Hill: Americans overwhelmingly oppose sanctuary cities, - Polidicks

[QUOTE=DoctorSalt;51860077]"Legality is a poor barometer for morality". Immigrants have a crime rate lower than people living here already. [url]http://www.budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy[/url] - While some policymakers have blamed immigration for slowing U.S. wage growth since the 1970s, most academic research finds little long run effect on Americans’ wages. - The available evidence suggests that immigration leads to more innovation, a better educated workforce, greater occupational specialization, better matching of skills with jobs, and higher overall economic productivity. - Immigration also has a net positive effect on combined federal, state, and local budgets. But not all taxpayers benefit equally. In regions with large populations of less educated, low-income immigrants, native-born residents bear significant net costs due to immigrants’ use of public services, especially education.[/QUOTE] Legal is fine, but is there a study on illegal immigrant crime rates?

[QUOTE=Tudd;51860099]Legal is fine, but is there a study on illegal immigrant crime rates?[/QUOTE] Sure. Starting from here: [url]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html[/url] I found this: [url]http://www.nber.org/papers/w13229.pdf[/url] [quote] immigrants have much lower institutionalization (incarceration) rates than the native born - on the order of one-fifth the rate of natives. ... We examine whether the improvement in immigrants' relative incarceration rates over the last three decades is linked to increased deportation, immigrant self-selection, or deterrence. Our evidence suggests that deportation does not drive the results. Rather, the process of migration selects individuals who either have lower criminal propensities or are more responsive to deterrent effects than the average native. Immigrants who were already in the country reduced their relative institutionalization probability over the decades; and the newly arrived immigrants in the 1980s and 1990s seem to be particularly unlikely to be involved in criminal activity, consistent with increasingly positive selection along this dimension.[/quote] I always assumed this was because they have a much larger incentive to be careful, but apparently that isn't the driving motivation.

Edgy teens. "Fuck the police I'll smoke weed its harmless and the laws are stupid. The feds should leave states where it is legalized alone." Same people. "Well these people are illegals and need to obey the laws of our country. Cities should respect federal law and assist the federal agencies with deporting people who break any sort of law."

Milwaukee is a "sanctuary city" and if you come here right now, you will have a hard time figuring out who is here illegally without asking for papers. Most of the crime here is not done by them, its done by US citizens (and good chance that they are under 30, black, and on the north side [53206 is one of the major areas]. Just ends up how the population resides at.). Those that do have some sort of income are spending it here. If they are literally doing nothing wrong at all ([B][U]BESIDES THE WHOLE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT BULLSHIT[/U][/B]), whats the point uprooting them and throwing them across the border?

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51864050]??? Can you provide ANY examples of modern American immigration laws that are objectively awful and/or pushed for the wrong reasons?[/QUOTE] it restricts immigration depending on what work you do or where you are from, with it favoured mostly towards people who are wealthy and/or come from western countries. if you are an investor with a lot of money to throw around it's easy to become a citizen, but if you're a factory worker you're shit out of luck the other retarded restriction is that it makes it hard for seasonal workers to work and live in the USA and move over the border. you'd improve things considerably by allowing more seasonal workers (something like this could work [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program[/url] )

The whole point comes down to what we're going to define as legal immigration. What's the point of having borders at all if we allow people to come in regardless? Do we make it like the old Cuba rule where if you actually make it across the border you're good to go, but if you get caught short you get thrown back in? I understand the moral and legal issues surrounding the issue, but this isn't one of those situations where we can have our cake and eat it to. You either enforce the border and your immigration, or deregulate the border and immigration. You can't do both, so don't say you support stronger borders while allowing for those who are already in to stay because at that point we might as well just make it the Cuba rule ie defacto no real border.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51865198]Favors people from western countries? Just take a look at our immigration statistics.. the vast majority of immigrants that become permanent residents and naturalized citizens are from Asia and Latin America.[/quote] that's why i said "wealthy and/or western" nearly half of the immigrants come from western countries, and many of the rest are those who are already wealthy [quote]Why should we let in factory workers and other low-skilled people? We've already got a surplus, and it's only going to get worse as more factories close and automation starts picking up. We'd just be increasing the number of unemployed and homeless people on the streets.[/QUOTE] if there wasn't any work for these people then how come A: a lot of immigrants are employed/seek employment and B: people die crossing the border just to get work? the idea that more people = less jobs is a fallacy btw. any unemployment (or lack therof) is a result of structural changes to the economy. temporary changes are the realm of population expansion and contraction also by making it easier for people to work and live in the USA they can actually integrate into the society more easily by paying their taxes and contributing to the local economies instead of going underground also how would you increase the homeless? won't more people mean a bigger demand for housing and therefore more construction thus stimulating the economy?

