• DAO likely to become largest crowdfunded project in history ($100m USD+)
    82 replies, posted
[QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50325074]A lot of flack comes from people who think the value has decreased or is unstable. It is unstable when compared to traditional currencies, but in terms of the people who look at it as a very long-term thing then there is a very limited supply. 1 bitcoin today is 1 bitcoin in 1, 10 or 100 years time (provided no fault happens with the technology).[/QUOTE] 1 bitcoin today may be 1 bitcoin in 1, 10, or 100 years time, but it surely will not be worth US$460 in 1, 10, or 100 years time, nor will it be worth that after accounting for inflation. Exchange rates matter when holding currency. If you had 1 Zimbabwe dollar, sure, it'd be worth 1 Zimbabwe dollar forever, but is that really what you want to hold in perpetuity? Again, another fundamental misunderstanding of finance and economics from the guy who doesn't understand finance and economics (much less law). I'd bet you all of my bitcoins that the value is going to tank in the next recession as people demand liquidity.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;50325638]1 bitcoin today may be 1 bitcoin in 1, 10, or 100 years time, but it surely will not be worth US$460 in 1, 10, or 100 years time, nor will it be worth that after accounting for inflation. Exchange rates matter when holding currency. If you had 1 Zimbabwe dollar, sure, it'd be worth 1 Zimbabwe dollar forever, but is that really what you want to hold in perpetuity? Again, another fundamental misunderstanding of finance and economics from the guy who doesn't understand finance and economics (much less law). I'd bet you all of my bitcoins that the value is going to tank in the next recession as people demand liquidity.[/QUOTE] Cool. You do what you do and keep defending what you believe in. I'll keep on doing the same. Obvious we're not going to agree on it or think that each other understands what the other is talking about. EDIT: Wait a second--you're talking smack on bitcoin but you make your living through selling SecondLife internet money? I don't know what I was expecting in trying to engage in a semi serious conversation with someone who has a furry avatar. [img]http://snowmew.me/i/160514135223.png[/img] source: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1516307&p=50320165&viewfull=1#post50320165[/url] You gotta admit that's pretty ironic. I think its even the actual definition or irony. Seriously. Lindens. SecondLife money. And saying that cryptographically secure currency that has been running for like 8 years non-stop is dumb? [img]http://i.imgur.com/kL45Dnr.png[/img]
I wouldn't be surprised if the site and all the money evaporates at some point.
[QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50325822]EDIT: Wait a second--you're talking smack on bitcoin but you make your living through selling SecondLife internet money? I don't know what I was expecting in trying to engage in a semi serious conversation with someone who has a furry avatar. :snip: source: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1516307&p=50320165&viewfull=1#post50320165[/url] You gotta admit that's pretty ironic. I think its even the actual definition or irony. Seriously. Lindens. SecondLife money. And saying that cryptographically secure currency that has been running for like 8 years non-stop is dumb? :snip:[/QUOTE] I say if anything, this adds credibility to him because it shows he knows how markets work
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;50326690]I say if anything, this adds credibility to him because it shows he knows how markets work[/QUOTE] Its funny that the most constant criticism of this idea seems to be that will someone will cut and run with all the money. Even though its arguably not possible (depending on the stability/security of the source code) [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Second_Life[/url] [quote]while Linden Lab maintains a currency peg of about L$270=US$1, it is only partially backed by Linden Lab's revenue in US Dollar, as there is a perpetual deficit between Linden Dollar creation (from stipends, see below) and USD revenue received by Linden Labs. The difference is made up by Linden Labs creating Linden Dollars out of nothing (just as governments turn to the printing press to create money). This might lead to a recession if Linden Labs is forced to tighten its monetary policy, or an outright economic collapse if people lose confidence in the peg's sustainability[/quote] [quote]Recent Linden Acts of greater economic import include the banning of wagering on games of random chance or on real-life sporting events with L$. As soon as the rule change was announced, casinos were given a few days to close[citation needed]. Casino owners and game makers either found other avenues of business or ceased trading. The fallout of this was the largest bank in SL, Ginko Financial, which had its ATMs in most major casinos, saw its reserves drained completely within hours, and was never able to catch up with withdrawal requests, which eventually amounted to L$55 million out of deposits of L$180 million. Ginko's assets were primarily invested in things of either poor to no liquidity, or virtual securities that were then trading at significantly under their purchase price. Ginko was forced into insolvency and converted their depositors into bond holders on the World Stock Exchange (one of several in-world stock exchanges).[/quote] I always personally found it completely stupid that SecondLife prohibited gambling. EDIT: I also have to say I'm quite impressed with the level of money that they've made via SecondLife.
[QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50323618]As soon as you mentioned P2P it became obvious that you didn't read anything at all; it is not distributed file storage. It is a blockchain system that manages contracts between clients. Anyway, to each their own, if you think its dumb I'm happy for u.[/QUOTE] Except it is peer to peer. It says it on the first sentence of their whitepaper: [quote]The authors introduce Sia, a platform for decentralized storage. Sia enables the formation of storage contracts between peers.[/quote] The Siacoin/contract is in the blockchain, but the actual storage aspect is p2p. Zephyrs is 100% correct, there is absolutely no way this will even get to 0.1% of Amazon's current capacity much less kill it. The infrastructure required to deal with petabytes of information just can't be replicated outside of an enterprise datacenter environment. And even if Sia is cheaper, the companies picking Amazon aren't picking it for the price. They're picking Amazon for reputation, reliability, scalability and support.
[QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50325822]EDIT: Wait a second--you're talking smack on bitcoin but you make your living through selling SecondLife internet money? I don't know what I was expecting in trying to engage in a semi serious conversation with someone who has a furry avatar.[/QUOTE] This only proves that he's a resourceful guy, since he managed to find his way into a novel market niche, one that requires you to have skills in coding, 3d modelling [B]and[/B] running a business, and he's now reaping the rewards of his success by making a living out of it.
[QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50323618]As soon as you mentioned P2P it became obvious that you didn't read anything at all; it is not distributed file storage. It is a blockchain system that manages contracts between clients. Anyway, to each their own, if you think its dumb I'm happy for u.[/QUOTE] LMAO what? [b]Your[/b] example is p2p. It's outright described as p2p. I went through and methodically demolished your point. A point that had nothing to do with DAO.[quote]The promise of Sia is a decentralized network of...[/quote]That is literally the [b]definition[/b] of p2p. You still have not shown how your contracts are in any way meaningfully different than already existing contracts. All you do is keep insinuating that people aren't reading your stuff, despite the fact that you have been continuously refuted with well thought out, sound, logical arguments at every single turn. At this point I'm writing you off as either a Dunning-Kruger personified ignorant libretarian, or an outright troll. You have repeatedly demonstrated a complete inability to reason, and a near total lack of comprehension of basic economic principles.
[QUOTE=deadeye536;50327288]Except it is peer to peer. It says it on the first sentence of their whitepaper: The Siacoin/contract is in the blockchain, but the actual storage aspect is p2p. Zephyrs is 100% correct, there is absolutely no way this will even get to 0.1% of Amazon's current capacity much less kill it. The infrastructure required to deal with petabytes of information just can't be replicated outside of an enterprise datacenter environment. And even if Sia is cheaper, the companies picking Amazon aren't picking it for the price. They're picking Amazon for reputation, reliability, scalability and support.[/QUOTE] Decentralized + peers =/= peer to peer. Read further. [editline]16th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zephyrs;50327359]LMAO what? [b]Your[/b] example is p2p. It's outright described as p2p. I went through and methodically demolished your point. A point that had nothing to do with DAO.That is literally the [b]definition[/b] of p2p. You still have not shown how your contracts are in any way meaningfully different than already existing contracts. All you do is keep insinuating that people aren't reading your stuff, despite the fact that you have been continuously refuted with well thought out, sound, logical arguments at every single turn. At this point I'm writing you off as either a Dunning-Kruger personified ignorant libretarian, or an outright troll. You have repeatedly demonstrated a complete inability to reason, and a near total lack of comprehension of basic economic principles.[/QUOTE] Yes a decentralized network is P2P in essence. That doesn't mean that storage is actually hosted via P2P methods. Read more. [quote]Sia leverages the capacity of blockchain technology to enable distributed networks to reach consensus in a secure and trustless way. Cryptographically secured smart contracts ensure the encryption and transfer of data with no possibility for a third party to interfere in any way. Sia is a new approach to cloud storage platforms. Instead of all datacenters being owned and operated by a single company, Sia opens the floodgates and allows anyone to make money by renting out their hard drive. Data integrity is protected using redundancy and cryptography. The promise of Sia is a decentralized network of datacenters that, taken together, comprise the world's fastest, cheapest, and most secure cloud storage platform. Today, being a major cloud storage player requires having datacenters, building trust within the market, reaching customers, and competing with giants such as Amazon, Google, and Microsoft.[/quote] Simply put the decentralized part of the network matches you up with data centres etc that are judged by reliability/speed and your data is kept redundant via multiple uploads. This doesn't mean the recieving end of this part is done via P2P technology.
okay, and who has the capital to spin up a data center for this service, not knowing if it'll be worth it?
