Chelsea Manning 'may sue' over gender dysphoria therapy - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44855158] But I am figuring out that refusing to accept it would make me a pretty shitty person.[/QUOTE] We need more people like you quite honestly

[QUOTE=Kyle902;44855139]how dare you insinuate that we dont. [editline]19th May 2014[/editline] Your opinion is irrelevant because its the one of someone willingly uninformed of the subject matter.[/QUOTE] what am I willingly uninformed about? What are you referencing? That means nothing, because I said multiple times that I don't believe that the issue is a transgender issue, it's a mental healthcare issue. Implying that this issue is entirely about transgenderism would put transgender people and their problems on a pedestal compared to literally everyone else. Why is it so important that she gets this care but no one cares about the thousands of prisoners suffering from crippling depression? I'm not uninformed, I don't have a victim complex, you just don't want to hear anything other than "Yes pay for it and make sure she's absolutely in the best care possible and fuck everyone else." Seriously, what are you referring to when you say I'm uninformed? Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm uninformed, that's an incredibly smug attitude to have. If anything it's you guys who are uninformed about the state of care for most prisoners and poor people alike, you clearly have no gauge of how bad it can be if you think that her not being able to talk to a therapist is as bad as it gets, and if you can't understand why someone like me would hold this opinion. And it's also you who has the victim complex, I haven't said anything that could even be misconstrued as transphobic, and yet just because I disagree that's what you think.

[QUOTE=frozensoda;44855277]-stop- [/QUOTE] You are making some pretty broad assumptions of my life there. Thats an incredibly "smug" thing to do. To put it mildly I am not exactly of an affluent background. I also never implied that I was the victim in the situation and I daresay its YOU who is showing a persecution complex.

Nice job to the people comparing schizophrenia to this, you clearly have no fucking clue.

[QUOTE=flamehead5;44856100]Nice job to the people comparing schizophrenia to this, you clearly have no fucking clue.[/QUOTE] gender dysphoria is a deeply serious issue. where are you getting the idea that it isn't.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;44856202]gender dysphoria is a deeply serious issue. where are you getting the idea that it isn't.[/QUOTE] Schizophrenia is on a whole different level than Gender Dysphoria, there's no way you can compare the two.

She really shouldn't be imprisoned in the first place.

[QUOTE=flamehead5;44856100]Nice job to the people comparing schizophrenia to this, you clearly have no fucking clue.[/QUOTE] Not really comparing, its to put it in the same catagory as an mental disorder like depression.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;44856240]Schizophrenia is on a whole different level than Gender Dysphoria, there's no way you can compare the two.[/QUOTE] and your argument is what? ofc they're both deeply serious issues.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44856388]Not really comparing, its to put it in the same catagory as an mental disorder like depression.[/QUOTE] Gender Dysphoria can not be put into the same category as Depression, because it is not a mood disorder in itself. People with Gender Dysphoria can experience depressive symptoms, but the underlying cause of the depressive symptoms are secondary to Gender Dysphoria.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;44852583]if you think this request is somehow irrational then you probably just outright don't care about others in the first place[/QUOTE] lol ignorance is different to malicious apathy

[QUOTE=flamehead5;44856100]Nice job to the people comparing schizophrenia to this, you clearly have no fucking clue.[/QUOTE] "wow did you just compare x to y" is such bullshit

I don't get why a prisoner should get a "cosmetic" (I know it's not actually cosmetic) surgery if they're imprisoned. (and yes, I know that Chelsea Manning was pretty much wrongly convicted) Why should a prisoner get an operation that's extremely expensive while a free woman or man would have to pay?

[QUOTE=katbug;44857082]I don't get why a prisoner should get a "cosmetic" (I know it's not actually cosmetic) surgery if they're imprisoned. (and yes, I know that Chelsea Manning was pretty much wrongly convicted) Why should a prisoner get an operation that's extremely expensive while a free woman or man would have to pay?[/QUOTE] Well, a few things. First off, the prisoner is under the care of the government - that's been established in this thread a million times over. Second, the "free men and women" have a significant advantage over those in prison - they have the ability to seek out their treatment with relative (relative is important) ease, while prisoners have to, idk, go through courts to get any sort of shot at it? So, essentially, the government has an obligation - which it happily ignores far too often, but that's for another time - to help the people who they're keeping under their care. Thirdly, as others have said, dragging everyone down isn't the way forward. The way to handle this isn't to go "Oh, I don't get treatment for free, therefore these people who already have more limited rights than me shouldn't too!" No, it's to bring everyone UP, so that everyone should be able to get the treatments they need! Shit, what a fucking radical idea! Fourth, it's not overly expensive compared to a lot of other disorders? Hormone replacement therapy is rather cheap, and as someone else already mentioned the doctors and surgeons in the prisons are already getting paid I believe? It'll cost the taxpayers a fraction of a cent at most and, if you complain about that tiny amount going towards saving someone's life you have messed up priorities given what other shit your taxes go towards.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;44855010]...Uh, no, gender has an extremely clear biological and physical, external manifestation, along with the internal manifestation. In his case, the two are not aligned. I just feel like there's more to it than "because I say so". I could go around telling people "I internally manifest as a horse, and you should all refer to me as 'Seabiscuit' from now on", but nobody is going to, because I don't have hooves or a tail.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;44855021]Gender is not sex. Colloquially (and unfortunately) they are often used interchangeably, but dude, years of psychological study and the convictions of tens of thousands of trans individuals have proven that gender is up to the person, not their audience. It doesn't matter if you've got a dick or a vag, what you identify as takes precedence. I am not saying this to be argumentative, this is literally the truth. Gender =/= sex =/= presentation =/= orientation, all that.[/QUOTE] Hm. I think humanity is reaching an interesting point. I mean, we've got this understanding now that gender dysphoria is an identity thing. Something in your mind that you have no choice over, that causes you to think and do certain things. Being a murderer. Being a racist. These, on the other hand, are widely considered to be 'choices' that someone makes, unlike, say, gender/sex/etc. But why would anyone actually [I]choose[/I] these things? Why would anyone willingly choose to be horrible? It would be complete insanity to [I]choose[/I] an identity that is willingly bad/evil/etc. I mean if you examine it closely - irrespective of whether it's caused by neurochemicals, thought patterns, identity, environment, upbringing - there doesn't seem to actually be free will or choices involved in any of it. I think we're coming to this stage now. Realising that the core affliction behind all evil is... humanity itself. I mean, only a truly insane species could bring about the deaths of 300,000,000+ at the hands of other humans in the 20th century. Hopefully medical/psychological care will take this sort of thing into account in the next 20 years and be better equipped to deal with it. Demonising people for crimes and atrocities they had no conscious ability to avert (because they were fated to do it regardless) doesn't really seem to make a major difference, and this could be a pretty serious revelation, considering this has been the status quo for thousands of years. You might think of rating this [img]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/box.png[/img], but ask yourself, is it really a choice you're making? Or are you just disagreeing because [I]your experience tells you to[/I]? As for how you treat it, I think CBT is on the cutting edge of potential future treatments, as it recognises the link between mind and behaviour (action). Something like this could be introduced to the wider population who could use it to absolve negative conditioning resulting in any number of things. Funnily enough, the far east has known about this 'human affliction' for thousands of years, it forms the root of buddhism. Recognise your mind and deny it's ability to rule your existence.

[QUOTE=IceWarrior98;44853932]Shit I might as well go murder someone right now. Get free room and board, all of my medical needs taken care of for free (at tax payers expense), 3 meals a day, an hour of free time, cable tv, and internet. Fuck man. Sounds like the life.[/QUOTE] lmao this post. that actually sounds like the life to you? [editline]20th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=katbug;44857082]I don't get why a prisoner should get a "cosmetic" (I know it's not actually cosmetic) surgery if they're imprisoned. (and yes, I know that Chelsea Manning was pretty much wrongly convicted) Why should a prisoner get an operation that's extremely expensive while a free woman or man would have to pay?[/QUOTE] wait what, why should a prisoner get a cosmetic but it's not actually cosmetic surgery? you're kind of asking a question that you acknowledge isn't the actual question directly afterwards

[QUOTE=katbug;44857082]I don't get why a prisoner should get a "cosmetic" (I know it's not actually cosmetic) surgery if they're imprisoned. (and yes, I know that Chelsea Manning was pretty much wrongly convicted) Why should a prisoner get an operation that's extremely expensive while a free woman or man would have to pay?[/QUOTE] How is it not cosmetic? Chopping off one's genitals and chugging a bucket of hormone pills does not transform one into a woman. Your DNA doesn't change, your sex stays the same. It's an operation meant to change the look of a person to what they feel they should look like. Pretty much the definition of cosmetic surgery.

[QUOTE=V12US;44857458]How is it not cosmetic? Chopping off one's genitals and chugging a bucket of hormone pills does not transform one into a woman. Your DNA doesn't change, your sex stays the same. It's an operation meant to change the look of a person to what they feel they should look like. Pretty much the definition of cosmetic surgery.[/QUOTE] i was more referring to him saying 'cosmetic, i know it's not actually cosmetic'. but i dunno i'll let someone else explain it to you because i'm not hugely knowledgeable about the effects of the surgery. i guess because it's a treatment for the gender dysphoria?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44857461]i was more referring to him saying 'cosmetic, i know it's not actually cosmetic'. but i dunno i'll let someone else explain it to you because i'm not hugely knowledgeable about the effects of the surgery. i guess because it's a treatment for the gender dysphoria?[/QUOTE] I know, I quoted the wrong post.

If people are saying this should be funded by healthcare system because it causes depression, Fund my hair loss drugs too. If I get told to just 'deal with the cards your dealt' even if it causes depression because I have a horrendous birth mark on my scalp, it's cosmetic just like the treatment in the article, both cause depression, both should get funding by that logic. Except how dare you say that gender dysmorphia sufferer gets denied their cosmetic drugs and tell them to deal with the cards they've been dealt while MPB is seen as just oh well shave your head and "it's natural" yeah well, that's just like saying someone with gender dysmorphia should just suck it up when they need cosmetic drugs, and denying those drugs based on "it's natural" should be applied if applied to MPB drugs then.

[QUOTE=Tasm;44857731]If people are saying this should be funded by healthcare system because it causes depression, Fund my hair loss drugs too. If I get told to just 'deal with the cards your dealt' even if it causes depression because I have a horrendous birth mark on my scalp, it's cosmetic just like the treatment in the article, both cause depression, both should get funding by that logic. Except how dare you say that gender dysmorphia sufferer gets denied their cosmetic drugs and tell them to deal with the cards they've been dealt while MPB is seen as just oh well shave your head and "it's natural" yeah well, that's just like saying someone with gender dysmorphia should just suck it up when they need cosmetic drugs, and denying those drugs based on "it's natural" should be applied if applied to MPB drugs then.[/QUOTE] Did you just compare hair loss to fucking gender dysphoria. Holy shit argument of the century.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44856287]She really shouldn't be imprisoned in the first place.[/QUOTE] Didn't she leak stuff that showed some of the bad things the government was/is doing and they got majorly butthurt about it?

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44857998]Not just that. Convoy plans, battle formations. Literally everything she could get a hold of. It's not just "government butthurt" that got her sentenced, its the fact that she just didn't give a shit about what was being taken. Its one thing to just take the evidence, its another to take as much classified info as possible, then post it on the web.[/QUOTE] oh ok then, that's alot worse than I thought it was. In that case she does deserve to be in prison.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44857975]Did you just compare hair loss to fucking gender dysphoria. Holy shit argument of the century.[/QUOTE] Both are an element of your life that you have no control over, that causes dissatisfaction..?

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44858121]Both are an element of your life that you have no control over, that causes dissatisfaction..?[/QUOTE] One is hating literally everything about your body when the other is losing some hair and having baldspots.

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44858121]Both are an element of your life that you have no control over, that causes dissatisfaction..?[/QUOTE] I am honestly speechless if you think they are comparable. Like usually I'd make some sarcastic comment about how stupid that is, but I can't even do it now. They are so far from the same you might as well have suggested offering to buy prisoners new cars on the idea that they can't get them in prison so that dissatisfies them.

