Hill: Americans overwhelmingly oppose sanctuary cities, - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51856638]Requiring people to be educated and contribute meaningfully to society is not unreasonable.[/QUOTE] what? i'm not sure how you got to this?

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856583] You may wish to consider that the only reason using a fake SSN is a felony is because they want to keep tabs on people for arbitrary deportation later.[/QUOTE] Why should she get access to a system that she hasn't paid into that citizens are pretty much forced into paying for? She's not entitled to it. And she was essentially stealing from it. I don't give a fuck about the sob story attached to her, the law is crystal fucking clear. End of story.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856637]What? It was a fake SSN. Ergo, not identity theft. Nor is it really fraud, because she was trying to find work, not claim government benefits.[/QUOTE] do you genuinley believe having a fake SSN isn't fraud if you're doing it for a "good reason"?

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856637]Nor is it really fraud[/QUOTE] Courts disagree with ya bud

[QUOTE=Elspin;51856408]What are you talking about? The [i]exact wording[/i] in the survey is: Regardless of what laws are being proposed right now there was a very clear unambiguous question: if someone caught committing a crime turns out to be an illegal immigrant, should they have to be turned over to immigration authorities (presumably leading to deportation). That has nothing to do with racial profiling As for the definition of sanctuary cities, there's no legal definition that corresponds to it so it's kinda up in the air. IMO there's a hell of a lot more to the term than just "telling officers not to frisk everybody".[/QUOTE] I've got no issue with an immigrant who commits serious crimes being deported, but there becomes a serious problem in deporting those immigrants who [I]aren't[/I] committing crimes, because it makes them understandably fearful of cooperating with police and governmental officials. Thus, they will be considerably less likely to report crimes or cooperate as witnesses -- even when they are the victim. This can fuel incidents of gang violence and domestic abuse, among other things.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51856669]It is fraud. Currently. The law needs to be changed to accomodate this circumstance: Faking a SSN to work, not to claim benefits.[/QUOTE] The law doesn't need to change to accommodate fraud in any circumstance. Maybe get a work visa and stop gaming our fuckin system.

[QUOTE=Gubbinz96;51856647]Why should she get access to a system that she hasn't paid into that citizens are pretty much forced into paying for? [/QUOTE] Perhaps you should look at the actual facts for once. It's well acknowledged by anyone who actually knows what they're talking about that immigrants in general, but especially illegal immigrants are good for our economy. This is especially true because any working illegal immigrant on a payroll is also getting that payroll taxed despite not being able to qualify for literally any benefit that a majority of social welfare programs we have which instead is used up by shitty rural hick towns that can't support themselves. Here's your spooky government study that supports my data ([URL]https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_notes/note151.pdf[/URL]) Woo. If you can't bother to read and/or understand statistical studies and graphs, once again you really have no say in a discussion for educated people. In fact have additional info. ([url]http://www.itep.org/pdf/immigration2016.pdf[/url]) If you take that for instance, surely even you can recognize that there is absolutely no way to avoid certain taxes that are applied to everyone. Immigrants on a payroll pay income tax, immigrants that need food and everyday items to survive pay a sales tax, etc. You genuinely cannot believe that illegal immigrants are leeches unless you're mentally unhinged or you believe in "alternative facts."

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;51856771]I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your argument, but you seem to be heavily implying that, besides twisting the immigration system for those who want to come in legally, illegal immigrants are good because they live in subhuman conditions, are cheap labor to their bosses and cheap net income to the state[/QUOTE] I certainly wouldn't say it's a GOOD situation, but the solution to "conditions are so bad in these people's home countries for the underclass that people are willing to work in exploitative situations in America" is not "force them back into the even worse conditions back in their home countries". That doesn't solve anything, it just makes things worse for everybody involved. You need to fix things at the source, by improving the conditions of the home countries. There's obviously no easy solution to that, especially for an outisde country, but just booting them out of the US and plugging your ears solves literally nothing.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856637]What? It was a fake SSN. Ergo, not identity theft. Nor is it really fraud, because she was trying to find work, not claim government benefits.[/QUOTE] It is fraud, you fraudulently lied about your fucking identity. I'm all about making the system easier so people can enter the country, I'm all about trying to find new ways to look at individuals cases and work something out so they can continue to work. But if you are here illegally, no matter how sad it is and you get deported you can't be fucking outraged. You can argue well they help the economy because they pay taxes on goods, all of that shit is besides the point. You are here illegally, you get deported. It is pretty simple and you assume that risk when you come here.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51856638]The only things awful about it are how slow and expensive it is. Requiring people to be educated and contribute meaningfully to society is not unreasonable.[/QUOTE] the problem is you have to have lived here for like 10 years to naturalize, and you have to have a visa to get in here to even begin that process, a visa from a system which has been totally abused to bring in poorly trained indian IT guys to replace american programers so nobody else gets visas.

