It happened: Russia Invades Ukraine. You read that right ... AKA Shit hits the fan. - Polidicks

[QUOTE] but in Russia itself things weren't too bad so people are nostalgic for it.[/QUOTE] Sorry But you have a distorted view of people fared in the old days of the red banner Have you read any economic history book about the matter? They are nostalgic because they are short sighted and can't CLEARLY remember what happened in those days. [QUOTE]but it was way more equal.[/QUOTE] Its like saying, I prefer to live in Ethiopia rather than in US because there's more equality than in US..

I don't see russia having boots on the ground in central or western europe if things degenerate into fullblown war between NATO allies and Russian allies [thumb]http://www.worldmapper.org/images/largepng/279.png[/thumb] millitary expenditures map, which visualizes the size of the budgets relative to one another

[QUOTE=godfatherk;45828696]I don't see russia having boots on the ground in central or western europe if things degenerate into fullblown war between NATO allies and Russian allies [thumb]http://www.worldmapper.org/images/largepng/279.png[/thumb] millitary expenditures map, which visualizes the size of the budgets relative to one another[/QUOTE] Nah, looks more like the obesity scale of people between countries.

[QUOTE=godfatherk;45828696]I don't see russia having boots on the ground in central or western europe if things degenerate into fullblown war between NATO allies and Russian allies [thumb]http://www.worldmapper.org/images/largepng/279.png[/thumb] millitary expenditures map, which visualizes the size of the budgets relative to one another[/QUOTE] It has nothing to do how much each nation spends into armament. For all we care, the T90 is WAY cheaper than an Abrams, but has similar if not a little bit inferior perfomance.

'a little'

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45828733] For all we care, the T90 is WAY cheaper than an Abrams, but has similar if not a little bit inferior perfomance.[/QUOTE] iirc, the later T-90 models were actually quite good, and didn't match the "Russian Printing Press" misconception (that most people have when it comes to Russian armour)

[QUOTE=MrEndangered;45828713]Nah, looks more like the obesity scale of people between countries.[/QUOTE] africa and australia need food :(

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45828649]Sorry But you have a distorted view of people fared in the old days of the red banner Have you read any economic history book about the matter? They are nostalgic because they are short sighted and can't CLEARLY remember what happened in those days.[/QUOTE] You're severely underestimating the power of national pride.

[QUOTE=Riller;45826913]The "military on leave" part still bothers the fuck out of me. Well, the whole Russia allowing citizens to travel to Ukraine to fight a war without punishment thing is fucked up, but especially that they're letting their soldiers go there. At least to me..[/QUOTE] Russian soldiers on leave are going to a holiday... in Ukraine... with tanks...

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;45828842]You're severely underestimating the power of national pride.[/QUOTE] That's what I'm saying....they put national pride first before anything If you put national pride first, then you are being a dumb son of a bitch, because in the name of national pride, humanity has been doing atrocities since the modern state was invented.

Russia is really taking advantage of the fact that Ukraine's military is disorganized and stretched out do to the rebellions. We'll probably see something similar to what happened in Georgia but if Putin is bat shit insane he'll want all of Ukraine, and then maybe even Europe but only time will tell.

[QUOTE=StolenArc;45828988]Russia is really taking advantage of the fact that Ukraine's military is disorganized and stretched out do to the rebellions. We'll probably see something similar to what happened in Georgia but if Putin is bat shit insane he'll want all of Ukraine, and then maybe even Europe but only time will tell.[/QUOTE] Personally, I see it that it will be pretty much all of the land east of the Dneiper. If it's true that troops are on the move along the coast from Mariupol towards Crimea, it exposes the eastern flank of the Ukrainians. Not to forget the possibility of amphibious landings in Berdyansk and Prymors'k and troops moving through Crimea, Melitopol is probably next once those have been completed. If they capture the entire highway from Mariupol to Crimea, it forms a basic logistical corridor and a much bigger footprint to start operations from. As known by most now to be some sort of influence, I guess the commodity-rich east is Putins goal so he can cut his losses from sanctions and increasing costs, thus splitting the country in half, controlling the entirety of the Azov Sea and a catastrophe for the Ukrainians. [B]These are only my thoughts though, it may not happen that way.[/B]

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;45828786]iirc, the later T-90 models were actually quite good, and didn't match the "Russian Printing Press" misconception (that most people have when it comes to Russian armour)[/QUOTE] Yepp, T-90s are a force to be reckoned with.

People seem to be comparing this to the beginnings of the Second World War, but to me it seems reminiscent of the First.

