Another stolen generation: how Australia still wrecks Aboriginal families
64 replies, posted
[QUOTE=reevezy67;44316035]I feel like the news article is a bit biased.
The amount of benefits and support provided from the government toward Aboriginals is so large you wouldn't believe it.[/QUOTE]
We get people making arguments like this in Canada as well. Looking at our two social situations I can see startling similarities so I'll just say what I say to a Canadian who makes that point:
If there was a button in front of you that would turn you Aboriginal, would you press it? You'd become immediately eligible for all this "support" you talk about, but you'd also face all the problems that Aboriginal people would face. Otherwise, everything else about you would stay the same.
Most people say no because despite all this support they talk about, the life of the average Aboriginal person is significantly worse than the life of the average non-Aboriginal person and they [i]know it[/i]. That alone kind of makes you wonder what exactly this "support" is.
Things don't count as support if people aren't actually being supported.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;44316076]I don't think the article is focusing on the policy itself, but rather the fact that many indigenous people still live in a situation where one third of children that are taken away come from a demographic that is only 3% of the population.[/QUOTE]
Which is unfortunate, but the Australian Government is doing a lot to help this demographic - and yet people are taking offence to it somehow
[QUOTE=Animosus;44315832]There is still a huge amount of discrimination against the Aboriginals. I hear it all the time in WA, whenever a robbery/beating up/school fight etc happens most people jump to "I bet they were aboriginal".
They are almost always followed around in shops by the security as well. Could be a well kept mum with her kids, they will still follow her around.[/QUOTE]
The discrimination is not baseless, however. You'd be completely ignorant to think this sort of discrimination happens just because of their colour and a misconceived stereotype. A lot of aborigines are prone to substance abuse and don't have much money, and a lot have been brought up in lifestyles where this behavior is seen as normal, it's a terrible cycle. When I was living in Cairns, aborigines were a huge problem with stealing/violence, I worked in a chemist retailer there, and at least once a day you'd get someone who looks aboriginal attempting to or stealing some stock. I kinda felt sorry for them when it happened. But on the other hand, they're given more money from social services for nothing than I get by working and blow it on cigarettes/alcohol abuse.
It's quite a vicious cycle, if anything on the most part, taking children away from their parents gets them away from this lifestyle, but there is a lot still wrong with the current system.
And to be honest, the generous handouts by the Australian government exclusive to aborigines fuels more discrimination, because there is no incentive for them to get a job if they're earning more from welfare than they would from an unskilled job.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;44316110]We get people making arguments like this in Canada as well. Looking at our two social situations I can see startling similarities so I'll just say what I say to a Canadian who makes that point:
If there was a button in front of you that would turn you Aboriginal, would you press it? You'd become immediately eligible for all this "support" you talk about, but you'd also face all the problems that Aboriginal people would face. Otherwise, everything else about you would stay the same.
Most people say no because despite all this support they talk about, the life of the average Aboriginal person is significantly worse than the life of the average non-Aboriginal person and they [I]know it[/I]. That alone kind of makes you wonder what exactly this "support" is.
Things don't count as support if people aren't actually being supported.[/QUOTE]
You are right, I would still say no but not because of discrimination, my area is pretty good in that regard.
I just don't like the idea of sudden change like that. I'd need to know exactly what would change about me.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44314049]sounds a bit harsh
time to get digging
The Aboriginal population is growing, which seems to counter this claim:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians#Demographics[/url]
Intermarriage rates are high as well, so it doesn't seem like the Australian government is getting rid of Aboriginals.
What a shit attempt to shoehorn in godwins law. The aboriginal population is at least half a million and growing.[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point of what assimilation tries to do Sobotnik. Its the slow erosion of their cultural and social identity and not necessarily the literal breeding out of aboriginality. Increases in the population doesn't make up for the fact that customs and languages of various nations are knocking on death's door.