[QUOTE=archangel125;51856637]What? It was a fake SSN. Ergo, not identity theft. Nor is it really fraud, because she was trying to find work, not claim government benefits.[/QUOTE] Fake = not her SS. It was a stolen SS number. That's what she was convicted of specifically. Criminal impersonation. As far as I know you can't just make up a SS number and role with it, there has too be a name attached to it. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51865383]Not even close, out of all the people becoming permanent residents or naturalized citizens annually, not even 15% are from wealthy western countries. (IE Europe, Canada, etc).[/quote] uh you can be rich while coming from a poorer country. a lot of chinese businessmen find it fashionable these days to buy up land, corporations, and the like in america. others include educated students who are already pretty skilled when they go over. they're the ones who don't need to worry [quote]If we include Latin America then yes, half of immigrants are western, but they're not the pasty white, super rich immigrants you think they are. Believe it or not, not all Americans against illegal immigration are racists. I, and a lot of other people, are perfectly fine with people coming here from anywhere on the planet, regardless of race, religion, etc, as long as it's done [I]legally.[/I][/QUOTE] well no, a lot of them are the wealthier or more privileged ones themselves. again, if you have a lot money it's actually pretty easy to move to america. this can include people with connections to politicians or businessmen (particularly corrupt ones) who can rentseek some cash and then fly over to the USA and use it for "investment" that allows them to live there

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51857674]Yeah, I just don't consider illegal immigration to be a very serious crime in itself.[/QUOTE] I'd have to disagree with this. Not particularly directed at you BDA but for everyone who thinks the act of illegally crossing the border isn't a big deal. Excluding people who just overstayed their work visas, people crossing from the southern border in particular are a problem, regardless of how they act once inside the USA. Not everyone is able to just walk across a broken fence into the next town over and be home free. Some people who cross the border do so with the help of smugglers, which in turn helps finance the illegal operations of Mexican cartels. Those groups of undocumented immigrants in particular are guilty of providing material support to criminal syndicates in exchange for """safe""" (but not really) passage across the border. Yes the whole system for legal immigration should be improved but in the meantime, state and federal authorities should not let those kinds of border crossings go unchecked. Exceptions and leniency should probably be given to people who have expired green cards or work visas though. There should probably be a federal program to streamline the process of becoming naturalized and a citizen if they are interested in staying long term.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51865475]There isn't as much work available as you think. The number of illegal immigrants is shrinking, and more of them are crossing the border to leave as opposed to coming in.[/quote] a lot of them are leaving because of increasing hostility + improved working conditions and wages in mexico [quote]Where did I say that more people = less jobs? The problem here is that a lot of unskilled/low-skilled jobs are going to disappear over the next few decades, there's simply not going to be enough jobs available for everyone, letting in millions more unskilled/low-skilled people isn't going to help. You need to pay rent to keep a roof over your head, no one is going to build more homes/apartments just because a bunch of people that can't find employment immigrated here.[/QUOTE] you said that there aren't enough jobs for the immigrants when this can be proven wrong by a cursory look at the myriad of companies that already hire immigrant labour and the fact that every day a great number of people come to America for work. if there isn't enough work and it's in decline, why are there still so many coming?