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;50328924]okay, and who has the capital to spin up a data center for this service, not knowing if it'll be worth it?[/QUOTE] [del]Amazon[/del] Wait no. Can't have that. [del]Microso[/del] Oh man they are even worse. [del]Google[/del] Botnet fascist pigs. Guess we have to trust joe blow since no big company can be. :downs:
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50329024][del]Amazon[/del] Wait no. Can't have that. [del]Microso[/del] Oh man they are even worse. [del]Google[/del] Botnet fascist pigs. Guess we have to trust joe blow since no big company can be. :downs:[/QUOTE] [quote]Normally the data is owned by one company. It's usually encrypted and not authenticated. You just give them the raw data, and they hold on to it. It's usually unencrypted. It's often sitting inside of one legal jurisdiction in one geographic location. Amazon is a profit-making company, well maybe not, but Microsoft is, and sometimes the profit motives might not align with your personal requirements. In general, the cloud storage space has very inflated prices. It's inflated if you look at what storage really costs. The numbers are really big to get storage from Amazon. We want to decentralize that.[/quote] It's probably worth a read: [url]http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2016/siacoin/[/url]
[QUOTE=IrishBandit;50325946]I wouldn't be surprised if the site and all the money evaporates at some point.[/QUOTE] that's not how it works, the entire damn point is that there is no centralized site that can vanish as such - there is only the code, which is open source, that everyone is running the entire point here is that this can't happen
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_funded_crowdfunding_projects[/url] So it has hit roughly $120 million USD making it the largest ever crowdfunding project. On top of that there has been news coverage from some pretty MSM outlets recently: [url]http://www.wsj.com/articles/chiefless-company-rakes-in-more-than-100-million-1463399393[/url] [url]http://fortune.com/2016/05/15/leaderless-blockchain-vc-fund/[/url] [url]http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ethereum-reinvents-companies-launch-dao-1557576[/url] [url]http://techcrunch.com/2016/05/16/the-tao-of-the-dao-or-how-the-autonomous-corporation-is-already-here/[/url] [url]http://theconversation.com/the-dao-a-radical-experiment-that-could-be-the-future-of-decentralised-governance-59082[/url] With the amount of press coverage and the amount of time left it seems possible that the number will rise further.
so this is a sketchy investment company? why not just invest in an actual investment company? pls explain like I am 3 years old because I don't understand at all.
[QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50325822]Cool. You do what you do and keep defending what you believe in. I'll keep on doing the same. Obvious we're not going to agree on it or think that each other understands what the other is talking about.[/QUOTE] I'm saying that currency trading is more complicated than you make it out to be. Bitcoin, like all cryptocurrencies loosely correlated to it, is extremely unstable and until recently had severe problems with liquidity. But clearly you don't understand what a limit order book is. If DAO cashed out all of the ETH they hold into USD, it'd crash the market and would be worth nowhere near US$100mm. So to say that it got US$100mm compared to other projects which actually deal directly in US$ is misleading. [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50325822]EDIT: Wait a second--you're talking smack on bitcoin but you make your living through selling SecondLife internet money?[/QUOTE] I like how you went through my post history just to dig up some dirt on me and try to pitch an ad hominem argument, and it just backfired in your face. [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50325822]I don't know what I was expecting in trying to engage in a semi serious conversation with someone who has a furry avatar.[/QUOTE] :neat: [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50325822][img]http://snowmew.me/i/160514135223.png[/img] source: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1516307&p=50320165&viewfull=1#post50320165[/url] You gotta admit that's pretty ironic. I think its even the actual definition or irony. Seriously. Lindens. SecondLife money. And saying that cryptographically secure currency that has been running for like 8 years non-stop is dumb? [img]http://i.imgur.com/kL45Dnr.png[/img][/QUOTE] Investing in ETH and the DAO is a lot different from just literally printing money in Second Life. It takes up basically an hour a week at most of my time. I haven't put a single penny into it. Apples to oranges, and all that. The whole point of the DAO is to take money and invest into projects, correct? How do you use the DAO and just make money for free? The "irony" here is that the L$-US$ exchange rate has been extremely stable since 2006. Let's check out ETH, which (despite your whole "8 years" thing) hasn't been around for even a year: [IMG]http://snowmew.me/i/160517013737.png[/IMG] That looks like a stock chart to me, not a currency chart. But I guess I wouldn't know anything about economics or finance, despite doing it for 10 years and getting a masters in it, because I have a furry avatar. The funny thing is I wrote one of my term papers on Bitcoin and its feasibility in starting a business plan I had to avoid regulations on holding payments in escrow for marketplace buyers and sellers. Didn't do it, but it's (in a way) a similar concept.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;50335923][...] I haven't put a single penny into it. [...][/QUOTE] To be entirely fair, you did put time into it at some point though. I assume it also took some time to get the necessary expertise, but that's probably a matter of other projects too. In the end it's a fairly normal self-employment job, except that it generates a good amount of passive income. I guess that's the point of your argument though. It looks like The DAO is going to lose out on quite a bit of money when they invest in something due to the currency fluctuations, since any sensible proposal should add that margin to the cost statement and, if their volume makes up a noticeable fraction of the ETH exchange market, their offline contractor dealings will directly affect the exchange rate. (I'm not aware of any place where you could finance living for a stable amount of ETH, but I could be mistaken. Anything else definitely will require that added security for the contractor, or have a high risk of failing outright.)