[editline]22nd March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tasm;44316206]
And to be honest, the generous handouts by the Australian government exclusive to aborigines fuels more discrimination, because there is no incentive for them to get a job if they're earning more from welfare than they would from an unskilled job.[/QUOTE]
Is there any evidence for this?
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;44316487]You're missing the point of what assimilation tries to do Sobotnik. Its the slow erosion of their cultural and social identity and not necessarily the literal breeding out of aboriginality. Increases in the population doesn't make up for the fact that customs and languages of various nations are knocking on death's door.[/quote]
So in the past 20 years, has there been a significant decline in Aboriginal culture?
I would assume with growing numbers of those who identify as aboriginal, they would also have an interest in Aboriginal culture as well?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44316649]So in the past 20 years, has there been a significant decline in Aboriginal culture?
I would assume with growing numbers of those who identify as aboriginal, they would also have an interest in Aboriginal culture as well?[/QUOTE]
There definitely has been attempts, yet it doesn't save the fact that many indigenous languages (and the customs that go with them) are in severe decline. Only something like 10% of indigenous kids are learning indigenous languages, and usually its only in highly rural areas. And even then most of the languages are highly endangered.
They still do have a strong identity within Australia, but it just doesn't look good in the long term. I wouldn't say in the last 20 years there has been a significant decline, but the new generations certainly aren't flocking to learn indigenous languages. Perhaps there may be a push to reinforce their identities but I wouldn't hold my breath.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;44316960]There definitely has been attempts, yet it doesn't save the fact that many indigenous languages (and the customs that go with them) are in severe decline. Only something like 10% of indigenous kids are learning indigenous languages, and usually its only in highly rural areas. And even then most of the languages are highly endangered.
They still do have a strong identity within Australia, but it just doesn't look good in the long term. I wouldn't say in the last 20 years there has been a significant decline, but the new generations certainly aren't flocking to learn indigenous languages. Perhaps there may be a push to reinforce their identities but I wouldn't hold my breath.[/QUOTE]
I suppose the decline is pretty strongly set in, but the growth of the population and how this is all out in the open and starting to gain traction, I don't think they are going to die out, unless something real bad got going.
Reinforcing identities is something I'm sorta mixed about. If it's taught in schools to anybody interested I'd say go for it, but forcing kids to learn a language might end up backfiring.
It's to stop shit like this from happening:
[url]http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/mum-pleads-guilty-after-boy-dies-from-a-cut-on-his-foot-in-his-filthy-ratinfested-house-in-melbourne/story-fni0fee2-1226860477798[/url]
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you do nothing then people will complain that you aren't doing enough to rectify the generations of discrimination and subjugation. But then trying to separate their young to save them from the influence of a destructive community results in you being compared to nazis? And by destructive communities, I don't mean those that follow traditional aboriginal ways but rather those that are seeped in poverty, crime and substance abuse. I'm not saying that all aboriginal families need child welfare to intervene but you'd be kidding yourself if you said that a great number of them didn't.
Also, if we wanted people to man sweatshops we'd use asylum seekers.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;44314889]The problem is the disproportionate amount of children that are indigenous who are being taken away. A third of the children that are taken away are from a demographic that only represents 3% of the population. We really need to fix that.[/QUOTE]
It's because not as many of them are Urbanized.
I'm not for shifting a population away to change a statistics.
[editline]21st March 2014[/editline]
Hitler tried that.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44317751]It's because not as many of them are Urbanized.
I'm not for shifting a population away to change a statistics.
[editline]21st March 2014[/editline]
Hitler tried that.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously equating me to Hitler for a statement I didn't make (I never said anything about shifting a population)?
