Senate Republicans trim tax bill to secure needed votes
235 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52940271]The Democrats at least occasionally stand for some principle or issue. They have an annoying authoritarian streak with guns that I'd like to see them step away from and I generally find liberal attempts at foreign policy to be naive at best but when it comes to things like technology, communication, the environment, education, entitlement programs, defense, income inequality, and workplace safety that are fairly consistent as a party in supporting these things. They are a center-left neoliberal party, which isn't always great but it has it's perks. The Republicans no longer even have a party identity. As far as I can tell they are thoroughly corporatist and pro-wealthy. They pander to the military and to the working/middle classes then do nothing for them. When it comes to the environment or net neutrality their focus is purely on the private sector being able to squeeze as much money as possible and damn the consequences. They no longer concern themselves with fiscal conservatism and pick and choose what rights people ought to have.
It's really difficult for me to rationalize why people vote for them anymore. Are ~50% of Americans really that stupid? If you aren't making a six figure income, what attracts you to the Republican party? Is it guns? Are you okay with your standard of living falling across the board as long as you are sure your gun rights aren't being infringed? Serious question to someone who went to the polling booth and voted for Trump or one of the Republicans who supported this bill: Why?[/QUOTE]
If you believe in conspiracy theories about Obummer being a Kenyan black Muslim, or that a building with no basement supposedly has a secret rape dungeon built underneath it, and hate dem lie-berals with a burning enough passion that you don't care how much your government makes you bend over, you're probably going to keep voting for conservatives. And yes, I'm in complete agreement with you that people are that greedy and stupid.
Alright! Who's up for Great Depression part 2! :dead:
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;52940276]If you believe in conspiracy theories about Obummer being a Kenyan black Muslim, or that a building with no basement supposedly has a secret rape dungeon built underneath it, and hate dem lie-berals with a burning enough passion that you don't care how much your government makes you bend over, you're probably going to keep voting for conservatives. And yes, I'm in complete agreement with you that people are that greedy and stupid.[/QUOTE]
Greed I can understand. If you make enough money to benefit from Republican tax reform hijinx then you do you bud, I'm not going to convince you not to think about #1 when it comes to choosing your representatives. As for conspiracy theories, I'd just file that into people being stupid because it's essentially the same thing. If it's really just blind, ignorant raging against the liberal/Democratic machine then I guess there is some solace to be had in the fact that most Republicans end up voting for people that hurt them in the long run. The shame is that everyone is hurt in the long run by the Republicans.
[editline]2nd December 2017[/editline]
Republicans bundled in a plan to [URL="http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/senate-republicans-approve-plan-to-allow-drilling-in-arctic-refuge-with-tax-legislation/article/2642365"]allow drilling in the Arctic refuge[/URL] that Murkowski has been pursuing for years. You know, just in case you thought this bill couldn't get worse.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52940292]Greed I can understand. If you make enough money to benefit from Republican tax reform hijinx then you do you bud, I'm not going to convince you not to think about #1 when it comes to choosing your representatives. As for conspiracy theories, I'd just file that into people being stupid because it's essentially the same thing. If it's really just blind, ignorant raging against the liberal/Democratic machine then I guess there is some solace to be had in the fact that most Republicans end up voting for people that hurt them in the long run. The shame is that everyone is hurt in the long run by the Republicans.
[editline]2nd December 2017[/editline]
Republicans bundled in a plan to [URL="http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/senate-republicans-approve-plan-to-allow-drilling-in-arctic-refuge-with-tax-legislation/article/2642365"]allow drilling in the Arctic refuge[/URL] that Murkowski has been pursuing for years. You know, just in case you thought this bill couldn't get worse.[/QUOTE]
How can it even be considered a "tax bill" when it really seems like a "there are tax things but also a shitload of other small things in like the tens of percents of this bill" kind of situation.
It really seems like the legitimacy of something like this being allowed to pass should seriously be in question because it was drafted, by the looks of it, in a White House bathroom, was passed through in it's current state forcefully in a single sitting with complete refusal to review it's massive nature, and it includes everything from tax budgets to arctic drilling to fucking church political bullshit.(If that bit is still in, I'd be surprised if anyone knows what is in. It's a kinder egg bill.) This is ludicrous.