[QUOTE=Gubbinz96;51856647]Why should she get access to a system that she hasn't paid into that citizens are pretty much forced into paying for? She's not entitled to it. And she was essentially stealing from it. I don't give a fuck about the sob story attached to her, the law is crystal fucking clear. End of story.[/QUOTE] she was paying into it though? isn't she just paying a share of something she'll never get to use as an illegal anyways?

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51866092]So in other words the only thing they care about is easy money, why should we take these people in, again?[/quote] well one of the big life philosophies in the USA seems to be making easy money so i don't see why that's a problem [quote]What companies are tripping over each other to hire illegal immigrants? That's the thing, they aren't coming. The number of illegal immigrants coming in has been on a sharp decline for a while now.[/QUOTE] there's still a large number migrating regardless looking for work? also i imagine that if it is declining i don't exactly see what the problem would be with loosening immigration restrictions anyways?

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51866092]So in other words the only thing they care about is easy money, why should we take these people in, again?[/QUOTE] You can't use "in other words" to try and put a false argument into somebody else's mouth. Not even mentioning the whole "increased hostility" bit, improved working conditions and better wages directly lead to an improved quality of life. Unless you are trying to say "I can't believe immigrants want a good life" you shouldn't be surprised that they would seek these things because everybody does - it's why Industrial Relations developed and people aren't working for scraps in toxic conditions anymore. And if somebody moves from one state to another for a better job, or in Europe moves from one member state to another, they are doing the same thing - the only reason you vilify it here is because the people in question came from a different, specific country. Well, to say all that in a shorter way, they care about the exact same things as almost anyone else, to nobody's great surprise.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51865136]What's the point of having borders at all if we allow people to come in regardless?[/QUOTE] Honestly, as a person who wants to see the world united under a single peaceful banner, a world without borders sounds pretty rad.

[QUOTE=Gubbinz96;51856647]Why should she get access to a system that she hasn't paid into that citizens are pretty much forced into paying for? She's not entitled to it. And she was essentially stealing from it. I don't give a fuck about the sob story attached to her, the [B]law is crystal fucking clear[/B]. End of story.[/QUOTE] Holy fuck, for a community with a left wing bias, some posters are fucking QUICK to jump on the "L@w N' Ord3R" cock. You know how many laws you break every day? Every time you go over the speed limit, you're "L1TERALLY" breaking the law, and ENDANGERING OTHER DRIVERS! Should you be thrown in SuperMax for that? Riddle me this: we're fuckin' OUTRAGED over an illegal immigrant mom [B]~~~BREAKING DA [U]KRYSTAL CLEAR[/U] LAW~~~ [/B]but the crooked bankers who absolutely FUCKED millions of Americans in the 2007/8 housing are g2g, np? Give me a FUCKING break with this Law and Order™ bullshit.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866362]To be perfectly fair, you get punished within the extent of the law, because you broke the law (assuming you get caught). The same thing happens to illegal immigrants. They get punished, within the extent of the law (assuming they get caught).[/QUOTE] My issue is with the [I]HARD LINE[/I] stance some people in this thread have on "BUT THE LAW!" when people who commit FAR MORE EGREGIOUS (read: Wall Street) crimes get away scot-free, no issues, [I]even when they are caught and everyone is aware of their guilt.[/I]