[QUOTE=MR-X;51856834]It is fraud, you fraudulently lied about your fucking identity. I'm all about making the system easier so people can enter the country, I'm all about trying to find new ways to look at individuals cases and work something out so they can continue to work. But if you are here illegally, no matter how sad it is and you get deported you can't be fucking outraged. You can argue well they help the economy because they pay taxes on goods, all of that shit is besides the point. You are here illegally, you get deported. It is pretty simple and you assume that risk when you come here.[/QUOTE] You people amaze me. Why should a Canadian know more about US Federal law than an American? It's ridiculous. Here's a link so all of you no longer have an excuse. [url]https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1011[/url] It explicitly states that one is only guilty of 'fraud' if one uses a fake SSN to apply for benefits. Looking for work doesn't seem to fit that bill unless they're using some really fucked up legal definition of 'benefit'. Trading labour for monetary compensation doesn't sound like much of a benefit to me.

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;51856771]You seem to be heavily implying that, besides twisting the immigration system for those who want to come in legally, illegal immigrants are good because they live in subhuman conditions, are cheap labor to their bosses and cheap net income to the state Also be careful to not suppress people's opinions[/QUOTE] My point is every plan that the GOP supports for mass deportation is inefficient and a waste of money. Your point isn't relevant because the GOP isn't pushing for deportation because they care about quality of life for illegal immigrants either, it's to take votes from people who are uneducated enough to believe that illegal immigrants are stealing "our way of life." You know what I like? Ideas and policies that are well thought out and efficient. That's it, that's my political party, I'll call it "Economic policies that aren't dumb". Neither party does that anymore, and I'll be as harsh as I want on people who continuously defend dumb and inefficient ideas under the guise that [B]something[/B] needs to be done. What matters to me is how much my income gets taxed and what that money goes towards and guess what, this isn't worth the money it would cost.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856864] Looking for work doesn't seem to fit that bill unless they're using some really fucked up legal definition of 'benefit'. Trading labour for monetary compensation doesn't sound like much of a benefit to me.[/QUOTE] The legal definition of a benefit is "any profit or acquired right or privilege, primarily through a contract". Considering that the job she had was legitimate, she signed a contract with the intention of making money(profit) from that job. In signing the contract, she gave a false SSN, which is a felony. It is not some crazy ex post facto law, it is a clear cut felony that you cannot use a false SSN under [U]any[/U] circumstances. The fact that she had a family here is irrelevant. She is not a legal citizen, she broke the law, and she pays the price.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856864]You people amaze me. Why should a Canadian know more about US Federal law than an American? It's ridiculous. Here's a link so all of you no longer have an excuse. [url]https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1011[/url] It explicitly states that one is only guilty of 'fraud' if one uses a fake SSN to apply for benefits. Looking for work doesn't seem to fit that bill unless they're using some really fucked up legal definition of 'benefit'. Trading labour for monetary compensation doesn't sound like much of a benefit to me.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/08pdf/08-108.pdf"]Supreme Court rulings[/URL] identify it as fraud if they (the illegal immigrants) knowingly use a social security card that is fraudulent, even without applying for benefits as with the case linked. going by literal law code being ignorant of the context of SCOTUS rulings on other related codes does not display an understanding of american law. there are multiple codes one can (and have) been charged under the creation of a fraudulent SSN card could also be a felony under document fraud. there are multiple crimes occurring here, and fraud is definitely one of them.

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;51857182] law abiding illegal immigrants .[/QUOTE] how can one simultaneously be law abiding and illegal?