[QUOTE=Snowmew;50335923]I'm saying that currency trading is more complicated than you make it out to be. Bitcoin, like all cryptocurrencies loosely correlated to it, is extremely unstable and until recently had severe problems with liquidity. But clearly you don't understand what a limit order book is. If DAO cashed out all of the ETH they hold into USD, it'd crash the market and would be worth nowhere near US$100mm. So to say that it got US$100mm compared to other projects which actually deal directly in US$ is misleading. I like how you went through my post history just to dig up some dirt on me and try to pitch an ad hominem argument, and it just backfired in your face. :neat: Investing in ETH and the DAO is a lot different from just literally printing money in Second Life. It takes up basically an hour a week at most of my time. I haven't put a single penny into it. Apples to oranges, and all that. The whole point of the DAO is to take money and invest into projects, correct? How do you use the DAO and just make money for free? The "irony" here is that the L$-US$ exchange rate has been extremely stable since 2006. Let's check out ETH, which (despite your whole "8 years" thing) hasn't been around for even a year: [IMG]http://snowmew.me/i/160517013737.png[/IMG] That looks like a stock chart to me, not a currency chart. But I guess I wouldn't know anything about economics or finance, despite doing it for 10 years and getting a masters in it, because I have a furry avatar. The funny thing is I wrote one of my term papers on Bitcoin and its feasibility in starting a business plan I had to avoid regulations on holding payments in escrow for marketplace buyers and sellers. Didn't do it, but it's (in a way) a similar concept.[/QUOTE] I never said its making money "for free". I've made money for free in crypto. I participated in an airdrop sometime back and made $1000 USD no strings attached for filling in two text boxes and clicking submit--as in I actually cashed out at some point and received $1000 USD. I didn't look through your post history, I just browse LMAO pics regularly. Its not really ad hominem when you use/rely on Lindens that are pretty much solely backed, produced and maintained by a single private company which can print as much as they want to or shut down tomorrow or go offline for the next 3 weeks. If you or anyone else buys/sells Lindens using their personal details then there is some possibility that they could be exposed in a data breach. I suppose the furry avatar part is irrelevant I just found it funny because of how much I've played Second Life and seen furries in the game. As someone else pointed out you didn't make SL money for 'free'--you dedicated time towards it. You may only spend a few hours here and there now, but somewhere along the way you most likely spent a reasonable amount of time on it. I didn't claim you 'invested' in Lindens, merely pointed out that you seem to rely on then somewhat. Give how much more likely a failure of Lindens is compared to Bitcoin or even Ethereum (for instance if someone hacks into LindenLabs then they can basically screw over the entire economy in a short span of time). Lindens don't have the NASDAQ, banks or technology companies investing hundreds of millions of dollars into research and development either. It isn't misleading to say that DAO got $100m+ in investment, because otherwise people could've just cashed out. For instance if I had just cashed out my ETH I would've made about a 400% gain. When it comes to that wacky Siacoin I mentioned earlier that everyone said is a stupid idea. I've already made a 850% profit. Obviously it's disruptive technology, its highly risky and its just as easy to lose money as it is to gain money. So call it wacky, unstable, dumb, that it doesn't make sense economically or whatever else, but lets see where things are in 12-24 months. I could easily be sitting here again by then with $0. Its a risk.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;50336975]It looks like The DAO is going to lose out on quite a bit of money when they invest in something due to the currency fluctuations, since any sensible proposal should add that margin to the cost statement and, if their volume makes up a noticeable fraction of the ETH exchange market, their offline contractor dealings will directly affect the exchange rate. (I'm not aware on any place where you could finance living for a stable amount of ETH, but I could be mistaken. Anything else definitely will require that added security for the contractor, or have a high risk of failing outright.)[/QUOTE] Currency rate risk is an interesting beast. Most of international finance is learning how to hedge against that risk but you can't do that with ETH because, to my knowledge, there is essentially no futures/options market for ETH. I think there might be some semblance of that for Bitcoin, but ETH is too small and new. [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50337120]Its not really ad hominem when you use/rely on Lindens that are pretty much solely backed, produced and maintained by a single private company which can print as much as they want to or shut down tomorrow or go offline for the next 3 weeks. If you or anyone else buys/sells Lindens using their personal details then there is some possibility that they could be exposed in a data breach.