the week.
[QUOTE]7:26•A.M. Explosion near Ma'aleh Adumim checkpoint:•A police officer was lightly wounded after an explosion took place at the A-Zaim checkpoint near Ma’aleh Adumim.•
Preliminary reports say a suspicious vehicle drew the attention of the officer, who signaled the driver, a Palestinian woman, to stop for inspection. The driver then yelled "allahu akbar" and initiated an explosive device. The driver suffered moderate wounds.[/QUOTE]
Also rockets.
[QUOTE]The Israel Air Force struck Gaza soon after the•Iron Dome missile defense system intercepted a rocket fired from the Strip•over southern Israel's Hof Ashkelon Regional Council.[/QUOTE]
This week is off to a promising start.
Apparently, some Israelis are putting pork on dead terrorist bodies.
[URL="http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/201692#.VhpuCflVhBe\"]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/201692#.VhpuCflVhBe[/URL]
We've moved from stabbings to shootings.
Fuck.
The morning so far:
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.680124"]http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.680124[/URL]
[QUOTE]10:56 A.M.•[B]Shooting incident[/B] reported near Damascus Gate in Jerusalem. (Nir Hasson)
10:42 A.M. Israeli woman was wounded after reportedly being stabbed by attacker in second incident in Ra'anana. The attacker fled, but was then arrested by the police.
10:32 A.M. Two attacks reported in Jerusalem leave at least 18 people wounded; with 9 said to be in serious condition. At least one person was said to be killed.
According to the police, in one attack, two terrorists reportedly entered a bus in Armon HaNatziv, with one [B]opening fire[/B] on travelers and the other using a knife. They were shot dead by a police officer who was at the scene.
10:20: A.M. Vehicular attack reported in Jerusalem's Malchi Yisrael St., with three Israeli wounded. The incident follows reports of a stabbing attack on a bus in the city.
10:10 A.M. A stabbing attack was reported inside a bus in Jerusalem's Olei Hagardom St in the Armon HaNatziv area, with casualties reported. According to initial reports, two terrorists entered a bus and began stabbing people, leaving at least 16 wounded, eight in serious condition. There are conflicting reports of at least one person being killed during the attack.
9:00 A.M. An Israeli was lightly wounded in a stabbing attack in the city of Ra’anana in central Israel. The attack took place on Ahuza Street, which is the city's main artery, and the terrorist sustained serious injuries after reportedly being subdued by civilians.[/QUOTE]
Sadly it was bound to happen sooner or later, especially with those committing these acts doing things like trying to kill soldiers for their guns.
[editline]13th October 2015[/editline]
I just hope it calms down before I plan to visit in December.
I'm wondering how people are attempting to justify this. I don't care what you think of the Israeli government or its decisions, you don't answer violence with violence, perceived or otherwise.
[QUOTE=FlandersNed;48892452]I'm wondering how people are attempting to justify this. I don't care what you think of the Israeli government or its decisions, you don't answer violence with violence, perceived or otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that exactly how the Israeli government is handling it too?
The situation is awful for both sides. Israel will keep occupying more and more land encouraging response from palestinians, and the reverse will happen with palestinians committing terror acts. Each cyle the bad elements will be blamed for the actions of the few.
I get that there's the "Israel's government condemns terrorism while Palestinian government encourages it", but that only "justifies" action against those in power. I normally see it as an excuse to exchange deadly fire with people throwing rocks. They're frustrated because they are losing land. Nothing diplomatic will work because before they even had any say in the matter, they were being oppressed by the Israeli government.
I guess Israel will win the long game here, there's only so much land they can take before no one can argue that it's their land. It's a sad state of affairs.
I really can't understand this sort of blame placed on Palestinians. African americans disproportionately commit more crimes but it's not because they are lesser humans, they grew up in an environment where the options mostly narrowed down to being a criminal. I don't get why it's somehow okay on the other hand to just be okay with anti islam sentiment.
[QUOTE=dark-vivec;48892518]Isn't that exactly how the Israeli government is handling it too?
The situation is awful for both sides. Israel will keep occupying more and more land encouraging response from palestinians, and the reverse will happen with palestinians committing terror acts. Each cyle the bad elements will be blamed for the actions of the few.
I get that there's the "Israel's government condemns terrorism while Palestinian government encourages it", but that only "justifies" action against those in power. I normally see it as an excuse to exchange deadly fire with people throwing rocks. They're frustrated because they are losing land. Nothing diplomatic will work because before they even had any say in the matter, they were being oppressed by the Israeli government.
I guess Israel will win the long game here, there's only so much land they can take before no one can argue that it's their land. It's a sad state of affairs.
I really can't understand this sort of blame placed on Palestinians. African americans disproportionately commit more crimes but it's not because they are lesser humans, they grew up in an environment where the options mostly narrowed down to being a criminal. I don't get why it's somehow okay on the other hand to just be okay with anti islam sentiment.[/QUOTE]
Bullshit. These riots and terror attacks aren't over occupation. They're over false rumors about Israel messing with the Temple Mount, and involve Israeli Arabs.
See [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1489331&p=48887458&viewfull=1#post48887458"]here[/URL].
The problem is that if Israel pulls out of the West Bank, there's a chance that the same thing that happened in Gaza would happen in the West Bank. That's way too dangerous for Israel.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;48892592]The problem is that if Israel pulls out of the West Bank, there's a chance that the same thing that happened in Gaza would happen in the West Bank. That's way too dangerous for Israel.[/QUOTE]
Chance? It will. Even if we pull out entirely, as soon as the first Palestinian terrorist attack hits Israel, you will find people justifying it, saying dumb shit like "oh well, the Palestinians still remember the injustice Israel applied, of course they'll continue doing this."
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