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866428]But it is the law, and people break it, and get punished for doing so. Just because one person doesn't get punished, doesn't mean the others shouldn't get punished. By that logic no one should have been convicted of murder since the OJ trial. Now. This being said. It's a fucking travesty of justice that some people get off scot free, and some people get the absolute book thrown at them. In a perfect world, everyone would be on a level playing field. [B]But we don't live in said utopia.[/B][/QUOTE] You're right, we don't, and because the outcomes of law breakers are unequal, we shouldn't strive to disproportionately penalize those at the bottom like some people in this thread want. [B]The fact that undocumented immigrants are breaking the law and can be perceived as "slapping the face" of those who came in legally is not lost on me.[/B] I just want to make sure we're all grounded in reality here.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866495][B]I don't want to disproportionately penalize them.. I want them punished to the extent of the law.[/B] The law says show up illegally=get deported. I have no qualms with this. I have qualms with how one gets here legally, and that's where change needs to be made, not by just saying "oh fuck this law, it doesn't matter".[/QUOTE] "We don't live in a utopia, so don't expect everyone to get caught." "I want illegals punished to the fullest extent of the law whilst knowing the fact that the privileged in our society get away with flagrant violations of the law. I justify this contradiction by saying that I'd like everyone to be punished fairly, even though in practice it's not the case." Do you not see the issue I have with this logic? I'm not shitting on you, because I see where you're coming from. I'm trying to persuade you to see that by pushing this "Law and Order" narrative, it disproportionally affects the impoverished and lower classes of society, because by your own admission, we don't live in a utopia and in our society those groups are statistically hit the hardest by this type of rhetoric and it's corrosponding policies. I would like everyone to be treated equally as well, but they aren't, so It'd be nice if people eased off the demonization of non-violent undocumented immigrants soley because they "broke the law."

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866575]I'm not demonizing them. I really don't have a strong opinion about them. But the law, is indeed the law, and [B]if we're going to start picking and choosing which ones to enforce, then why bother enforcing any of them at all?[/B][/QUOTE] Because, as you said, "we don't live in a utopia." Should marijuana users go to jail too, since it's against the law? No matter how much you want it to be, saying "the law is the law" doesn't make it true in practice.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866599][B]So, we're to ignore someone committing a crime because they're poor? Because they're disadvantaged? Should we ignore a murder if the person who committed it was below the poverty level?[/B] Should we ignore theft if the thief was a minority? Or perhaps ignore fraud, as long as the victim was rich and the perp was poor. Or, or, we can punish everyone, equally. Which means applying the law to all.[/QUOTE] No, we shouldn't. I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying don't take a hard-line stance on undocumented immigrants being "lawbreakers" by existing in the US when there are tons of unenforced, unpopular laws that don't have these ardent "Law N' Order" champions beating the propaganda drum. The argument against undocumented immigrants in this thread seems to hinge on the fact that they're "breaking the law," not so much that they are actually doing anything wrong, which I find disingenuous.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866626][B]Then, as I said before, change the law. Make it easier to be a legal immigrant, make it so that it doesn't take 20+ years to do so, and keep enforcing the law. [/B] The only point of having a border, is to enforce it. If you're not doing that, then there's no point in even bothering. If there aren't any repercussions to illegally immigrating, then why bother becoming legal?[/QUOTE] I'm with you there (bolded text). But can you honestly say, with a straight face, that every law that currently exists in the United States should be followed and enforced to the letter?

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866733]No, I cant. But I also couldn't walk into a court room with a straight face and say "your honor, I understand I broke the law by speeding, but you see, the speed limit is too low, so I had to speed".[/QUOTE] Fair enough. Still waiting to see the anti-drug law n' order brigade come in professing how it's the duty of cops to bust down grandpa's door because he's lighting up a joint on the weekends. The law is the law, after all. /s People are pretty damn selective about when "Law and Order" matters. "Should illegals be deported"? Oh absolutely, they're breaking the law, and the law is the law. "Should marijuana smokers be prosecuted?" Ehh, nah, it's a harmless drug, let it go already. Leave it to the states.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866837]My point is: If you're doing something illegal, don't bitch and complain when you get caught, and suffer the consequences. Do I agree with weed being legal? Fuck yea. Do I want people prosecuted for smoking it? Fuck no. But, again, the law is the law, so if you're in possession of weed, in a state that has prohibited it, then don't complain when you get caught and suffer the consequences. The same for illegally immigrating. Wanna come here illegally? Fine, but if/when you get caught, don't sit and bitch about the fact that you're suffering the consequences of your actions. We're human. We're completely and utterly free to do what ever it is we please, but there are consequences for every action, and if you're going to do something that you flat out know has bad consequences, then for the love of god don't bitch and complain when you suffer those consequences.[/QUOTE] I see the logic, but I disagree with it. Civil Disobedience is a huge part of American history from the Boston Tea Party to the famous sit-ins during the Civil Rights movement. The people of color who sat in 'whites only' establishments had every moral right to 'bitch' about getting jailed for their bogus "crimes," and their bitching brought national attention to the issue and was instrumental in getting the unjust laws repealed and the Civil Rights Act passed. I just can't agree with the sentiment "well it was against the law and you did it so no sympathy here, just shut your mouth and take it." Lacks nuance and puts wayyy too much faith in the sanctity of laws. DoctorSalt summed it up perfectly at the top of the page: "Legality is a poor barometer for morality"

