Chelsea Manning 'may sue' over gender dysphoria therapy - Polidicks

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44857975]Did you just compare hair loss to fucking gender dysphoria. Holy shit argument of the century.[/QUOTE] I compared the cosmetics. Also in retrospect that is a dumb argument, but my head looks very disfigured without hair, I need to get It shaved every few years for doctors to check it for cancerous tissue and just a general checkup because it's very prone to infections and the likes as it is really sensitive. When it gets shaved people stare, gawk and avoid me because it encompasses my whole head and looks confronting, I can't imagine going bald, living every day like that gets you down, I'm not comparing it to anyone with hairloss, sorry. Also if you want a sample of the depression it causes, go on hair loss forums. I once made the mistake of going on them, it's a really toxic environment, even if what they have is what you deem as minor.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44857975]Did you just compare hair loss to fucking gender dysphoria. Holy shit argument of the century.[/QUOTE] Hey everyone, lets tier ailments, because depression caused by a receding hairline is nothing compared to a depression caused by looking in the mirror and realizing you do not have breasts. [QUOTE=Paige;44858193]Identifying as a woman makes you one. Full stop. Hormones and surgery are there to correct the abnormalities that caused one body to form with the opposite sex of their brain. It's a correction surgery like getting an extra finger removed, etc. Please don't call it cosmetic because it just screams "I don't know what I'm talking about!"[/QUOTE] I strongly disagree. Identifying as Elvis does not make me Elvis. I may wear a white suit and people may adress me as "The King" out of personal respect or apathy, but it does not mean I am Elvis. I may get [i]corrective[/i] surgery and a supplementary diet to look more like Elvis, but it still does not make me Elvis.

[QUOTE=V12US;44858328]I strongly disagree. Identifying as Elvis does not make me Elvis. I may wear a white suit and people may adress me as "The King" out of personal respect or apathy, but it does not mean I am Elvis. I may get [i]corrective[/i] surgery and a supplementary diet to look more like Elvis, but it still does not make me Elvis.[/QUOTE] Gender Identity disorder is a real problem that happens due to the child not developing properly in the womb. Much like how smoking during pregnancy can cause brain damage to the baby, or certain genetic diseases may be heritable, this results in the child developing essentially a female brain while the body develops as male. The brain then finds itself at great unease because it is controlling what is essentially the wrong body. Sometimes this causes a variety of problems such as depression and attempted suicide. Corrective surgery and hormones help to reduce this unease and reduce the risk of depression and suicide. Humans are a sexually dimorphic (two sexes) species. Around 99% of the time humans develop into males or females, but there is a tiny fraction whereby this process is either incomplete or flawed, with Gender Identity Disorder being one such one where the human did not fully develop into a physical male or female as originally intended. Thankfully with the rise of gene therapy, a better understanding of the human body, etc this might not even be a thing in about 50 years, since by that point people will be able to spot the warning signs early (whenever heritable or what causes it during development in the womb) and quickly take action to prevent it.

[QUOTE=V12US;44858328]I strongly disagree. Identifying as Elvis does not make me Elvis. I may wear a white suit and people may adress me as "The King" out of personal respect or apathy, but it does not mean I am Elvis. I may get [i]corrective[/i] surgery and a supplementary diet to look more like Elvis, but it still does not make me Elvis.[/QUOTE] Whenever someone pulls out the "I can identify as an X but that doesn't make me X" argument, that pretty much cements they have no idea of anything about transgenderism. Elvis is a new one however, so you are at least creative if not entirely smart on this subject.

[QUOTE=V12US;44858328] I strongly disagree. Identifying as Elvis does not make me Elvis. I may wear a white suit and people may adress me as "The King" out of personal respect or apathy, but it does not mean I am Elvis. I may get [i]corrective[/i] surgery and a supplementary diet to look more like Elvis, but it still does not make me Elvis.[/QUOTE] Hey, this argument can be legitimate when there's a biological format of human being called an "elvis", when "elvis" is a gender, when you can see that a human is in an "elvis" form during in-womb development. Or actually no, you're just a [B]dick[/B].

