Starbucks Seeks to Keep Guns Out of Its Coffee Shops
205 replies, posted
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42235109]I'm seriously having a hard time trying to work out how you're fine with this[/QUOTE]
A person with a gun does not provide any form of direct threat to you or anyone else, merely a possible. I have no issue with firearms due to the latter part of the statement, which you conveniently ignored.
[QUOTE=The golden;42235113]I was under the impression that a firearm should be considered and treated as a dangerous item at all times. Basic firearm safety 101.[/QUOTE]
When carried by you or another person, or of unknown origin.
Until you prove it is safe do not interact with it, even if you are told it is safe and handed to you, you are to confirm yourself that it is.
Idk about you but if I saw a guy with a rifle on his back in a food court, I'm pretty sure I'd keep a very huge distance away and call the police
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42235172]Idk about you but if I saw a guy with a rifle on his back in a food court, I'm pretty sure I'd keep a very huge distance away and call the police[/QUOTE]
And then the police tell you to stop wasting their time, because they are not breaking any laws.
If he was holding the gun in a ready position that is different though.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42235067]Not everyone is a mass murderer but that doesn't mean I'll trust them, if you look at the figures, ever since John Howard put in laws such as the mandatory buy back scheme and some other shit you'll see homicide, gun violence and everything else across the board drop significantly and that happened within three months of it being passed or something it was a huge success
I'm just saying I don't think Civilians need guns unless you're a Police officer or in the Army, and I guess farmers should have one if they have threats of bats or other wildlife destroying their stock (which Australia does have) but you never see a farmer carry his shotgun in town[/QUOTE]
Your first paragraph is another inaccurate argument. Chicago, Illinois has some of the most strict gun laws in the United States. Chicago, Illinois also has the highest gun violence and gun murder rate in the Country. Gun laws do not stop murders from happening, because the very definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law. There are also many states reporting that the amount of violent crimes in their respective states has gone down as the amount of concealed carry permit holders has risen.
When the average police response time is greater than 25 minutes, it brings into perspective why people choose to carry a firearm. There are reports all over of instances where concealed permit holders have stopped criminals before people were hurt, or any crimes were committed. You would be surprised how thankful the other people involved in those incidents are towards the citizen with the gun.
[QUOTE=deadoon;42235150]A person with a gun does not provide any form of direct threat to you or anyone else, merely a possible. I have no issue with firearms due to the latter part of the statement, which you conveniently ignored.
[/QUOTE]
Its threatening just to carry a gun. Thats the idea behind why open carry is legal, to deter crime through intimidation. The issue is that all you end up doing is scaring people that pose no threat, ie 99% of the population.
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;42234751]wait, would people actually bring their guns inside a starbucks?[/QUOTE]
[t]http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/naTSklJmB2o/maxresdefault.jpg[/t]
Not mine, but yeah.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42235172]Idk about you but if I saw a guy with a rifle on his back in a food court, I'm pretty sure I'd keep a very huge distance away and call the police[/QUOTE]
I would too. There's nothing inherently wrong about it, per se, except that you have no idea if the person carrying the gun is mentally sound and won't shoot everyone in the room if you bump into him accidentally.
I'm of the type who doesn't care about guns themselves. I'm worried about idiots being lethal idiots.
[QUOTE=deadoon;42235187]And then the police tell you to stop wasting their time, because they are not breaking any laws.
If he was holding the gun in a ready position that is different though.[/QUOTE]
But, if you live in Australia and that was the case, the whole fucking SWAT team would be raining on your head and you'd be dragged away to prison for causing a major disturbance and having a firearm out in public
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235189]Its threatening just to carry a gun. Thats the idea behind why open carry is legal, to deter crime through intimidation. The thing is all you do is scare people that pose no threat, ie 99% of the population.[/QUOTE]
That's like saying black people should stay home because people are afraid of them. People have literally 0 reason to be afraid of a legal gun owner unless you are going to provoke it's use (i.e. commit a crime).
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235189]
Its threatening just to carry a gun. Thats the idea behind why open carry is legal, to deter crime through intimidation. The thing is all you do is scare people that pose no threat, ie 99% of the population.[/QUOTE]
How is it threatening? They are not holding it in their hands, it is either in a holster or slung over their shoulder.
The only reason it would be threatening to someone is if they fear guns for some reason, even if they have been given no reason to fear them.
[QUOTE=The golden;42235212]Right, which is what carried weapons are. Firearms carried by unknown people and of unknown origins. Not to mention many states of lax gun laws so there is little to no screening before getting permitted so there are even more unknowns.