[editline]2nd December 2017[/editline]
Like, I know of adding riders to a bill, which R's are infamous for destroying bills with, but this is turning an already bad bill into a bus to agendaland it has so many riders.
[QUOTE=Xion21;52940321]How can it even be considered a "tax bill" when it really seems like a "there are tax things but also a shitload of other small things in like the tens of percents of this bill" kind of situation.
It really seems like the legitimacy of something like this being allowed to pass should seriously be in question because it was drafted, by the looks of it, in a White House bathroom, was passed through in it's current state forcefully in a single sitting with complete refusal to review it's massive nature, and it includes everything from tax budgets to arctic drilling to fucking church political bullshit.(If that bit is still in, I'd be surprised if anyone knows what is in. It's a kinder egg bill.) This is ludicrous.
[editline]2nd December 2017[/editline]
Like, I know of adding riders to a bill, which R's are infamous for destroying bills with, but this is turning an already bad bill into a bus to agendaland it has so many riders.[/QUOTE]
It was attached as a way to raise revenue. They project that $1 billion can be raised over 10 years, and "many more billions" after that. A dubious prospect given oil prices but it's a red herring anyway: this is the pork fat that encouraged Murkowski to go along with the bill. The NYT has an article talking about the other possible rebels.
[QUOTE]The votes for the bill by Susan Collins of Maine and John McCain and Jeff Flake of Arizona were particularly disheartening. Ms. Collins, who helped sink an effort to effectively repeal the A.C.A. in September, blithely voted for a tax bill that will leave a gaping hole in that law by repealing its requirement that most people have insurance or pay a penalty. She traded away her vote for an inadequate deduction for property taxes and empty promises from Mr. Trump and the majority leader, Mitch McConnell, that they would help shore up the A.C.A., which they have repeatedly tried to sabotage. Mr. McCain, who previously voted against tax cuts in the Bush era because they were heavily tilted in favor of the rich rather than the middle class, seemed unconcerned that this bill was even worse in that regard. Then there is Mr. Flake, who has spoken powerfully against Mr. Trump and who is not seeking re-election. He folded on the basis of vague assurances about protecting the Dreamers, young undocumented immigrants brought to the country as children.[/QUOTE]
[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/opinion/editorials/a-historic-tax-heist.html[/URL]
[editline]2nd December 2017[/editline]
The same Republicans who voted against the Obamacare repeal that would have seen 14 million people lose health insurance just voted for a tax reform bill that will see 13 million people lose health insurance and premiums rise by 10%.
It's okay though because [URL="http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/362838-senate-gop-repeals-obamacare-mandate"]they have a plan[/URL].
[QUOTE]While three Republican senators, John McCain (R-Ariz.), Susan Collins (R-Maine) and Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) defeated an ObamaCare repeal bill over the summer that included mandate repeal, this time they put aside their concerns.
Murkowski wrote that repealing the mandate didn’t hurt the structure of the health law, but allowed people the “freedom” to choose whether to enroll in the healthcare law,..
Collins said she had won a commitment from Trump and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to pass two bipartisan ObamaCare fixes before the end of the year. She hopes those bills will counteract the increase in premiums from mandate repeal.[/QUOTE]
Just trust Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell, two people who have never been described as untrustworthy by anyone.
We're fucked.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52940271]The Democrats at least occasionally stand for some principle or issue. They have an annoying authoritarian streak with guns that I'd like to see them step away from and I generally find liberal attempts at foreign policy to be naive at best but when it comes to things like technology, communication, the environment, education, entitlement programs, defense, income inequality, and workplace safety that are fairly consistent as a party in supporting these things. They are a center-left neoliberal party, which isn't always great but it has it's perks. The Republicans no longer even have a party identity. As far as I can tell they are thoroughly corporatist and pro-wealthy. They pander to the military and to the working/middle classes then do nothing for them. When it comes to the environment or net neutrality their focus is purely on the private sector being able to squeeze as much money as possible and damn the consequences. They no longer concern themselves with fiscal conservatism and pick and choose what rights people ought to have.