[QUOTE=V12US;44858328]Hey everyone, lets tier ailments, because depression caused by a receding hairline is nothing compared to a depression caused by looking in the mirror and realizing you do not have breasts.[/QUOTE] Yes this is true. Things like this shouldn't really be tiered because it's sort of personal/subjective. People think they're ugly and it massively effects their life, whilst other people aren't affected by it. Can't get the hot girls they want, the job, or w/e. For some people, this effects them a lot whilst other people aren't so bothered. The usual response 'Deal with it.' Short of facial reconstruction, which they would have to pay (a lot) for, 'dealing with it' is about all they can really do.

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44858602]Yes this is true. Things like this shouldn't really be tiered because it's sort of personal/subjective. People think they're ugly and it massively effects their life, whilst other people aren't affected by it. Can't get the hot girls they want, the job, or w/e. For some people, this effects them a lot whilst other people aren't so bothered. The usual response 'Deal with it.' Short of facial reconstruction, which they would have to pay (a lot) for, 'dealing with it' is about all they can really do.[/QUOTE] Problem is you can't really define or give depression a value based on its cause. Depression is depression, as you said it can be mild or strong depending upon the individual. People commit suicide because they think they like ugly, it's not uncommon at all. But they are told to suck it up, while people who may have gender dysmorphia may not suicide from their depression and get treatment. It's too subjective.

[QUOTE=V12US;44858328]Hey everyone, lets tier ailments, because depression caused by a receding hairline is nothing compared to a depression caused by looking in the mirror and realizing you do not have breasts.[/quote] While you may have a point about the tiers a man looking at the mirror and seeing himself go bald isn't going to want to make him end his life and have no hope. Now a woman losing her hair, especially when it's caused by a body she's not built for, is very psychologically damaging. It's just another reminder to add to the the list of hormonal changes we don't want/should not be happening. This also applies to broader shoulders, body hair, deepening of the voice, more obvious adam's apple, you name it. It's just little bits and pieces that build up and make gender dysphoria stronger. And, btw, gender dysphoria is nothing compared to post-hairloss depression. [quote]I strongly disagree. Identifying as Elvis does not make me Elvis. I may wear a white suit and people may adress me as "The King" out of personal respect or apathy, but it does not mean I am Elvis. I may get [i]corrective[/i] surgery and a supplementary diet to look more like Elvis, but it still does not make me Elvis.[/QUOTE] Oh boy this argument again. Allow me to educate you on what exactly happens with the so called "corrective supplementary and surgery." MtF HRT includes the following: -Breast growth, the size of which is determined by your genetics. -Decreased libido, meanwhile developing a female sex drive (and we can achieve a female orgasm) -Body fat redistributes to the shape of a woman's figure. -Muscle development reduced. -The skin changes, including softening of the skin. -Body hair is significantly stunted and is lighter in color. -Body odor and sweat production change (I.E. armpits don't stink like a motherfucker) -Veins become less prominent. -Ocular changes, including distinction of colors (women can see different shades of color better than men and estrogen is why). Now that doesn't sound like a woman to you? If not you must be one blind SOB. And for a little more NSFW (and SFW) information (thanks reddit): -Men and women butts smell significantly different. On MTF HRT, our butts stop smelling like a guy's butt and more like a woman's butt. -After going through the changes myself, I noticed I've become much more susceptible to the cold. Even before I used to be able to tolerate 30 degree weather in a shirt and shorts. Now I can't handle under 70 without becoming an ice sickle. Bear in mind, this is all from taking [b]natural synthetic hormones.[/b] This isn't some man crafted miracle of science. It's just hormones that we take to stop our body's natural testosterone and raise our natural estrogen levels.

what shades of color is more 'distinctive' or what shades can you see that you couldn't before. just curious because i've genuinely never heard of that before

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44859031]what shades of color is more 'distinctive' or what shades can you see that you couldn't before. just curious because i've genuinely never heard of that before[/QUOTE] Well, for example, if someone were to give me a color palette complete with many different varients of colors most men couldn't differentiate between two shades of red that look identical. But a woman can see the difference a little more clearly. [editline]alsdlsd[/editline] From a more personal experience: The first time I ever bought makeup I noticed that they have a ton of different colors of lip gloss, eye shadow, nail polish, you name it. And a lot of them were identical yet different. Prior to transitioning I don't exactly recall being able to tell the difference. In fact, I'm sure they looked exactly the same. After transitioning I noticed how I could differentiate them just a teeny bit better. [editline]Ldls[/editline] Yes, outlawpickle, I'm dumb even though I'm speaking from experience. Bra-fucking-vo.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44858493]Gender Identity disorder is a real problem that happens due to the child not developing properly in the womb. Much like how smoking during pregnancy can cause brain damage to the baby, or certain genetic diseases may be heritable, this results in the child developing essentially a female brain while the body develops as male. The brain then finds itself at great unease because it is controlling what is essentially the wrong body. Sometimes this causes a variety of problems such as depression and attempted suicide. Corrective surgery and hormones help to reduce this unease and reduce the risk of depression and suicide. Humans are a sexually dimorphic (two sexes) species. Around 99% of the time humans develop into males or females, but there is a tiny fraction whereby this process is either incomplete or flawed, with Gender Identity Disorder being one such one where the human did not fully develop into a physical male or female as originally intended. Thankfully with the rise of gene therapy, a better understanding of the human body, etc this might not even be a thing in about 50 years, since by that point people will be able to spot the warning signs early (whenever heritable or what causes it during development in the womb) and quickly take action to prevent it.[/QUOTE] Did you just say that Gender Dysphoria comes from a child developing a female brain in the womb? Can you even cite anything (besides Wikipedia) that states that as fact? Because as far as I know, noone is sure of what causes Gender Dysphoria. It's Gender Dysphoria too, if you're going to advocate for LGBT rights why don't you call it by its less offensive moniker now.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;44860125]Did you just say that Gender Dysphoria comes from a child developing a female brain in the womb? Can you even cite anything (besides Wikipedia) that states that as fact? Because as far as I know, noone is sure of what causes Gender Dysphoria. It's Gender Dysphoria too, if you're going to advocate for LGBT rights why don't you call it by its less offensive moniker now.[/QUOTE] Refer to this. [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44855115]To further back this up let me explain. Not many people recognize it but being transgender is actually a birth defect. When we all start in the womb we are females. If the fetus is destined to become male, there's two stages where the fetus is fed huge doses of testosterone. One of the doses goes to the brain, and the other goes to the body. For male-to-females, the brain doesn't get the dose to the brain (or very little) while the body gets the normal amount. This causes the brain to develop as female. Now what do I mean by that? Well, the brains of females and males are structurally different. The brains of transgender individuals match those to the gender they identify. Thus a transgirl's brain will resemble a cisgender female's brain. For transmen, the dose to the brain comes but the body doesn't get the same treatment thus causing the brain to develop male but the body developing female.[/QUOTE] I don't have the exact links but the information I gathered this from was from actual studies. They're not exactly [b][i]confirmed.[/i][/b] As it stands now, it's only evidence to support claims. But it seems to make the most logical sense.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44859049] Yes, outlawpickle, I'm dumb even though I'm speaking from experience. Bra-fucking-vo.[/QUOTE] Yes, you're an idiot for suggesting males are incapable of noticing different shades of colors. Just because you never paid attention prior to becoming a woman doesn't mean every other male is just as clueless. [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44860543]It's scientifically proven. [url]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/09/120907-men-women-see-differently-science-health-vision-sex/[/url] Get rekt.[/QUOTE] This is laughable you think you've proven that all men are worse than all women at distinguishing colors.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;44860125]Did you just say that Gender Dysphoria comes from a child developing a female brain in the womb? Can you even cite anything (besides Wikipedia) that states that as fact? Because as far as I know, noone is sure of what causes Gender Dysphoria. It's Gender Dysphoria too, if you're going to advocate for LGBT rights why don't you call it by its less offensive moniker now.[/QUOTE] what's your explanation for it then? so far our best idea is that its a developmental disorder, and that it could be heritable

I remember when Facepunch thought it was absolutely hilarious that Manning wanted to be a women, whats changed?

[QUOTE=Midas22;44860445]I remember when Facepunch thought it was absolutely hilarious that Manning wanted to be a women, whats changed?[/QUOTE] I still think its stupid and shouldnt be allowed. Is his life going to end if it doesnt happen? Most likely not.

