US Senate passes controversial cybersecurity bill CISA 74 to 21 - Polidicks

i wish we could live in a world with privacy, but at this point it is far too late to go back to a time where that was possible. ever since i learned there was evidence of illegal monitoring of internet happening since the late 90s and mass dragnet surveillance since at least 2003 i've become disillusioned with privacy. i like personal privacy, like keeping parts of my life secret from family, work, or friends. that kind of privacy will most likely remain and in all honesty it is the only privacy anyone cares about. as of now, i just want the data to be open to everyone because there are countless applications and new discoveries that could be made in human behavior. i'd also like, as i said earkier, a way for us people to take ownership of the data that is mined from us, so we profit from ourselves and not someone else, or atleast not entirely. with transhumanism, if we're ever going to start sticking robotics and computers in ourselves we are going to have to accept that the manufacturers will know everything about us. now, some people may be scared by this, reasonably, but i have thought long and hard about it and i don't think we will notice a perceptible difference. the amount of data streaming in will give people a bit of security through obscurity. hell, as it currently is i remember reading something that said the NSA has collected so much data that search times are so long it makes it worthless. computers will get faster (and quantum computers could make that search instant) but no government has the resources or time to act on everyone's crime, they will most likely only act on what they feel is necessary (actual terrorists, people who are considered dangerous to the state whether actually dangerous or not) there are a lot of negatives and a lot of positives to the death of privacy, but no matter what anyone says it is inevitable if we continue to advance technologically. i would much rather look for the positives since everybody already knows all the negatives

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48998780]We're not giving up hope we're facing reality.[/QUOTE] Giving up is still giving up even if you try to call it by a different name [QUOTE]I ask you now, name a realistic plan to stop this while there's time before the bill hits House of Representatives? Name it to me right now, and this whole thing won't be a lost cause.[/QUOTE] How about the same way SOPA and PIPA and such got canned? If it worked once it will work again. [QUOTE]And even if we do beat it again, this article shows that it'll just come back until they get their way.[/QUOTE] And so it gets protested again and again until a generation of politicians gets into office that isn't stupid enough to try and pass something like this. The sort of attitude you're showing is exactly like a lot of parents with their children. They'll keep telling their child no and the kid will keep asking until the parent just gives up which teaches the child bad habits. [QUOTE=Helix Snake;48998782]Both of the Senators from my state (Oregon) voted nay, I'm pretty happy with the politicians that come out of Oregon in general.[/QUOTE] We have a weird habit of lagging behind Washington and California in a lot of things but we do get some okayish politicians compared to most states.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48998996]i wish we could live in a world with privacy, but at this point it is far too late to go back to a time where that was possible. ever since i learned there was evidence of illegal monitoring of internet happening since the late 90s and mass dragnet surveillance since at least 2003 i've become disillusioned with privacy. i like personal privacy, like keeping parts of my life secret from family, work, or friends. that kind of privacy will most likely remain and in all honesty it is the only privacy anyone cares about. as of now, i just want the data to be open to everyone because there are countless applications and new discoveries that could be made in human behavior. i'd also like, as i said earkier, a way for us people to take ownership of the data that is mined from us, so we profit from ourselves and not someone else, or atleast not entirely. with transhumanism, if we're ever going to start sticking robotics and computers in ourselves we are going to have to accept that the manufacturers will know everything about us. now, some people may be scared by this, reasonably, but i have thought long and hard about it and i don't think we will notice a perceptible difference. the amount of data streaming in will give people a bit of security through obscurity. hell, as it currently is i remember reading something that said the NSA has collected so much data that search times are so long it makes it worthless. computers will get faster (and quantum computers could make that search instant) but no government has the resources or time to act on everyone's crime, they will most likely only act on what they feel is necessary (actual terrorists, people who are considered dangerous to the state whether actually dangerous or not) there are a lot of negatives and a lot of positives to the death of privacy, but no matter what anyone says it is inevitable if we continue to advance technologically. i would much rather look for the positives since everybody already knows all the negatives[/QUOTE] I'd like to stop you right there because you're wrong. Privacy is not dead. It is not too late to get it back. There are currently LOTS of efforts in technological advancements that will prove these bills absolutely useless, and make data mining nightmare at best. Things like [url=http://ipfs.io/]IPFS[/url], [url=https://www.torproject.org/]TOR[/url], [url=https://freenetproject.org/]Freenet[/url], [url=https://diasporafoundation.org/]Diaspora*[/url], and many more, are all projects seeking to avoid these issues entirely by doing away with our usual way of interaction through the Internet. One, that would it be widespread enough, could be preinstalled on certain machines with verifiable code all the way down, providing a completely secure, safe, and private environment, one which we area already increasingly closing in on. [editline]28th October 2015[/editline] Oh, but in the legal department? Yeah, we're fucked. However, if the law that was supposed to be representative of morale and ethics fail to deliver on what the country population views as being ethically correct and so on so forth, then the law has failed.

