Chelsea Manning 'may sue' over gender dysphoria therapy - Polidicks

[QUOTE=frozensoda;44854634]This is kind of close to the reason I think it's morally wrong, but not really "I" but more everyone who's in a position like mine. But again, I just think it's wrong that she gets it while others who aren't criminals don't [B]my problem is not that she's getting help, she should get help, everyone should get help when they need it and until everyone can get help it's morally wrong for criminals to get better care than law abiding citizens.[/B] I don't know how else to say that I am [B]not[/B] upset about her getting care, I'm upset that criminals have a better standard of care than poor people. None of that means she shouldn't actually get the care in the end [I]just that i think it's morally wrong when put in the context of the entire country[/I] and also in context of other criminals who have other serious mental dysfunctions themselves. They don't get this kind of care in a lot of cases, and they certainly don't have a high priced attorney to fight for them. I hope that for once just this one time you people as a whole and specifically milkandcooki take off the glasses that make you think I'm some kind of redneck bigot and actually read and understand what I am saying.[/QUOTE] if you really want a simple answer: being in prison is radically different than not being in prison. you become the direct responsibility of the government. it's their job to look after you. you have access to these resources outside of prison - you're just under, say, under a stricter teacher in prison.

in american prisons you have practically no freedom in regards to these things. outside of prison you have the ability to go to another state/country for better care, better access to available schemes that could help you get these things etc. (not to say that it's so easy but it's at least possible) whereas in prison it's the government's direct responsibility to uphold your human and civil rights and care for you

Manning is never going to get what he wants. Literally nobody in any position to grant him that is willing to eat the shit sandwich that is "taxpayer money spent to give gay traitor in prison a sex change". It doesn't matter that it's the right thing to do...it's never going to happen. The only way he sees a sex change operation is if we elect a president that is a real liberal (not fake Obama liberal) that grants the pardon he deserves and gets him out of prison.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44854855]Manning is never going to get what he wants. Literally nobody in any position to grant him that is willing to eat the shit sandwich that is "taxpayer money spent to give gay traitor in prison a sex change". It doesn't matter that it's the right thing to do...it's never going to happen. The only way he sees a sex change operation is if we elect a president that is a real liberal (not fake Obama liberal) that grants the pardon he deserves and gets him out of prison.[/QUOTE] she* tyvm

[QUOTE=Paige;44854866]she* tyvm[/QUOTE] Disagree. He's a dude who basically [I]asked[/I] people to refer to him as a woman. Nothing else has changed, legal or otherwise. I'm totally on board with it once that does change.

[QUOTE=frozensoda;44854634]This is kind of close to the reason I think it's morally wrong, but not really "I" but more everyone who's in a position like mine. But again, I just think it's wrong that she gets it while others who aren't criminals don't [B]my problem is not that she's getting help, she should get help, everyone should get help when they need it and until everyone can get help it's morally wrong for criminals to get better care than law abiding citizens.[/B] I don't know how else to say that I am [B]not[/B] upset about her getting care, I'm upset that criminals have a better standard of care than poor people. None of that means she shouldn't actually get the care in the end [I]just that i think it's morally wrong when put in the context of the entire country[/I] and also in context of other criminals who have other serious mental dysfunctions themselves. They don't get this kind of care in a lot of cases, and they certainly don't have a high priced attorney to fight for them. [B]I hope that for once just this one time you people as a whole and specifically milkandcooki take off the glasses that make you think I'm some kind of redneck bigot and actually read and understand what I am saying.[/B][/QUOTE] and no one said that, cut the victim complex bullshit. we already explained why they get the treatment in prison and not in public. It was you who kept saying how its wrong that she gets help because you can afford it.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44854907]Disagree. He's a dude who basically [I]asked[/I] people to refer to him as a woman. Nothing else has changed, legal or otherwise.[/QUOTE] Gender is personal and internally manifested - you are wrong to presume Chelsea's gender at all, let alone deny her already-stated identity.