[QUOTE=outlawpickle;44860363]Yes, you're an idiot for suggesting males are incapable of noticing different shades of colors. Just because you never paid attention prior to becoming a woman doesn't mean every other male is just as clueless.[/QUOTE] It's scientifically proven. [url]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/09/120907-men-women-see-differently-science-health-vision-sex/[/url] Get rekt.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;44860467]I still think its stupid and shouldnt be allowed. Is [B][I]his[/I][/B] life going to end if it doesnt happen? Most likely not.[/QUOTE] Wow was that a Douche thing to say.

[QUOTE=outlawpickle;44860363]Yes, you're an idiot for suggesting males are incapable of noticing different shades of colors. Just because you never paid attention prior to becoming a woman doesn't mean every other male is just as clueless.[/QUOTE] in her defense she didn't really suggest that males are 'incapable' it was just that the hormone therapy made the differences in shades look more noticeable.

[QUOTE=outlawpickle;44860363]This is laughable you think you've proven that all men are worse than all women at distinguishing colors.[/QUOTE] It's laughable how you're ignoring scientific proof because you don't want to look wrong. It's okay though, being wrong isn't all bad. [QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44860699]in her defense she didn't really suggest that males are 'incapable' it was just that the hormone therapy made the differences in shades look more noticeable.[/QUOTE] And this. There's a difference between saying women can differentiate colors better and someone being incapable of doing so.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44855345]Alright guys check it: the "oh it costs money" trick isn't going to work, military doctors are already getting paid, regardless of if they do surgery or not, you're literally ONLY going to pay for supplies used, which is fractions of fractions of a penny for every american. If you're arguing about costs you are literally the scummiest person on the planet, especially when it will cost next to nothing to get this done. At the same time: the "oh it's a life saving procedure", isn't true either. If she didn't get this, her body would continue to function, yes she'd be depressed, but she'd be functioning. This isn't going to save her life, this is going to make her comfortable, two COMPLETELY different things. Do I approve of her getting the surgery in a military prison as opposed to the federal one? No, she was already offered the help and turned it down, i'm pretty sure they don't have any proof of her "not being safe" in a civilian prison. Do I approve of not giving her the surgery because "ugh, trans people are gross", no, these things happen, and we've got to help where we can.[/QUOTE] Did you people miss this post or something? The argument of "she is under the care of the government they have to provide for her" doesn't exactly apply when it is a quality of life thing. It wouldn't "save her life" and the fact that some people are [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1394938&p=44853912&viewfull=1#post44853912]comparing her situation to being denied insulin as a diabetic[/url] is incredibly terrible.

It's pretty clear by now, 8 pages in, that this issue is extremely personal to a lot of people, and most of you guys are arguing out of either personal hatred or because you identify with Chelsea. Some of you guys have made it extremely clear that you are intolerant of transgender people, while others (I'm looking at you milkandcooki and codemaster) have made it clear that you believe that this issue is a trans issue, which it isn't. You are arguing that she should get the treatment "because it's life saving" or for other reasons, but when you get right down to facts the other prisoners who have serious depression and other mental problems get no such care, based on that alone your bias is very clear. You don't care if a male prisoner hangs himself with a sheet after being jailed for 20 years, because he isn't transgender. You have flat out refused to answer any question relating to why Manning should get this care when other prisoners wouldn't and just keep alluding to some unspoken "fact" that trans issues are more important than other people's. ([I]You can't POSSIBLY be comparing X to transgender THAT'S SO OFFENSIVE. NOTHING could compare to transgender issues, they are THE most important kind of issue![/I]) I honestly hope she does get the treatment, and since she's famous and has a good lawyer we all know she will, that still doesn't make it right. It will be wrong for her to receive extra treatment [B]solely[/B] because she is transgender and the state will want to safe face. If she were literally any other prisoner petitioning for this kind of treatment it would be denied. That's why I think this is wrong, and both sides of this argument have said some pretty presumptuous and offensive things.

[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;44860718]The argument of "she is under the care of the government they have to provide for her" doesn't exactly apply when it is a quality of life thing. It wouldn't "save her life" and the fact that some people are [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1394938&p=44853912&viewfull=1#post44853912]comparing her situation to being denied insulin as a diabetic[/url] is incredibly terrible.[/QUOTE] I believe not just a "Quality of Life" Situation. If people get mental therapy in prison then i see no reason why she shouldn't, i really believe that everyone should have the right level of treatment depending on their need. In the UK, Prisoners are entitled to the same benefits as in the NHS so it might be a difference in culture. Its a whole different world over here after all. I don't know so much about the procedure, so i don't know if its costly.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44854963]it's a physical deformity to her because she has a mental disorder and should be treated for that rather than throwing expensive surgery and hormones at the problem.[/QUOTE] Instead of treating her in the best way possible let's treat her in a way thats basically proven to not work for trans people at all. What's next, gay aversion therapy??