Why exactly should I be trusting these people to carry firearms in public?[/QUOTE]
Carried in the sense that it is not in a stored position. If it is over their shoulder there is no direct threat, as it is pointed at the ground(likely unless they are a dumb ass with the sling and pointing in the air) and very close to them. Also their weapon is not of unknown origin, that weapon is theirs, thus they are the origin, unknown origin is for if you find a gun on the ground, you are not to pick it up.
Because they are openly making themselves a target or deterrent for anyone trying to shooting, everyone knows they have a weapon, thus they become attributed to what that weapon can do. If they were going to shoot the place up, why should make it public before they start shooting?
[QUOTE=The golden;42235212]Why exactly should I be trusting these people to carry firearms in public?[/QUOTE]
Because all the evidence and statistics says you should. Why not?
Always get a good chuckle when people who aren't from America seem to think that we just start blasting away at each other for the hell of it while we're on the way out to get the morning paper. I can understand being afraid of guns if you grew up somewhere where they're extremely restricted, but thinking just because we have lax gun laws that we just start shooting into crowds for the fun of it or whatever is a bit silly :v:
[QUOTE=sgman91;42235206]That's like saying black people should stay home because people are afraid of them. People have literally 0 reason to be afraid of a legal gun owner unless you are going to provoke it's use (i.e. commit a crime).[/QUOTE]
Guns are a tool designed solely to kill things, and therefore being scared of them is rational. Black people are just people abd being scared of them is xenophobic.
[QUOTE=The golden;42235054]I would rather an outside objective view on US gun culture than an internal one when many participants thinks guns are "baddass" and "cool".[/QUOTE]
Then how about another? I think it's absolutely disgusting that we don't have the right to carry something to protect ourselves with in Canada, not even pepper spray. I cannot fathom how someone could so easily give up their ability to defend themselves and why a politician would think it is acceptable to make it easier for a criminal to commit a crime by disarming their victim. There is data to show that none of the gun laws implemented here between 1973 and now have done anything, and there have been times I've felt uncomfortable and unsafe walking home at night because I knew if someone were to try something, I'd be totally helpless. Having no means to defend myself makes me feel unsafe and uncomfortable, and knowing that if I did defend myself, be it at home or somewhere else, that I'd be arrested for protecting myself, as many court cases have shown would happen, disgusts me.
[QUOTE=draugur;42235111]The usage of firearms in a self-defense situation is only viable for concealed carry because of the element of surprise escalation. Open carry removes that ability and only serves to give the criminal the intel he needs to commit the crime better. Instead of being attacked by one guy with a knife, an open carry person will be attacked by three guys with guns, because the criminals were given the first chance to escalate the conflict and the open-carry individual has no tricks up his sleeve to persuade them from attacking him. A concealed carry gives a seemingly exploitable person the ability to instantly escalate the conflict in their favour, a criminal is more likely to attack what they believe is an unarmed person with a knife than a visibly armed one.
I'd gladly let them bad open carry as long as concealed carry was still 100% legal.[/QUOTE]
For the most part, I agree, which is why I CC 99% of the time. However, many criminals are deterred by the slightest of things. It's more likely than not that seeing the firearm would prevent the crime altogether. Of course, both of our instances are pure speculation. In the end, personal preference is what will prevail.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235230]Guns are a tool designed solely to kill things and being scared of them is rational. Black people are just people abd being scared of them is xenophobic.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty naive to say that because a gun is intended to kill people you should personally be afraid of ALL of them no matter what. Are you more afraid to live in a country with ballistic missiles, which are meant to kill people, than living in a country without them?
I'm sorry if I am saying every gun owner is a trigger happy psychopath, I just think guns should be kept home, sealed up for self defence and not ever ever ever brought in public.
Open Carry creates this illusion around me as I've previously stated of everyone being afraid of each other, everyone has in their mind "massacre" so they bring guns to make sure that doesn't happen, and you got to keep looking over your shoulder because you're that scared about it, it brings a lot of fear
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42235262]I'm sorry if I am saying every gun owner is a trigger happy psychopath, I just think guns should be kept home, sealed up for self defence and not ever ever ever brought in public.
Open Carry creates this illusion around me as I've previously stated of everyone being afraid of each other, everyone has in their mind "massacre" so they bring guns to make sure that doesn't happen, and you got to keep looking over your shoulder because you're that scared about it, it brings a lot of fear[/QUOTE]
People being afraid is irrelevant if the reason for fear isn't logical. Evidence shows that having a gun makes you less likely to be physically hurt when being a victim of a crime, as shown by the CDC study that I cited earlier.