[QUOTE=Paige;44854331]it's not just a damn surgery. it's not about "comfort" in the way you're thinking about either. its more or less a physical deformity she's trying to get corrected.[/QUOTE] it's a physical deformity to her because she has a mental disorder and should be treated for that rather than throwing expensive surgery and hormones at the problem.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44854963]it's a physical deformity to her because she has a mental disorder and should be treated for that rather than throwing expensive surgery and hormones at the problem.[/QUOTE] The "mental disorder" is dysphoria and can actually be treated by throwing expensive surgery and hormones at it!

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44854919]and no one said that, cut the victim complex bullshit. we already explained why they get the treatment in prison and not in public. It was you who kept saying how its wrong that she gets help because you can afford it.[/QUOTE] I loathe threads like these but i'm just gonna interject and say what the fuck do you mean, "cut the victim complex bullshit" literally half the fucking thread is about who's had it worse than others, and how "my friend X" deals with depression

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44854963]it's a physical deformity to her because she has a mental disorder and should be treated for that rather than throwing expensive surgery and hormones at the problem.[/QUOTE] hate to tell you bud, but atm there is no way to correct it due to how your brain forms. [editline]19th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Laferio;44854977]I loathe threads like these but i'm just gonna interject and say what the fuck do you mean, "cut the victim complex bullshit" literally half the fucking thread is about who's had it worse than others, and how "my friend X" deals with depression[/QUOTE] because shes saying we are just ignoring her and treating her like a redneck when were not. we are merely saying she is being selfish and doesn't understand why prisoners get free healthcare.

Tricare won't pay for it, it's an elective therapy under tricare. Case closed.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44854978]hate to tell you bud, but atm there is no way to correct it due to how your brain forms.[/QUOTE] does that mean we should not be taking strides towards helping people with other mental disorders such as being a trasngender or schizophrenic?

[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;44854931]Gender is personal and internally manifested - you are wrong to presume Chelsea's gender at all, let alone deny her already-stated identity.[/QUOTE] ...Uh, no, gender has an extremely clear biological and physical, external manifestation, along with the internal manifestation. In his case, the two are not aligned. I just feel like there's more to it than "because I say so". I could go around telling people "I internally manifest as a horse, and you should all refer to me as 'Seabiscuit' from now on", but nobody is going to, because I don't have hooves or a tail. I believe he feels that he is female, and I think he should get his sex change therapy so his body can reflect that and it doesn't make him want to kill himself. Hell, I even think the government should pay for it, because it's the right thing to do. I just don't see why I should use the "she" pronoun until that happens. I know it's not the right word, but I feel like he hasn't "earned" it yet. I don't expect people to refer to me as a horse just because I say so. I might reasonably expect them to if I had hooves and a tail. Gender dysphoria =/= crazy person believing they are a horse, BTW. I honestly couldn't think of a better metaphor to express that "just because I say so" rational that I'm struggling with. I'm trying hard to express more nuance than just "He looks like a dude, so he's a dude", because the question is more complicated than that.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44855010]...Uh, no, gender has an extremely clear biological and physical, external manifestation, along with the internal manifestation. In his case, the two are not aligned. I just feel like there's more to it than "because I say so". I could go around telling people "I internally manifest as a horse, and you should all refer to me as 'Seabiscuit' from now on", but nobody is going to, because I don't have hooves or a tail. I believe he feels that he is female, and I think he should get his sex change therapy so his body can reflect that and it doesn't make him want to kill himself. Hell, I even think the government should pay for it, because it's the right thing to do. I just don't see why I should use the "she" pronoun until that happens. I know it's not the right word, but I feel like he hasn't "earned" it yet. I don't expect people to refer to me as a horse just because I say so. I might reasonably expect them to if I had hooves and a tail. Gender dysphoria =/= crazy person believing they are a horse, BTW. I honestly couldn't think of a better metaphor to express that "just because I say so" rational that I'm struggling with. I'm trying hard to express more nuance than just "He looks like a dude, so he's a dude", because the question is more complicated than that.[/QUOTE] Gender is not sex. Colloquially (and unfortunately) they are often used interchangeably, but dude, years of psychological study and the convictions of tens of thousands of trans individuals have proven that gender is up to the person, not their audience. It doesn't matter if you've got a dick or a vag, what you identify as takes precedence. I am not saying this to be argumentative, this is literally the truth. Gender =/= sex =/= presentation =/= orientation, all that. Also never conflate people saying they're animals with trans individuals. Even if you admit it's a bad comparison.