The way to solve disproportional statistics in this instance is to shift population from otherwise rural areas.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;44317787]Are you seriously equating me to Hitler for a statement I didn't make (I never said anything about shifting a population)?[/QUOTE]
Godwin strikes again.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44314081]The problem is that we have to a conflict between respecting first nations self determination and actually improving their qualities of life. First-Nations governments incredibly corrupt, just look at how unfairly bands are represented and how some tribes have hereditary leaders.[/QUOTE]
This is the same reason why native american communities are essentially drug infested shanty towns here too, the government provides subsidies but its up to the tribe leaders to where that money goes and it doesn't go to the people, it gets funneled into Indian business ventures like casinos and payday loan banks, and their anti government stance keeps the people, american citizens, from having access to social programs
[QUOTE=Sableye;44317922]This is the same reason why native american communities are essentially drug infested shanty towns here too, the government provides subsidies but its up to the tribe leaders to where that money goes and it doesn't go to the people, it gets funneled into Indian business ventures like casinos and payday loan banks, and their anti government stance keeps the people, american citizens, from having access to social programs[/QUOTE]
In this case the money goes to the people but they don't spend it wisely. Alcohol is a major issue, it's banned or restricted in a lot of places.
[QUOTE=Tasm;44316206]The discrimination is not baseless, however. You'd be completely ignorant to think this sort of discrimination happens just because of their colour and a misconceived stereotype. A lot of aborigines are prone to substance abuse and don't have much money, and a lot have been brought up in lifestyles where this behavior is seen as normal, it's a terrible cycle. When I was living in Cairns, aborigines were a huge problem with stealing/violence, I worked in a chemist retailer there, and at least once a day you'd get someone who looks aboriginal attempting to or stealing some stock. I kinda felt sorry for them when it happened. But on the other hand, they're given more money from social services for nothing than I get by working and blow it on cigarettes/alcohol abuse.
It's quite a vicious cycle, if anything on the most part, taking children away from their parents gets them away from this lifestyle, but there is a lot still wrong with the current system.
And to be honest, the generous handouts by the Australian government exclusive to aborigines fuels more discrimination, because there is no incentive for them to get a job if they're earning more from welfare than they would from an unskilled job.[/QUOTE]
I have to back this up. I live in Darwin and I've been just about everywhere, and some of the shit I've seen is shocking. I would believe that a significant proportion of these kids are being removed for good reasons. Not all aboriginal folk are messed up, you just judge everyone on an individual basis, but there are big problems within their communities.
I got screamed at in my face at point blank range for a durry not a week ago.
[QUOTE=Subby;44315703]Wow, lot of Australia hate. There is nothing stopping Aboriginals in Australia, in fact they are given first preference for a lot of things, what's stopping them is their up bringing, petrol/glue sniffing parents aren't going to be able to raise a kid properly. There's not much Australia can do unless we have a time machine . We protect the kid but remove them from their parents, we leave the kid with the parents and they end up abusing substances too[/QUOTE]
theres people getting high on glue and petrol?
[QUOTE=godfatherk;44319252]theres people getting high on glue and petrol?[/QUOTE]
Natives in all these countries get fucking wrecked in creative ways. A lot of it is simply because they go to the next easiest to fetch thing after Alcohol is banned.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44319260]Natives in all these countries get fucking wrecked in creative ways. A lot of it is simply because they go to the next easiest to fetch thing after Alcohol is banned.[/QUOTE]
But why?Australia is one of the wealthiest places on earth.I think Australia has the highest minimum wage out of any country there is.And I would expect social mobility to be quite high, as it is in the rest of the developed world. Why would you waste your life like that when there's a world of opportunities waiting for you? There are people dying to be given the chance to live and work in a western country.
There are regular cases of people traversing sahara to the morocco-spain border, or traversing the medditeranean from north africa to italy. A lot of them literally die trying.
we have even put shit in our fuel to stop the petrol sniffers
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel)[/url]
[QUOTE=godfatherk;44319312]But why?Australia is one of the wealthiest places on earth.I think Australia has the highest minimum wage out of any country there is.And I would expect social mobility to be quite high, as it is in the rest of the developed world. Why would you waste your life like that when there's a world of opportunities waiting for you? There are people dying to be given the chance to live and work in a western country.