It's really difficult for me to rationalize why people vote for them anymore. Are ~50% of Americans really that stupid? If you aren't making a six figure income, what attracts you to the Republican party? Is it guns? Are you okay with your standard of living falling across the board as long as you are sure your gun rights aren't being infringed? Serious question to someone who went to the polling booth and voted for Trump or one of the Republicans who supported this bill: Why?[/QUOTE]
This post turned into one hell of a text wall, and I think it's a shame to waste all that effort, so
One of the biggest issues with the Republican party is how they maintain power. It's not so much they have 50% of American support, it's that they've spent the last sixtyodd years consolidating their power into a handful of gerrymandered single issue strongholds with wildly disproportionate voting power while simultaneously seeking to undermine and actively hinder the voting power of any unwanted and disagreeable demographics
They reinforce that disproportionate voting power by actively fucking over their voter base and passing the blame on to the Democrats while rallying their base around only a handful of key issues that they've spent the last few decades hyping up the importance of. Republican politics are deeply invested in propaganda tactics. Despite the fact that they're responsible for the [I]vast[/I] amount of economic strife the US has suffered in the last hundred years, they've always managed to skitter out from under the blame and pass it to the Democrats with these propaganda tactics. They've tanked the economy repeatedly through ramrodding supply side economics and mass deregulation alongside massive tax cuts for the wealthy and the corporations, but somehow it always manages to be the Democrats' fault because of things like welfare leeches and immigrant job thieves. The fragile economy for the Republicans is never attributed to things like the wealthy getting a free pass on taxes while everyone else shoulders the burden which completely tanks the spending power of the average American and is not-so-gradually annihilating the American middle class while the already wealthy just get wealthier at their expense, it's somehow attributed to the Democrats are taxing those poor innocent corporations out of business and taking away everything the wealthy worked so hard for to pay for enormously(exaggeratedly) expensive social programs that only benefit those pesky immigrants
If it's even remotely beneficial to the average American and/or doesn't give large corporations and the wealthy a leg up on everyone else, you can bet your ass the Republicans are going to do everything in their power to undermine it at every turn and push their propaganda to the breaking point to make sure it appears in the most negative light possible. [url=https://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/6tm9h5/cmv_over_the_next_1020_years_the_biggest_threat/dlm31u9/?context=3]This is reflected in Republican voting habits[/url]. Regulation of any kind is painted as big government which is always automatically bad. The reasoning changes depending on what the regulation is. Most often it's painted as an issue of states rights(Which they will conveniently ignore when it comes to giving large companies a leg up). Any kind of taxation is painted as evil and the again they tend towards the big government line, usually with some extra flavoring as the Democrats trying to steal Americans' hard earned money and give it to those filthy immigrants, while at the same time they'll gleefully cut any and all taxes for their wealthy and corporate benefactors while shunting the burden off on to their voter base. Federal spending is always painted as wasteful and you get the same lines about the government wasting American tax dollars, but mysteriously it becomes a good thing if it's subsidizing something like privatization of just about anything, which tends to tie in with their hatred of any regulation. In the Republican world, corporations can do no wrong, and it's always better to give them money and let them self regulate. You can always trust a private corporation, but for some reason public servants are never given the same trust
There's also the religious issue. This is one of the biggest hot button issues the Republicans use to keep a stranglehold on their voter base and ensure they can keep taking advantage of them for generations to come. Republican candidates typically have a very strong religious values streak in their public image, built off of the very specific kind of evangelical Christianity that prevails in the rural United States. The Republicans have invested a lot into making sure most of their voters are single issue voters, and religion is their favorite single issue, which ties in nicely with their investment in active propaganda. Using the religious angle, it's easy for them to turn their base even further against the Democrats while simultaneously drawing focus away from things like their disastrous economic policies and flagrant corporate favoritism. This is why things like gay marriage and abortion are so frequently such an important part of Republican campaigns. It lets them sidestep more important issues and immediately score brownie points with their base while throwing mud at the opposition. Since Democratic candidates tend to be more forward thinking on social issues, it's easy for Republicans to paint themselves as the more moral and godly choice. By pretending to stand for good Christian traditional family values, they can just about automatically sway a particular religious demographic. As an even bigger bonus for them in recent years, Islam has become a similar hot button issue, which also plays nicely into the [I]other[/I] Republican hot button issue of security