[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44852593]Don't forget that Chelsea Manning revealed the extent that the US military covered up human rights atrocities and the least they can do is not treat her like shit.[/QUOTE] Don't forget that wasn't her intention. She grabbed everything she could get and threw it at the first person who would talk to her. It just so happened there was some shady stuff in that pile of crap.

people have to earn their respective gender now?

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44855010]...Uh, no, gender has an extremely clear biological and physical, external manifestation[/QUOTE] No. Gender =/= Sex. Sex is your physical parts. Gender is what you identify yourself as.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44854907]Disagree. He's a dude who basically [I]asked[/I] people to refer to him as a woman. Nothing else has changed, legal or otherwise. I'm totally on board with it once that does change.[/QUOTE] You're such a lovely lady.

[QUOTE=.Lain;44855027]people have to earn their respective gender now?[/QUOTE] Yeah, this is the mindset of a lot of people - that trans people have to get the approval of all the gatekeepers and "work" to "earn" their gender, which is bullshit. I mean, I haven't worked to earn my gender, Used Car Salesman hasn't worked to earn their gender.... Trans people have to jump through so many hoops to earn respect and be recognized as who they are, which is bullshit.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44854999]does that mean we should not be taking strides towards helping people with other mental disorders such as being a trasngender or schizophrenic?[/QUOTE] Youre not understanding me, the brain cant be changed or the technology/drugs are not there yet to change it. So at the moment, any doctor would agree that the safest option is hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery. The actual sex change surgery is sometimes not even required. Any trans person in the world would wish they were their correct gender to begin with anyway.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44855064]Youre not understanding me, the brain cant be changed or the technology/drugs are not there yet to change it. So at the moment, any doctor would agree that the safest option is hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery. The actual sex change surgery is sometimes not even required.[/QUOTE] I thought hormone replacement therapy had a lot of side effects to go along with it.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44855078]I thought hormone replacement therapy had a lot of side effects to go along with it.[/QUOTE] Which is why you get prescribed the medication that's right for you based on your evaluations so you get the least amount of side effects, and if they still don't work you get prescribed to other stuff. [QUOTE=codemaster85;44855064] Any trans person in the world would wish they were their correct gender to begin with anyway.[/QUOTE] Well, that's kind of a too-broad statement and kind of binarist, but yeah, I get the sentiment.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;44855078]I thought hormone replacement therapy had a lot of side effects to go along with it.[/QUOTE] safer than the prominent side effect of not undergoing hrt as someone with gdi which is suicide also the side effects are usually minimal if your therapy goes as planned