[QUOTE=V12US;44857458]How is it not cosmetic? Chopping off one's genitals and chugging a bucket of hormone pills does not transform one into a woman. Your DNA doesn't change, your sex stays the same. It's an operation meant to change the look of a person to what they feel they should look like. Pretty much the definition of cosmetic surgery.[/QUOTE] Identifying as a woman makes you one. Full stop. Hormones and surgery are there to correct the abnormalities that caused one body to form with the opposite sex of their brain. It's a correction surgery like getting an extra finger removed, etc. Please don't call it cosmetic because it just screams "I don't know what I'm talking about!"

[QUOTE=katbug;44857082]I don't get why a prisoner should get a "cosmetic" (I know it's not actually cosmetic) surgery if they're imprisoned. (and yes, I know that Chelsea Manning was pretty much wrongly convicted) Why should a prisoner get an operation that's extremely expensive while a free woman or man would have to pay?[/QUOTE] How exactly is this even relevant? I mean I might understand if you didn't read the article but the title itself clearly says therapy, nothing about any surgery at all. I am unsure if sex change therapy comes before or after a sex change but in any case that's not what was even brought up.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;44858144]One is hating literally everything about your body when the other is losing some hair and having baldspots.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Tomo Takino;44858180]I am honestly speechless if you think they are comparable.[/QUOTE] No don't misinterpret what I'm saying. The intensity is obviously very different. In either case, no choice is involved. Why would you choose to hate your body? Why would you choose to hate your baldness? It wouldn't make sense that these things would be choices. [QUOTE=Hardsurface;44857394]Hm. I think humanity is reaching an interesting point. I mean, we've got this understanding now that gender dysphoria is an identity thing. Something in your mind that you have no choice over, that causes you to think and do certain things. Being a murderer. Being a racist. These, on the other hand, are widely considered to be 'choices' that someone makes, unlike, say, gender/sex/etc. But why would anyone actually [I]choose[/I] these things? Why would anyone willingly choose to be horrible? It would be complete insanity to [I]choose[/I] an identity that is willingly bad/evil/etc. I mean if you examine it closely - irrespective of whether it's caused by neurochemicals, thought patterns, identity, environment, upbringing - there doesn't seem to actually be free will or choices involved in any of it. I think we're coming to this stage now. Realising that the core affliction behind all evil is... humanity itself. I mean, only a truly insane species could bring about the deaths of 300,000,000+ at the hands of other humans in the 20th century. Hopefully medical/psychological care will take this sort of thing into account in the next 20 years and be better equipped to deal with it. Demonising people for crimes and atrocities they had no conscious ability to avert (because they were fated to do it regardless) doesn't really seem to make a major difference, and this could be a pretty serious revelation, considering this has been the status quo for thousands of years. You might think of rating this [img]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/box.png[/img], but ask yourself, is it really a choice you're making? Or are you just disagreeing because [I]your experience tells you to[/I]? As for how you treat it, I think CBT is on the cutting edge of potential future treatments, as it recognises the link between mind and behaviour (action). Something like this could be introduced to the wider population who could use it to absolve negative conditioning resulting in any number of things. Funnily enough, the far east has known about this 'human affliction' for thousands of years, it forms the root of buddhism. Recognise your mind and deny it's ability to rule your existence.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hardsurface;44858215]No don't misinterpret what I'm saying. The intensity is obviously very different. In either case, no choice is involved.[/QUOTE] I don't want to misunderstand you and I'm not trying to, but really yes there is no choice to either, but it's the reaction from them that makes them not comparable. Baldness is something alot of people will think "Ah shit I'm going bald" and while they might get depressed over it, I believe there are effective treatments for it (I am unsure however, I will admit. it's not something I know about and I have just heard of hair regrowth treatments) and if not baldness isn't a trait that will cause distress in social places. Some people strive to be bald, but in any case baldness could cause self conscious issues with the person but not to the extent of TGism. You compare that to transgenderism, with it's high suicide rate and mistreatment of transgender people (Iirc in some countries it can be a death penalty, again I am unsure really but that's what I recall.) and then you do need to consider that yeah, they both cause distress, but it's almost insulting to say they are similar because they both are something people can't help. I mean sure, you can put them under the same 'Things people can't help' umbrella but they are vastly different.