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856431]This exactly. The Republicans don't want to target criminals - they want to target anyone they suspect of being an illegal immigrant, even if that person is living lawfully. Want an example? Guadalupe Garcia De Rayos, mother of two American citizens, who are teenagers. Lived in the US for eight years, doing whatever menial work she could find, checked in every year with an immigration officer for work authorization, and was deported to mexico along with hundreds of others thanks to Trump's executive order on the 25th of January. She had a criminal record, and was a registered felon. Her only crime? Trying to use a fake social security number to work to feed her family - eight years ago. [t]http://i.imgur.com/99uFliq.jpg[/t] Here is the photo of a protester who tied himself to the wheels of the van carrying her in an attempt to stop the injustice. [B]This is your America. I'm sure some of you must be very proud.[/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=archangel125;51856864][B]You people amaze me. Why should a Canadian know more about US Federal law than an American? It's ridiculous.[/B] Here's a link so all of you no longer have an excuse. [URL]https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1011[/URL] It explicitly states that one is only guilty of 'fraud' if one uses a fake SSN to apply for benefits. Looking for work doesn't seem to fit that bill unless they're using some really fucked up legal definition of 'benefit'. Trading labour for monetary compensation doesn't sound like much of a benefit to me.[/QUOTE]God just shut the fuck up, almost every post I see from you always reeks of "condescending prick" Like I get your points but you're always so patronizing about it. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - Pascall))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=OneFourth;51857227][URL="https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/08pdf/08-108.pdf"]Supreme Court rulings[/URL] identify it as fraud if they (the illegal immigrants) knowingly use a social security card that is fraudulent, even without applying for benefits as with the case linked. going by literal law code being ignorant of the context of SCOTUS rulings on other related codes does not display an understanding of american law. there are multiple codes one can (and have) been charged under the creation of a fraudulent SSN card could also be a felony under document fraud. there are multiple crimes occurring here, and fraud is definitely one of them.[/QUOTE] Fair enough. The point I'm making is that equating this particular offense with other offenses, especially with a mind for the context, is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure that by deporting Guadalupe, immigration officers dealt with a colossal threat to America and her people, right? What a horrible hardened criminal. For fuck's sake, she checked in with an immigration officer every single year for a work visa.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51857230]how can one simultaneously be law abiding and illegal?[/QUOTE] undocumented is probably a better word

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;51857182]To say its unfair to those who entered legally, so what? Make the whole system easier for everyone to get in and not just say "tough shit I had to pay for it you should to." [/QUOTE] Regardless of your view on the morality of it, illegal immigration has a real monetary cost associated with it. This line of thinking seems to ignores the very real reasons that the existing laws were put into place. Why do you think we have the existing immigration laws?

[QUOTE=OneFourth;51857355]Regardless of your view on the morality of it, illegal immigration has a real monetary cost associated with it. This line of thinking seems to ignores the very real reasons that the existing laws were put into place. Why do you think we have the existing immigration laws?[/QUOTE] That's why a harm reduction approach to law enforcement is better. Deporting people who aren't hardened criminals *Creates* hardened criminals. Their children and other dependents are usually American citizens. What happens to them when mom and dad are deported to Mexico? They go into the US's shitty foster care system, probably end up as criminals themselves later in life because they've got no opportunities to succeed and live a decent life. Which doesn't even consider the emotional cost of having their parents loaded into trucks and shipped off. This is exactly what Republicans want - to have more minority criminals to justify their self-fulfilling prophecy, in much the same way that Trump's ban on travel from Muslim countries would probably lead to a terror attack on US soil. Then they can say they were right all along and demand more power. Make America White Again. On the other hand, you give the people who are law-abiding and already in the country a path to citizenship or a green card, you turn them into citizens and ensure they become productive members of society, fix the backwards and broken immigration laws, and things suddenly get better. Then you focus your efforts on better border security to prevent MORE illegal immigrants entering the country without a valid refugee claim. Yes, killer, I often come across as condescending because I'm fucking livid all the time at how retarded the world seems to have become in the last year.