[QUOTE=joes33431;44852649]i love how people think that it's okay to take nice things away from other people because [I]they themselves[/I] don't get them. here's a better solution: nationalize health insurance and give everyone access to free health/psych care. wow amazing[/QUOTE] ssshush you, shhush true universal healthcare will probably never happen here anyways, just more insurance based approaches i think the problem is that this person is clearly mentally unstable in general (not saying transgendered people are mentally ill, just this one) and really needs theropy before any drastic measures like hormones and surgery are considered. also since she's serving a life sentence there's the whole "you are being punished" thing going on there

[QUOTE=V12US;44857458]How is it not cosmetic? Chopping off one's genitals and chugging a bucket of hormone pills does not transform one into a woman. Your DNA doesn't change, your sex stays the same. It's an operation meant to change the look of a person to what they feel they should look like. Pretty much the definition of cosmetic surgery.[/QUOTE] What's your damage, dude? So do you get off by saying "sure, you may dress and act like a girl but you will never be a REAL girl!!!" Or what? Like, what the hell are you trying to achieve by saying these things? Whatever, the DNA will stay the same and the fact that a trans person was born with different chromosomes, but who cares? If I was trans I'd feel terrible if people like you kept insisting I wasn't a REAL woman or man. [editline]20th May 2014[/editline] Haha nevermind there's no point in even giving you my time because you in ironically used the "what if I wanted to identify as HYPERBOLE?? check make, s-social justice warriors!!" argument. And no, I'm not going to "respect" your disgusting bigoted opinions. You're the epitome of transphobic.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44860958]What's your damage, dude? So do you get off by saying "sure, you may dress and act like a girl but you will never be a REAL girl!!!" Or what? Like, what the hell are you trying to achieve by saying these things? Whatever, the DNA will stay the same and the fact that a trans person was born with different chromosomes, but who cares? If I was trans I'd feel terrible if people like you kept insisting I wasn't a REAL woman or man. [editline]20th May 2014[/editline] Haha nevermind there's no point in even giving you my time because you in ironically used the "what if I wanted to identify as HYPERBOLE?? check make, s-social justice warriors!!" argument. And no, I'm not going to "respect" your disgusting bigoted opinions. You're the epitome of transphobic.[/QUOTE] the only real thing v12us does in these types of threads is that he acts like a disrespectful twit and he expects to be taken seriously. [QUOTE=Gray Altoid;44860718]Did you people miss this post or something? The argument of "she is under the care of the government they have to provide for her" doesn't exactly apply when it is a quality of life thing. It wouldn't "save her life" and the fact that some people are [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1394938&p=44853912&viewfull=1#post44853912"]comparing her situation to being denied insulin as a diabetic[/URL] is incredibly terrible.[/QUOTE] people can't 'get over' gender dysphoria on a whim. do you tell people to 'get over' physical disabilities or wounds? no. both are issues that require attention.

[QUOTE=Midas22;44860445]I remember when Facepunch thought it was absolutely hilarious that Manning wanted to be a women, whats changed?[/QUOTE] The morons that posted that stuff are probably too busy playing videogames to visit this thread. You've been here since 08. You should know that popular threads are filled with garbage kneejerk posts for the first few pages.

[QUOTE=V12US;44858328] I strongly disagree. Identifying as Elvis does not make me Elvis. I may wear a white suit and people may adress me as "The King" out of personal respect or apathy, but it does not mean I am Elvis. I may get [i]corrective[/i] surgery and a supplementary diet to look more like Elvis, but it still does not make me Elvis.[/QUOTE] That argument doesn't really hold up considering there's a large difference between identifying as another specific human being with their own personal identity and identifying as another sex/gender all together.

I'm guessing that people act this way toward trans issues because they're probably so insecure about their sexuality that even the IDEA of a man becoming a woman makes them upset. I really wish this backwards ass "MACHO TRUE MAN BINARY GENDERS ONLY" attitude would just disappear.