Well what then Alice? You want me to blindly think we can do this? I've seen people try hard, and give it their all to fight stuff like this, fight against governments, corporations, against 1%ers, and they failed. They failed because the people behind those things can just shut themselves in and away from our noise. Do you expect me to just wave signs at nothing until something happens? I'm not going to waste my time doing that. I simply just cannot agree that simply protesting to keep it at bay will work. What's not to say our next generation of politicians suck? What's not to say they'll be as selfish and greedy as our current politicians? I'm not saying all of this simply because I'm some defeatist, I simply don't see a logical reason to keep fighting this worthless fight. If they can simply learn to not let us know when they're doing the bills that fuck us, then what is our fight worth? I could drive right now to Daily Plaza in downtown Chicago, and scream super super loud! I'd most likely just get arrested for disturbing the peace. [editline]28th October 2015[/editline] Me and a bunch of people could go to Daily Plaza and scream really really loud. They'd just shut the window and that's that.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48999157]Well what then Alice? You want me to blindly think we can do this? I've seen people try hard, and give it their all to fight stuff like this, fight against governments, corporations, against 1%ers, and they failed. They failed because the people behind those things can just shut themselves in and away from our noise. Do you expect me to just wave signs at nothing until something happens? I'm not going to waste my time doing that. I simply just cannot agree that simply protesting to keep it at bay will work. What's not to say our next generation of politicians suck? What's not to say they'll be as selfish and greedy as our current politicians? I'm not saying all of this simply because I'm some defeatist, I simply don't see a logical reason to keep fighting this worthless fight. If they can simply learn to not let us know when they're doing the bills that fuck us, then what is our fight worth? I could drive right now to Daily Plaza in downtown Chicago, and scream super super loud! I'd most likely just get arrested for disturbing the peace.[/QUOTE] Protesting has changed things in the past though. You know what has never changed things and likely never will? Giving up. What you're saying is that if I have some asshole keep pounding on my door who I don't want to let in (let's just pretend the police won't do anything for this example) that I should just let him in to get him to stop pounding on my door rather than trying to find some way to stop him. It's incredibly idiotic. You're not going to fix any issues ever by simply giving up on them. All that does is lets the people trying to pass shit like this win and teaches them that if they just keep at it they can do whatever the fuck they want.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;48999163]Protesting has changed things in the past though. You know what has never changed things and likely never will? Giving up. What you're saying is that if I have some asshole keep pounding on my door who I don't want to let in (let's just pretend the police won't do anything for this example) that I should just let him in to get him to stop pounding on my door rather than trying to find some way to stop him. It's incredibly idiotic. You're not going to fix any issues ever by simply giving up on them. All that does is lets the people trying to pass shit like this win and teaches them that if they just keep at it they can do whatever the fuck they want.[/QUOTE] Well what then. I go make a sign, wave it for hours, chant with others, then police come in and the arrests happen. Why would I go to wave a sign then get arrested for it? Besides for this topic it's obviously too late, we could round up and make a fit in front of Capitol Hill, but would it seriously do any good? Would they stop out of the kindness of their hearts? Or are we going to keep doing this and hope Bernie gets in, and Hope he repeals it for good?

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48999166]Well what then. I go make a sign, wave it for hours, chant with others, then police come in and the arrests happen. Why would I go to wave a sign then get arrested for it? Besides for this topic it's obviously too late, we could round up and make a fit in front of Capitol Hill, but would it seriously do any good? Would they stop out of the kindness of their hearts? Or are we going to keep doing this and hope Bernie gets in, and Hope he repeals it for good?[/QUOTE] Giving up is totally better than going to jail for something you believe in. Plus this hasn't yet passed the House and (as unlikely as it is) Obama could still veto it even if it passes there. And if it still passes after that then it can be taken to the Supreme Court. Or we could just be like you and go "meh, whatever" and let them do whatever they want and not care because, hey! What's the point? They'll just try again!!

[QUOTE=Alice3173;48999163]Protesting has changed things in the past though. You know what has never changed things and likely never will? Giving up. What you're saying is that if I have some asshole keep pounding on my door who I don't want to let in (let's just pretend the police won't do anything for this example) that I should just let him in to get him to stop pounding on my door rather than trying to find some way to stop him. It's incredibly idiotic. You're not going to fix any issues ever by simply giving up on them. All that does is lets the people trying to pass shit like this win and teaches them that if they just keep at it they can do whatever the fuck they want.[/QUOTE] its funny that you use that analogy. you wanna know how you would react in that situation? ignore the asshole at your door until he realizes nothing will happen and he goes away. in the real world, the senators are the ones sitting inside, and we're outside. youre trying to tell us to keep pounding the door like its going to make any difference

The horrors of having a Republican Majority in the Senate. (Not that democrats are much better. Both my Senators fucked us over by voting yes for this.)

[QUOTE=Anti Christ;48999181]its funny that you use that analogy. you wanna know how you would react in that situation? ignore the asshole at your door until he realizes nothing will happen and he goes away. in the real world, the senators are the ones sitting inside, and we're outside. youre trying to tell us to keep pounding the door like its going to make any difference[/QUOTE] That's how I feel about this. Don't pound on the door, they ignore me. Pound on the door, they'll turn their music up and still ignore us. We break a window to get their attention, we get arrested.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;48999170]Giving up is totally better than going to jail for something you believe in. Plus this hasn't yet passed the House and (as unlikely as it is) Obama could still veto it even if it passes there. And if it still passes after that then it can be taken to the Supreme Court. Or we could just be like you and go "meh, whatever" and let them do whatever they want and not care because, hey! What's the point? They'll just try again!![/QUOTE] if someone protests something and nothing happens --> the outcome isnt changed for better or worse if someone protests something and gets arrested --> now they have a criminal record, employment is in jeopardy, and the outcome still hasnt changed. why would a reasonable person pick the second option? why are you so adamant that protesting will change anything here? the only thing we can do is email senators and hope to god they vote the way we want them to

[QUOTE=Anti Christ;48999188]if someone protests something and nothing happens --> the outcome isnt changed for better or worse if someone protests something and gets arrested --> now they have a criminal record, employment is in jeopardy, and the outcome still hasnt changed. why would a reasonable person pick the second option? why are you so adamant that protesting will change anything here? the only thing we can do is email senators and hope to god they vote the way we want them to[/QUOTE] You're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm even trying to say. I'm saying just giving up like Martin is suggesting is NOT the right answer. And to a point our senators and representatives do need to listen to us. They may get funded by corporations quite often but they're still elected by popular vote.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;48999194]You're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm even trying to say. I'm saying just giving up like Martin is suggesting is NOT the right answer. And to a point our senators and representatives do need to listen to us. They may get funded by corporations quite often but they're still elected by popular vote.[/QUOTE] Thinking about it and after PMing with you, now maybe I don't think giving up is the answer. But still what else is there to do about this?

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48999206]Thinking about it and after PMing with you, now maybe I don't think giving up is the answer. But still what else is there to do about this?[/QUOTE] I'm going to just quote my pm response here for everyone else in case it may help: [QUOTE]There's still other stuff you can do. You can write/email your state's representatives and senators to voice your opinion for example. While they'll still be swayed some by the opinions of those funding them if the popular opinion outweighs those paid ones they're going to go with the popular opinion since it's the public that votes them into office. For example [url=https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/earl_blumenauer/400033]this[/url] is the representative for my county. The contact button there leads to his personal website which has a contact page [url=https://forms.house.gov/blumenauer/webforms/issue_subscribe.html]here[/url] where I could email him about CISA. I don't know what state and county you're in but if you wanted you could look up your state senators and your district representative and contact them about this if you wanted. (Although senators would be a moot point at the moment since their vote is already done.)[/QUOTE] If you disagree with CISA then all of you should find your district's representative and contact them about it. If enough people did contact them and voice their opinions on it then your representative would be far more likely to vote against it. Maybe it's not much but it's still better than giving up and if enough people refuse to give up then we could definitely win out against it.

[QUOTE=mastersrp;48999153]I'd like to stop you right there because you're wrong. Privacy is not dead. It is not too late to get it back. There are currently LOTS of efforts in technological advancements that will prove these bills absolutely useless, and make data mining nightmare at best. Things like [url=http://ipfs.io/]IPFS[/url], [url=https://www.torproject.org/]TOR[/url], [url=https://freenetproject.org/]Freenet[/url], [url=https://diasporafoundation.org/]Diaspora*[/url], and many more, are all projects seeking to avoid these issues entirely by doing away with our usual way of interaction through the Internet. One, that would it be widespread enough, could be preinstalled on certain machines with verifiable code all the way down, providing a completely secure, safe, and private environment, one which we area already increasingly closing in on. [editline]28th October 2015[/editline] Oh, but in the legal department? Yeah, we're fucked. However, if the law that was supposed to be representative of morale and ethics fail to deliver on what the country population views as being ethically correct and so on so forth, then the law has failed.[/QUOTE] i think that there may be a small boost in the number of people who try to mask their lives, but i never see general adoption unless we start teaching our kids now that privacy is key. part of this is because i can't see the general population not using facebook or some other kind of social networking, or using google or some other search engine. and once free national wifi becomes a thing the game's up, everything most people do would be datamined by the shit ton by whoever puts it up, it's what i would do if i had the money. eventually people are going to get RFID chips put into them, not because anyone forced them they just liked the convenience of having their credit card, ID, keys, passwords, vital sign and location monitoring all implanted neatly in the flesh between your index finger and thumb. just like how rewards cards are used by companies to monitor your purchasing habits so they can better market to you, anyone who is able to get access to the data in your chip will use it and sell it to get you to buy more things. but this data can be used for good, too. it opens up entirely new studies that would have great impact on several fields. as machine learning gets better, and as more data is revealed, we begin to tap into the greater human psyche in a way never before p0ossible. we could expect advances in psychology, anthropology, economics, et al. it is an interesting, scary, brave new world we're going into, but into it we go, and i would rather look at the positives. maybe we'll discover that privacy was just keeping us back the whole time (probably not, but it is nice to dream)

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48998707]You don't think the other Governments of the world aren't looking at this with possibilities of their own CISA's?[/QUOTE] Doesn't seem like something the EU would do ybh but we'll see

Also fuck my asshole both my State Senators said yes :v:. Illinois by the by.

Indiana has both a Republican and Democrat in the Senate and both voted yes. I expected no less from Indiana.

Are they allowed to collect data from companies based in EU?

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48998707]You don't think the other Governments of the world aren't looking at this with possibilities of their own CISA's?[/QUOTE] Germany has quite a bit of a past with government surveillance, so something like this really doesn't fly that easily here. It's already a hotly debated topic whether the government may require ISPs to record user IPs at all, with the relevant law being thrown out by court twice so far iirc. [editline]28th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=arleitiss;48999306]Are they allowed to collect data from companies based in EU?[/QUOTE] I assume that anyone who operates in the USA may give data to the US authorities from there under this. Of course doing this to EU citizens (and in light of NSA data collection also the transfer of data over to the US) means a corporation can't legally operate in the EU, which is a huge problem for companies that have branch offices here to pay less taxes (e.g. Google and Facebook. Amazon may actually be able to store data locally because they have local data centres and their stores are essentially separate instances of roughly the same software, as far as I can tell.)

[QUOTE=apierce1289;48998629]Right there in your own question lies the true answer. The internet is the best thing for us as public citizens but it's the worst thing for a government that wants control over its people.[/QUOTE] I don't really believe that. The internet has become a tool for everyone, including governments. It's not like most people use the internet to look up "Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau. The internet is a medium for most people to talk to their friends and look at funny pictures. I think governments and corporations use this as a sort of "Bread and Circuses". It's like TV. TV has the potential to do a lot of good; showing us images of wars and reporting on things to give us the information we need to make rational, informed decisions about politicans and who we elect. But is that how TV works? Not since Cable. TV is probably the 20th century's biggest propaganda tool. Politicians use it to spread their political ads, Cable News outlets use it to sell fear. Example: in 1990, a Kuwaiti girl testified on TV about Iraqi soldiers murdering babies of a hospital she was candystriping at. This was used as evidence that we needed to support Kuwait and defeat the evil Saddam Hussein. In reality, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)]this girl was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador.[/url] Totally made up. It was manipulation. Total George Bush propaganda. Though we now have greater access to information, the information we get might still be total bullshit. Even then, most people dont give a fuck about international affairs or politics. On TV they watch morning talk shows and reality TV. On the internet they play videogames, browse facebook, watch twitch, tweet, snapchat, instagram, etc. The internet is not an inherently free or liberating. It's a tool, just like TV

[QUOTE=BANNED USER;48997535][URL=http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=114&session=1&vote=00291]Here's a link[/URL] to the Senate roll call list for the votes, if you're into that sort of thing.[/QUOTE] Of the 5 people who didn't vote, 4 are running for President. Interesting.

[video=youtube;aXU8w336oGs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU8w336oGs[/video]

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48999206]Thinking about it and after PMing with you, now maybe I don't think giving up is the answer. But still what else is there to do about this?[/QUOTE] Revolt Violently and drag them to jail ourselves and/or kill them. It's the old fashioned way of ending corruption.

Yay, Udall! Boo, Heinrich! For SHAME!

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48999206]Thinking about it and after PMing with you, now maybe I don't think giving up is the answer. But still what else is there to do about this?[/QUOTE] I signed up just to give some ideas on the matter. The solution is simple if you act fast. You have to make money. May be as a business person or however. Then find a local politician to bribe errr lobby. The agreement would be for x amount of money you give to the politician, you get a return back. Kinda like the bail outs. Use the profit on the returns to lobby more politicians to get more money. Then rinse repeat. The goal here is to suck the machine into a lifeless husk. Another idea is start a cult and infiltrate the government just like Scientology did.

You know 1984 was a great movie but i'm puzzel why the US government decided to make it a reality.

Both of my state's senators voted in favor of it. Feels bad, man.

[QUOTE=Passing;49034267]You know 1984 was a great movie but i'm puzzel why the US government decided to make it a reality.[/QUOTE] Yeah I guess computers are telescreens now in a way.

the funny thing is, the NSA collected so much data that it couldn't handle all of the information, and has thus stopped 0 terrorist attacks. the idea of collecting internet personal data is pretty stupid, there is too much data to reasonably be useful. they can pass all of these bills all they want. None of it is as useful as they want to believe it is, and it's too easy to get around if you really will it.