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51864050]??? Can you provide ANY examples of modern American immigration laws that are objectively awful and/or pushed for the wrong reasons?[/QUOTE] the whole H-1B visa program, which is supposed to be used to recruit highly trained workers through a pool of 10,000 visas a year, but instead is allowed to be used up by one firm from India which submits 100,000 applications for stupid tech support guys. the 10 year process to become a citizen which is exceptionally long when you are confronted with things like the Trump admin who want to remove greencard holders from this country

I'm honestly surprised of Facepunch's view on this. What are the point of sanctuary cities, where immigrants can go through a legal process and become full citizens this way? Illegal Aliens shouldn't belong in any country, immigrants should atleast go for some sort of green card. I'm in no way against immigration, but people should go through legal channels. Illegal immigration can cause problems if a country's growth rate can't withstand so many people coming in. I think America has plenty of room, but in my opinion we should make the immigration process easier so people don't have to be illegal.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51866319]It's a problem because it's a pretty shitty reason (if it's your only reason) to permanently move to another country. Don't tell me you'd accept large numbers of people coming into your home country that don't care about integrating?[/quote] but a lot of Mexican immigrants do integrate? either they settle down and try to adjust to life in the USA, or they pack up after a season of work and leave [quote]Yes but here's the deal, most of the people you're talking about come here legally via work visas because they have something that makes them sought after, be it some skill, they're well educated, etc. Illegal immigration is on the decline for a reason.[/QUOTE] except those skills and their demand are determined by the US government - not the US private businesses and markets the USA is a massive federation, the government immigration policy is extremely inflexible [editline]24th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866837]My point is: If you're doing something illegal, don't bitch and complain when you get caught, and suffer the consequences. Do I agree with weed being legal? Fuck yea. Do I want people prosecuted for smoking it? Fuck no. But, again, the law is the law, so if you're in possession of weed, in a state that has prohibited it, then don't complain when you get caught and suffer the consequences. The same for illegally immigrating. Wanna come here illegally? Fine, but if/when you get caught, don't sit and bitch about the fact that you're suffering the consequences of your actions. We're human. We're completely and utterly free to do what ever it is we please, but there are consequences for every action, and if you're going to do something that you flat out know has bad consequences, then for the love of god don't bitch and complain when you suffer those consequences.[/QUOTE] this makes sense until you realise that this means following laws which conflict with morality I can complain about unjust laws and you don't have a right to tell me not to

While I understand people opposed to illegal immigration I feel like all of this is just a strawman for people to focus on instead of the fact that Trump isn't actually doing anything to resolve the core issue that is our immigration system. He's just sorta sponging the water up from a leak instead of installing new pipes, while at best promising to stick gum into the leak.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51866626]Then, as I said before, change the law. Make it easier to be a legal immigrant, make it so that it doesn't take 20+ years to do so, and keep enforcing the law.[/QUOTE] I love this argument, because it's the go-to for all conservatives when it comes to immigration. Now they're in control, are they changing the law? Fuck no. In fact they've made it [I]harder[/I] to get here legally as well as illegally. Illegal immigrants are a scapegoat, the truth is, they don't want the legal immigrants either.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;51856624]Our immigration process is awful too.[/QUOTE] The US physically cannot support unmetered immigration. Our economy cannot, our infrastructure cannot.