[QUOTE=The golden;42235272]What?
Missiles are not being brought into my local starbucks. How is that even comparable.[/QUOTE]
Missiles can just as easily be used to kill you as any gun. The only reason you don't fear them is because you generally trust the people in charge of them. The same reasoning should be used for guns.
[QUOTE=deadoon;42235217]How is it threatening? They are not holding it in their hands, it is either in a holster or slung over their shoulder.
The only reason it would be threatening to someone is if they fear guns for some reason, even if they have been given no reason to fear them.[/QUOTE]
They're threatening just by existing just like nuclear weapons are threatening through game theory. It's not whether you intend to use them, the possibility of use makes them scary enough. I can't know whether that biker intends to shoot up the coffee shop, so the natural reaction is fear.
[QUOTE=The golden;42235246]I don't think there is anybody here which has said they think this.[/QUOTE]
V
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42234993][b]I like walking around town without worrying I'll be transported to hospital because I got shot by some fuckwit who thought it'd be cool to blast a city with led[/b][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235285]They're threatening just by existing just like nuclear weapons are threatening through game theory. It's not whether you intend to use them, the possibility of use makes them scary enough. I can't know whether that biker intends to shoot up the coffee shop, so the natural reaction is fear.[/QUOTE]
You also can't know if a car will run you over, but it's statistically unlikely. So you don't walk around in constant fear. The same can be said about legally owned firearms.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42235255]It's pretty naive to say that because a gun is intended to kill people you should personally be afraid of ALL of them no matter what. Are you more afraid to live in a country with ballistic missiles, which are meant to kill people, than living in a country without them?[/QUOTE]
I'd be afraid to live in a country without. I don't see what you're getting at.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42235262]I'm sorry if I am saying every gun owner is a trigger happy psychopath, I just think guns should be kept home, sealed up for self defence and not ever ever ever brought in public.
Open Carry creates this illusion around me as I've previously stated of everyone being afraid of each other, everyone has in their mind "massacre" so they bring guns to make sure that doesn't happen, and you got to keep looking over your shoulder because you're that scared about it, it brings a lot of fear[/QUOTE]
No one here has to constantly look over their shoulder because they think a massacre is going to happen. Honestly, not many people here even open carry, so walking through a crowd here would be more or less the same as it would be in Australia, it's not like we're all lugging around M16s on our backs :v: Most people who carry in public are doing it either just because they can, or as a safety thing. And most Americans are comfortable with the idea of people walking around with concealed weapons, considering we probably walk by a dozen of them a day every day and nothing bad comes from it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42235305]You also can't know if a car will run you over, but it's statistically unlikely. So you don't walk around in constant fear. The same can be said about legally owned firearms.[/QUOTE]
Car isn't intended to kill people, Infact they're designed not to. Guns are the opposite - The only reason to have a gun and open carry is the intent to kill.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235317]Car isn't intended to kill people, Infact they're designed not to. Guns are the opposite - The only reason to have a gun is the intent to kill.[/QUOTE]
Target shooting?
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235285]They're threatening just by existing just like nuclear weapons are threatening through game theory. It's not whether you intend to use them, the possibility of use makes them scary enough. I can't know whether that biker intends to shoot up the coffee shop, so the natural reaction is fear.[/QUOTE]
Same idea, you present yourself as having the ability to defend yourself, thus people will not try to mess with you too much. I think you don't understand that it is pretty much a form of making your capacity public to deter any problems before they start.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235317]Car isn't intended to kill people. Infact they're designed not to. Guns are the opposite. The only reason to have a gun is to kill.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on, a car can and has been used as a murder weapon time and time again. If someone driving wants to kill you as you walk on the sidewalk, they easily can. The intention of the device is irrelevant. It's use is what matters.
[QUOTE=deadoon;42235326]Target shooting?[/QUOTE]
I meant in terms of open carry, but I guess that's true.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235317]Car isn't intended to kill people, Infact they're designed not to. Guns are the opposite - The only reason to have a gun is the intent to kill.[/QUOTE]
Target shooting, shooting clays, collecting, etc.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42235336]I meant in terms of open carry, but I guess that's true.[/QUOTE]
The thought isn't usually that you plan to kill someone when you carry, it's usually that you plan not to get killed, and the gun helps you not get killed if someone puts you in a situation where you can die.
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