Security, military, and patriotism are another favored Republican propaganda tool which ties in well with the religious component. The next big part of Republican campaigns you'll most often see next to the traditional Christian family values is good old fashioned American patriotism, and I think it's one of the more disgustingly exploitative parts of how the Republican party operates. The Republican party prizes the military greatly, and no part of the military is more valuable to them than the average American soldier as a political prop, and they adore tying them in with the religious angle. I'm sure everyone is familiar with slogans like 'god bless our troops'. A very particular kind of 'patriotism'(Blind nationalism) is greatly stressed by the Republican party and a core component of that patriotism is support and respect for the military and the troops, with a strong emphasis on national security. This turns into another propaganda tool to paint the Democrats in a negative light and further entrap their voter base in the party. Democratic candidates are seldom in favor of more military spending, which is easily twisted into them not caring about the security of Americans, and Democratic candidates are far more likely to raise criticisms against the military and call the more warmongering aspects of the Republicans into question, which reinforces the narrative of them not caring about national security and can also be twisted into them disrespecting the troops
The emphasis on gun rights has absolutely nothing to do with their respect for the second amendment nor the rights of individuals, it's more a matter of convenience and yet more propaganda to demonize the other side. Of the voter base they've cultivated and pigeonholed, a significant portion are either active or former military, and rural individuals to whom gun rights are important for reasons like personal defense and security. This is one of the most powerful issues for them because the Democratic party has a completely miserable rapport with gun owners and more often than not paints them as a bunch of backwards hicks who don't know any better or a bunch of paranoid, violent psychotics. This coupled with the Democratic party's history of anti-gun candidates consistently demonstrating an almost total lack on the subject makes gun rights another key piece of leverage to keep the Republican's cultivated demographic from straying away
And of course, they reinforce all of this by consistently seeking to undermine things like education by making it either prohibitively expensive, dysfunctional underfunded, or simply hijacked as another propaganda tool. On top of that, there's a constant Republican narrative about the evils of big government. On the whole, I think it's less about 50% of Americans being stupid and more about them being misled, uneducated, deliberately misguided, and heavily exploited. The Republican party are a disgustingly predatory institution, and the worst part of it all is they've managed to convince their prey that they're better off being exploited by them than helped by anyone else
[QUOTE=Potus;52940347][media]https://twitter.com/TitusNation/status/936736961145876485[/media][/QUOTE]
Shit. ACA mandate pulled? Does this mean that I lose my insurance? Christ I better get a special enrollment mandate.
So what are the chances that when this gets to Trump's desk, he vetoes it in a fit of dementia-riddled rage about the investigation?
[QUOTE=Revenge282;52940363]So what are the chances that when this gets to Trump's desk, he vetoes it in a fit of dementia-riddled rage about the investigation?[/QUOTE]
None, and thinking like this is weirdly and dangerously optimistic.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52940365]None, and thinking like this is weirdly and dangerously optimistic.[/QUOTE]
*a whoosh is heard overhead*
[QUOTE=Revenge282;52940366]*a whoosh is heard overhead*[/QUOTE]
Fine try and pass it off as a joke, a phenomenally shitty one at that.
I mean I don’t know what there is to joke about here other than the fact that people thought this wasn’t going to pass
[QUOTE=BryndenRivers;52940369]
Nothing matters.
[/QUOTE]
Why this insane rush to increase the deficit by $1 Trillion by the end of 2018?
Does something special happen in 2018?
Kinda seems like they're scared...
Hmm....
[QUOTE=Gbps;52940380]Why this insane rush to increase the deficit by $1 Trillion by the end of 2018?
Does something special happen in 2018?
Kinda seems like they're scared...