There are regular cases of people traversing sahara to the morocco-spain border, or traversing the medditeranean from north africa to italy. A lot of them literally die trying.[/QUOTE]
There's no incentive to work if you're massively supplied for.
There's more benefits to being unemployed and native than to work.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44319364]There's no incentive to work if you're massively supplied for.
There's more benefits to being unemployed and native than to work.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this new insight Herbert Spencer.It has been proven wrong for the last...oh...I don't know decades by scientists.
People like to work when the feel like accomplishing something with it.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44319364]There's no incentive to work if you're massively supplied for.
There's more benefits to being unemployed and native than to work.[/QUOTE]
There is an incentive to work, because even if you work you are still eligible for financial assistance, but the amount of assistance you receive depends on how much you earn. Eg my rent assistance drops by 50 cents for every dollar I earn over $200 every week.
[QUOTE=Killuah;44319374]Thanks for this new insight Herbert Spencer.It has been proven wrong for the last...oh...I don't know decades by scientists.
People like to work when the feel like accomplishing something with it.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between Welfare and Native Welfare.
Native Welfare completely pushes them to go and work and get an education to the point where it's given out and paid for with them having no expenses.
It's simply easier and communities are built around it.
This article is all over the place. If you read the next half of it people from other countries might understand why this is happening.
The Aboriginal community is absolutely fucked in my town. 42 cars stolen in over a month with the majority being joy rides. 1 pregnant 18 year old died when there car crashed and all her friends bailed on her. Absolutely disgusting.
Makes me so sad just thinking of all the smart and cool dudes from back in school who must feel so ashamed to see this shit happen.
Not all cultures are the same and these things just happen disproportionately.
[QUOTE=kaine123;44315547]Just a quick general question from a non-Australian. Do you feel there's a lot of discrimination against Aborigines in both systematically and socially?[/QUOTE]
As someone who did Indigenous health as a compulsory part of their medical training (at UQ), non indgienous Australia says there isn't, mostly because it's not as horrific as it once was. Indigenous Australia says yes, and the stats are there to prove it.
[editline]23rd March 2014[/editline]
Currently in the NT, Aboriginal families have no say in their lives and most are worse off under the intervention than they were before you even consider the mental health impacts. Shits fucked, the government literally controls their day to day living and expenses. Even the families that were not dysfunctional had their rights stripped.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44317294]Reinforcing identities is something I'm sorta mixed about. If it's taught in schools to anybody interested I'd say go for it, but forcing kids to learn a language might end up backfiring.[/QUOTE]
Literally every country everywhere reinforces identities, and it's always mandatory. In Canada you get taught Canadian history. In America you get taught American history. I presume you appreciated learning about British history in your schools. If a country has a dual ethnic identity then both sides need to be taught.
If the history of European colonialism is being taught predominantly, so should any aboriginal history. From what I recall of the brief period where I learned about first nations in schooling, it was largely relegated to the periods where they were relevant to European interests, whereas European history was mutually exclusive of Native history.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;44320447]Literally every country everywhere reinforces identities, and it's always mandatory. In Canada you get taught Canadian history. In America you get taught American history. I presume you appreciated learning about British history in your schools. If a country has a dual ethnic identity then both sides need to be taught.
If the history of European colonialism is being taught predominantly, so should any aboriginal history. From what I recall of the brief period where I learned about first nations in schooling, it was largely relegated to the periods where they were relevant to European interests, whereas European history was mutually exclusive of Native history.[/QUOTE]
I'm not too fond of that sort of thing in history. I preferred history of Europe as a whole instead of focusing on Britain. Even then, I've enjoyed learning the history of non-European countries such as China, Russia, and the United States too.
I'd prefer it if children were largely taught more about the wider history of the world instead of their tiny corner of the world.
Native history is difficult considering we know as much of what we know about it is through archaeology or whatever somebody wrote about it at the time. I quite like reading about the Incan Empire too, it's my favorite of the American civilizations.
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