One thing's for certain, though: if Britain gets involved, I shall declare myself a conscientious objector. No way am I dying for Washington and Brussels.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45828434]That's a great post. However I don't understand: everybody says "Putin is promoting USSR nostalgia and USSR v2". But what did he do that signals this way? Current Russia is nothing like USSR, except for mentality of people.[/QUOTE] I think saying he wants to bring back the USSR is probably wrong anyways. He wants to bring back the Russian Empire.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45828649]Sorry But you have a distorted view of people fared in the old days of the red banner Have you read any economic history book about the matter? They are nostalgic because they are short sighted and can't CLEARLY remember what happened in those days.[/QUOTE] You're not thinking clearly because you fail to understand the fact that life was better for most Russians under several golden-periods in the Soviet Union (60s, 70s, mid 80s) in contrast to the absolutely shitty post-collapse 90s, a devastating period of time that Russia has still not fully recovered from two decades down the road. National pride has little to do with anything, and whatever economic history book you've read is concerned with numbers and statistics rather than societal elements which is what people are actually nostalgic about. During the Soviet times, there was a strong sense of order, a sense of duty and collective obligation not exclusively to the state, but also towards your neighbor. People were mostly unified and things were relatively calm because there was this great feel of living in a strong nation with good people. All that went out the window towards the later years of the Soviet Union. People started robbing, a massive fucking drug-wave poured over from Afghanistan as a result of border-police just quitting their posts because there was no central leadership anymore - which is basically the roots of the current Russian drug problem, the theft of billions of dollars by the once-trusted state officials, the spike in crime, everything. People lost not only their money, they lost their national identities. No shit people are nostalgic about living in a period of time that was objectively better than it is now.

[QUOTE=BananaFoam;45829387]He wants to bring back the Russian Empire.[/QUOTE]Sweden please annex us pretty fucking FAST

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45828649]Sorry But you have a distorted view of people fared in the old days of the red banner Have you read any economic history book about the matter? They are nostalgic because they are short sighted and can't CLEARLY remember what happened in those days. Its like saying, I prefer to live in Ethiopia rather than in US because there's more equality than in US..[/QUOTE] You are comparing the Soviet Union to other countries, but the many of the people who lived in it don't realize what life outside of Russia is like. I'm comparing the way life was during the USSR compared to life after it. Without Communism in place, people became dirt poor and a lot of Russia has been, in the eyes of many, exploited. And the macroeconomics of communism don't matter for shit to many Russians who just want the old ways back. Sure, things are better in the Federation now, but as others have said, that's mostly because of Putin (or at least it appears it is; I don't really know whether or not it was his policies or it was good luck on his part). Yes, the Soviet Union was oppressive and harsh, but until recently Russians didn't [I]know[/I] anything else. That sounds stereotypical, but it is true. Before the Soviet Union there was the Tsardom. And keep in mind I don't agree with bringing the USSR back in any way, I am just saying there are people that do. They aren't even a majority in the population (as I said, I have seen at highest 50% poll rates for people who want to revive the Soviet Union), but they are there.

here is a useful chart for playing bingo [t]http://i.imgur.com/iSHUgQ2.jpg[/t]

/pol/ is dancing

[QUOTE=godfatherk;45828696]I don't see russia having boots on the ground in central or western europe if things degenerate into fullblown war between NATO allies and Russian allies [thumb]http://www.worldmapper.org/images/largepng/279.png[/thumb] millitary expenditures map, which visualizes the size of the budgets relative to one another[/QUOTE] UK sure is fat on that map. What a waste of money.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45829548]UK sure is fat on that map. What a waste of money.[/QUOTE] Does this map take into account that towards the poles on most maps, the area of land is increased? That would explain why Alaska is so fucking huge.

[QUOTE=cqbcat;45827236]So After Russia conquers Ukraine, what nation do you think they'll go after next? Me thinks Greece?[/QUOTE] The most likely outcome is that they'll head for Transnistria next. Maybe integrate Abkhazia and South Ossetia this time.

[QUOTE=MillySoose;45829579]Does this map take into account that towards the poles on most maps, the area of land is increased? That would explain why Alaska is so fucking huge.[/QUOTE] Alaska is part of the US so it is swollen to the same degree as the US.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45828649]Sorry But you have a distorted view of people fared in the old days of the red banner Have you read any economic history book about the matter? They are nostalgic because they are short sighted and can't CLEARLY remember what happened in those days. Its like saying, I prefer to live in Ethiopia rather than in US because there's more equality than in US..[/QUOTE] I had a lady from Ukraine who worked at my house tell me about life in the Soviet Union, according to her they had jobs and could get food and everything to lead a good life, and now they have to go abroad to even find work that pays enough to survive. Obviously a lot of people feel the same way as her. Not saying the Soviet Union was a good place to live but for many people given the choice they would go back.