Just remember, despite what the public thinks, no law enforcement agency is going to turn them over for some other crime. Unless we're getting paid extra, we're not doing the feds job.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51857370] Yes, killer, I often come across as condescending because I'm fucking livid all the time at how retarded the world seems to have become in the last year.[/QUOTE]The world's always been retarded, the Internet just helps expose one to it a lot more. Just saying that even if you were 100% objectively correct on everything you ever say, people are less likely to agree if you come across as condescending and patronizing, people don't like being talked down to like that. The internet doesn't help with being livid, take a break from it for a week or something, walk around in the woods, smell the fresh air, get away from all this bullshit for a while and help clear your mind of the crap that is the internet, I know I definitely need to too..

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;51857293]reading comprehension[/QUOTE] don't get sassy at him. he understood your point but you [I]did[/I] basically just say "I don't see why otherwise law abiding criminals..." like i think the fundamental point of disagreement comes from one side thinking you should just be able to walk into a country and make a home and the other side having a fondness for immigration laws. seems silly to keep arguing semantics of it, you guys just disagree at a very fundamental level.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51856614]Are you guys really trying to compare our awful recreational drug laws, which were pushed for all the wrong reasons, to our immigration laws? You do realize that every country on the planet has an immigration process, right? "Living lawfully" doesn't fly anywhere else so why should it in the US?[/QUOTE] No, I suppose you're right. It [I]is[/I] unfair to compare a recreational activity to desperately trying to escape a hellhole to make a better life for one's family.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51856552]Imagine USA took in 1 Mexican per decade and you are a Mexican trying to get into USA. What do you do? [/QUOTE] Pick another country? I honestly don't understand why people even want to illegally enter the country via a dangerous process that probably costs them more money than if they just legally immigrated to a different country with more open immigration laws.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;51857230]how can one simultaneously be law abiding and illegal?[/QUOTE] This is completely circular logic. Of course you can say 100% of illegal immigrants are criminal if you include illegal immigration in their crimes. And 100% of murders in the United States are committed by murderers. That's meaningless information.

Yeah, I just don't consider illegal immigration to be a very serious crime in itself. It doesn't directly victimize anybody, it's not generally done with malice, and the large majority of undocumented immigrants are otherwise productive and peaceful members of society. There's obviously an argument to be made that undocumented immigration can increase economic or social strain, but I think that these problems are, overall, pretty marginal compared to the alternative. A heavyhanded approach to rooting out and punishing valuable groups and people in our society simply because they were born on the wrong side of a shallow river seems to do a lot more harm than good. Focus your efforts on the people who pose an actual threat, not to those who didn't bother dealing with the decades-long bureaucratic nightmare that is our immigration system.

[QUOTE=Killer900;51857479]The world's always been retarded, the Internet just helps expose one to it a lot more. Just saying that even if you were 100% objectively correct on everything you ever say, people are less likely to agree if you come across as condescending and patronizing, people don't like being talked down to like that. The internet doesn't help with being livid, take a break from it for a week or something, walk around in the woods, smell the fresh air, get away from all this bullshit for a while and help clear your mind of the crap that is the internet, I know I definitely need to too..[/QUOTE] Eh, you're right. I need a break. And to relearn how to argue properly. Swear I wasn't this bad two years ago...

Honestly, our immigration system can be fixed in various ways by making it much, much more easy to migrate. We can make immigrants a net benefit to our economy. This academic paper sheds some light on the arguments for and against immigration restrictions, which trickles down to affect illegal immigrants. Its a very interesting (if slightly libertarian in certain aspects) paper that shows that many fears of immigration aren't backed or are contradicted by research. [url]http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/pdfs/whyimmigration.pdf[/url]

"Legality is a poor barometer for morality". Immigrants have a crime rate lower than people living here already. [url]http://www.budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy[/url] - While some policymakers have blamed immigration for slowing U.S. wage growth since the 1970s, most academic research finds little long run effect on Americans’ wages. - The available evidence suggests that immigration leads to more innovation, a better educated workforce, greater occupational specialization, better matching of skills with jobs, and higher overall economic productivity. - Immigration also has a net positive effect on combined federal, state, and local budgets. But not all taxpayers benefit equally. In regions with large populations of less educated, low-income immigrants, native-born residents bear significant net costs due to immigrants’ use of public services, especially education.