[/QUOTE] It's funny because I know how garbage of a company Linden Lab is, and it's far worse than you even imagine, yet they're still around. But the same could be said of any job, so I'm not sure what your point is. The ~90% of people right now in the labor pool who actually have okay jobs take the same risk in that they could be fired or told not to come into work for a few weeks. Their employer could also be the victim of a data breach too. So? [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50337120]As someone else pointed out you didn't make SL money for 'free'--you dedicated time towards it. You may only spend a few hours here and there now, but somewhere along the way you most likely spent a reasonable amount of time on it. I didn't claim you 'invested' in Lindens, merely pointed out that you seem to rely on then somewhat. Give how much more likely a failure of Lindens is compared to Bitcoin or even Ethereum (for instance if someone hacks into LindenLabs then they can basically screw over the entire economy in a short span of time).[/QUOTE] Most of what I do is contracted out. The hour a week figure is basically my entire development time (with the exception of one project I can think of off the top of my head which was just a personal hobby that never got sold). I used to actually "play" it when I was 14-16 so you could consider that time spent learning the platform, but I wasn't playing it with the intention of actually starting a business, it was just for fun (as much fun as could be had in SL). [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50337120]Lindens don't have the NASDAQ, banks or technology companies investing hundreds of millions of dollars into research and development either.[/QUOTE] So? What's your point? $100mm is chump change to these guys. [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50337120]It isn't misleading to say that DAO got $100m+ in investment, because otherwise people could've just cashed out. For instance if I had just cashed out my ETH I would've made about a 400% gain.[/QUOTE] You totally ignored my argument and don't understand my point. I'll say it again - if they exchanged all of the ETH (worth, as you say, over US$100mm) they would either wipe out the buy orders (thereby crashing the market and making their ETH worth far less) or they would sit on an ask that wouldn't be cleared for many years (signalling would also kick in, pushing the value of ETH down so the order might never clear). So while the ETH they have is worth US$100mm at the [i]inside ask[/i] when you ignore the depth, to say they actually earned US$100mm is impractical at best, and fraudulent at worst. Why does the DAO get to make this false claim when any investment firm or exchange has to actually factor in the limit order book? That's not to mention the huge exchange rate risk inherent in any new cryptocurrency. Lest we forget that ETH was worth a tenth of what it's worth today at the start of the year. There's no guarantee it won't dip back down. [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50337120]When it comes to that wacky Siacoin I mentioned earlier that everyone said is a stupid idea. I've already made a 850% profit.[/QUOTE] Once again proving that you're a financial genius. Why didn't you invest your life savings into it and retire? Could it be because you're ignoring the majority of cryptocurrencies which turn out to be failures? [QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;50337120]Obviously it's disruptive technology, its highly risky and its just as easy to lose money as it is to gain money. So call it wacky, unstable, dumb, that it doesn't make sense economically or whatever else, but lets see where things are in 12-24 months. I could easily be sitting here again by then with $0. Its a risk.[/QUOTE] At least you understand that part.
There is even more press (a decent amount negative or neutral) regarding the DAO: [url]https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601480/the-autonomous-corporation-called-the-dao-is-not-a-good-way-to-spend-130-million/[/url] [quote]Like so many ideas buzzing around the cryptocurrency world, DAO probably won’t live up to its own hype. Indeed, the DAO’s success at attracting funds can be seen as an indicator of a bigger problem facing cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin and Ethereum have built up large market caps, of $7 billion and $976 million respectively, on the back of hopes they will become broadly useful. Until that comes about, though, there’s not much to invest Bitcoins or Ethereum into without converting them into conventional currency, says Tim Swanson of R3CEV, a startup that works with banks on Bitcoin-inspired technology.[/quote] [url]http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/05/17/2162084/more-decentralised-autonomous-organisation-dao-mysticism/[/url]
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