[QUOTE=godfatherk;45828696]I don't see russia having boots on the ground in central or western europe if things degenerate into fullblown war between NATO allies and Russian allies [thumb]http://www.worldmapper.org/images/largepng/279.png[/thumb] millitary expenditures map, which visualizes the size of the budgets relative to one another[/QUOTE] ah yes the great american bear

[QUOTE=BananaFoam;45828067]Sorry, but that is the bullshit they feed us in our history textbooks. The war ended the minute Hitler invaded arguably the most powerful entity in the world at that point. We like to pretend that the German war machine was at its height and only beatable by the "good guys" teaming up to pub-stomp the Hun, but in truth Russia's industrial capacity, numerical superiority, and even their technology was better. But that is also forgetting the logistics of it all. Russia is a huge and, at the time, it lacked a lot of infrastructure. The Ruskies fought bitterly every inch of it. Hitler simply couldn't keep his men sufficiently supplied. It isn't Russians or Russian winters that will defeat you; it's the sheer enormity of the country. The problem with your post is that the battles you are referring to (Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad, e.t.c) that the US supposedly "saved" the Soviets from losing by distracting Hitler [I]all happened before the Allied landings at Normandy.[/I] Sure, we had invaded Italy by that point, but as the First World War shows us the Alps are almost impossible to surmount, especially when troops are harassing you the whole way (this is why Hannibal's feat is still remember well over 2,200 years later). What really [I]did[/I] help the Soviets (that our history books somehow forget to mention) was the Lend-Lease act, which helped make up for Russia's lack of equipment and vehicles (especially logistical vehicles like trucks) as Stalin's virtual reconstruction of the Russian economy had left them without these things in the early war. Even without that gear, the Russians still would have won. Giving the benefit of the doubt, even [I]if[/I] Hitler managed to conquer Russia, rebellions and discontent would force him right back out again. I'm not siding with Russia or anything; they were and are still horrible (or their government is, anyways, no offense to Russian FPers), but by 1944 the war was basically over. Hitler wasn't coming back from Barbarossa. Although US involvement was crucial to the war (especially with Japan), there just isn't a feasible way that Hitler could defeat the Soviet Union in its prime. Invading Russia is a logistical nightmare that even the most advanced armies today couldn't pull off. Good GOD did I derail that shit. Getting back on track: this is a nightmare. So far the Russians seem to just be helping the separatists and maybe sizing up the effectiveness and resolve of the new Ukrainian government and their military. If they make repeated success, I expect them to keep on going, as Putin has already gambled to much to back down now. Putin is hardly the only one. Times in the Soviet Union were generally better for a large part of the population than they are now. I've read upwards of half of Russian citizens would like to see the Union return, and it isn't hard to see why. Communism may not be very effective, but it was way more equal. People in Russia are chafing under the free market system because Russia's collapse and transition from a communist economy to a market one was rapid and unstable. Once again, I agree that Putin is completely mad, but you have to understand why so many people support his actions. For many, life in the Soviet Union [I]was[/I] actually better than life in Russia today in many ways. We only think differently because we constantly get the idea that Soviet Russia was some kind of dystopia rammed down our throats. Sure, it sucked for pretty much everyone outside of Russia (Poland and East Germany were deliberately kept poor after WWII) but in Russia itself things weren't too bad so people are nostalgic for it.[/QUOTE] I think what people mean is that Britain, the US etc even being enemies with Germany kept them from putting quite a few of their units in Russia. I mean, even before the invasion happened 3 whole German armies were in Western Europe because they knew that an invasion was going to take place at some point. Not to mention that the allied armies in Italy were keeping several German armies from fighting the Soviets.

[QUOTE=Turing;45829479]here is a useful chart for playing bingo [t]http://i.imgur.com/iSHUgQ2.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] I like bingo cards because it looks like you're rebutting people without actually doing it. [editline]29th August 2014[/editline] Putin's a bar steward.

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;45830042]I think what people mean is that Britain, the US etc even being enemies with Germany kept them from putting quite a few of their units in Russia. I mean, even before the invasion happened 3 whole German armies were in Western Europe because they knew that an invasion was going to take place at some point. Not to mention that the allied armies in Italy were keeping several German armies from fighting the Soviets.[/QUOTE] Obviously it helped. That's why the Soviets asked the western Allies to open a new front in the first place.