Hmm....[/QUOTE]
But let’s just hypothesize and say the democrats seize total, 100% control of the house and senate, and demand a repeal of the law.
All Trump has to do is say “No” and it’s the end of that. He’d still have total executive authority over the passing or repealing of bills and I don’t exactly know why people forget that. Same stuff happened with Obama’s term when the Republicans had house/senate majority
It's clear the representatives don't represent the people anymore and maybe it's time to put some fear in them already?
And the last ounce of moral and democratic principles war buried.
Hope the Reps bleed during 2018 midterms.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52940386]But let’s just hypothesize and say the democrats seize total, 100% control of the house and senate, and demand a repeal of the law.
All Trump has to do is say “No” and it’s the end of that. [B]He’d still have total executive authority over the passing or repealing of bills[/B] and I don’t exactly know why people forget that. Same stuff happened with Obama’s term when the Republicans had house/senate majority[/QUOTE]
Because he doesn't. Congress can override ANY bill the President vetoes if there's a two-thirds majority in both houses. Unfortunately, only 8 Republican senators are up for reelection in 2018. The best we can possibly get then is a 56-44 majority, which effectively means this is in place until 2020.
Is there any precedent for reversing an entire legislative history of a particular President?
If Trump is found to have committed treason, surely this shit can't stay.
[QUOTE=Potus;52940347][media]https://twitter.com/TitusNation/status/936736961145876485[/media][/QUOTE]
Comment section claims that the Johnson Amendment (used to prevent non-profit organizations such as churches from political endorsements or oppositions as an intended separation of church and state, among other things) would be abolished if this passed as well based on another page.
Not sure how valid it is, but considering Trump has complained for years that religious organizations should be allowed to be political, it's not impossible that they're that hellbent on doing this.
You know, the phrase 'Republicans are evil' is becoming less and less ambiguous every day now.
[QUOTE=OpethRockr55;52940422]Because he doesn't. Congress can override ANY bill the President vetoes if there's a two-thirds majority in both houses. Unfortunately, only 8 Republican senators are up for reelection in 2018. The best we can possibly get then is a 56-44 majority, which effectively means this is in place until 2020.[/QUOTE]
So another 2 years of obstructionist,- political,- deadlocking standstill only with the difference of a Rep Prez/Dem Congress and new horrible legislation as an icing on the shit-pile while the country goes down the shitter at an unprecedented pace.
[i]Great progress.[/i]
How come you guys didn't overthrow the government 3 times by now...
Shitty fucking thing is impeachment just moves down the list of deplorable assholes. This is effectively a problem we can only vote out.
I want more Tester vlogs
[media]https://twitter.com/SenatorTester/status/936748480000921600[/media]
[editline]2nd December 2017[/editline]
The private jet tax break is going to be something we hear a lot about going into 2018, it's just so perfectly disgusting
[QUOTE=Richardroth;52940287]Alright! Who's up for Great Depression part 2! :dead:[/QUOTE]
Trump would be like "Many people are saying this is the greatest depression ever - where would you be without your president (me!)?"
"fuck it we'll fix it in comittee."
next time the senate can't do that, they have to pass exactly what comes out of committee
"TOP 10 PRANKS TAKEN TO FAR - Watchmojo"
But seriously, this is a joke right, why can you guys still just let this happen, surely this is cause for revolt, some from of protest, ANYTHING. Your government is corrupt and actively trying to hurt you.
Welp, time to grab a bugout bag, new air rifle/sling shot, and get fit. Because fuck this, I'm going innawoods.
Our government is not only corrupt and inept but they are unprofessional. Do other foreign systems work like this, massive scrambling so desperate that there are illegible handwritten pages of law that will cause a 1 trillion dollar deficit?
I find a new way to be disgusted of my government every week.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;52940682]Our government is not only corrupt and inept but they are unprofessional. Do other foreign systems work like this, massive scrambling so desperate that there are illegible handwritten pages of law that will cause a 1 trillion dollar deficit?
I find a new way to be disgusted of my government every week.[/QUOTE]
And enough people voted for these people to make this happen. All so they can say "fuck libtards*
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