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44855064]Youre not understanding me, the brain cant be changed or the technology/drugs are not there yet to change it. So at the moment, any doctor would agree that the safest option is hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery. The actual sex change surgery is sometimes not even required.[/QUOTE] To further back this up let me explain. Not many people recognize it but being transgender is actually a birth defect. When we all start in the womb we are females. If the fetus is destined to become male, there's two stages where the fetus is fed huge doses of testosterone. One of the doses goes to the brain, and the other goes to the body. For male-to-females, the brain doesn't get the dose to the brain (or very little) while the body gets the normal amount. This causes the brain to develop as female. Now what do I mean by that? Well, the brains of females and males are structurally different. The brains of transgender individuals match those to the gender they identify. Thus a transgirl's brain will resemble a cisgender female's brain. For transmen, the dose to the brain comes but the body doesn't get the same treatment thus causing the brain to develop male but the body developing female.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;44855115]To further back this up let me explain. Not many people recognize it but being transgender is actually a birth defect. When we all start in the womb we are females. If the fetus is destined to become male, there's two stages where the fetus is fed huge doses of testosterone. One of the doses goes to the brain, and the other goes to the body. For male-to-females, the brain doesn't get the dose to the brain (or very little) while the body gets the normal amount. This causes the brain to develop as female. Now what do I mean by that? Well, the brains of females and males are structurally different. The brains of transgender individuals match those to the gender they identify. Thus a transgirl's brain will resemble a cisgender female's brain. For transmen, the dose to the brain comes but the body doesn't get the same treatment thus causing the brain to develop male but the body developing female.[/QUOTE] Welllllll, it's not "being transgender is actually a birth defect", but more like "a birth defect can result in gender identity disorder" because you don't have to have gender identity disorder/general dysphoria to be trans. Otherwise, this is informative.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;44854276]Because you people act like you want change, and I want to see you do something about it for once.[/QUOTE] how dare you insinuate that we dont. [editline]19th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=frozensoda;44854590]why does everyone always devolve into "shut up you opinion is irrelevant" like this isn't an internet forum where you post your opinion.[/QUOTE] Your opinion is irrelevant because its the one of someone willingly uninformed of the subject matter.

[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;44855021]Gender is not sex. Colloquially (and unfortunately) they are often used interchangeably, but dude, years of psychological study and the convictions of tens of thousands of trans individuals have proven that gender is up to the person, not their audience. It doesn't matter if you've got a dick or a vag, what you identify as takes precedence. I am not saying this to be argumentative, this is literally the truth. Gender =/= sex =/= presentation =/= orientation, all that. Also never conflate people saying they're animals with trans individuals. Even if you admit it's a bad comparison.[/QUOTE] Okay, I get the distinction. And yes, it's a shit comparison. We're not talking about a guy who wants other people to acknowledge that he's a horse. We're talking about someone who wants other people to acknowledge his (her) internal, subjective gender, regardless of external presentation or physical sex. I suppose [I]the right thing to do[/I] is to recognize everyone's internal conviction, regardless of whether they are in a position to take any further action on it, as Chelsea sadly is not. It still seems kind of weird, but I guess the world is better off if we just accept people's internal manifestation of gender in all cases, no questions asked, period, instead of nitpicking. It makes for a lot less misery for a lot of people. Accepting it hurts nobody, refusing to accept it does hurt people. Sorry, guys. I know some gay people, and I'm fine with it. I know some lesbian people, and I'm fine with that too. I haven't gotten the chance to know any trans people yet, and I'm honestly still trying to wrap my head around it. But I am figuring out that refusing to accept it would make me a pretty shitty person.

[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;44855134]Welllllll, it's not "being transgender is actually a birth defect", but more like "a birth defect can result in gender identity disorder" because you don't have to have gender identity disorder/general dysphoria to be trans. Otherwise, this is informative.[/QUOTE] I know. But I still consider it a birth defect because this has physical evidence to back it up. The defect being the brain's structure doesn't match the body it's put in. [editline]19th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44855158]Sorry, guys. I know some gay people, and I'm fine with it. I know some lesbian people, and I'm fine with that too. I haven't gotten the chance to know any trans people yet, and I'm honestly still trying to wrap my head around it. But I am figuring out that refusing to accept it would make me a pretty shitty person.[/QUOTE] If they say they're a different gender then that's what they are. No ifs, ands, or buts. Respect them as such. Simple, eh? :P

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44855158]But I am figuring out that refusing to accept it would make me a pretty shitty person.[/QUOTE] Hey, no biggie man. So long as you aren't shitting on people/refusing to see the other side, you're not a bad guy. Thanks for at least being open c: