[QUOTE=Cureless;51685691]He's going to pardon somebody that actively acted against the country and committed treason?
They swore and broke an oath to maintain silence and to never compromise the security of the organization of which they served.
More of the typical "[i][b]patriotism[/b][/i]" Obama's been exercising these past few months, I see.[/QUOTE]
If Obama and his numerous advisors thought it was the correct course of action then I don't see what the problem is.
[QUOTE=Demeschik;51685653]Manning didn't gun it for Russia when she had the chance, so I guess that's the reason why it's her over Snowden. I'm not saying that it's an either-or decision, but still.[/QUOTE]
Snowden was trapped in Russia because the US revoked his visa while he was in the Moscow airport. He didn't "gun it" anywhere, they stranded him there.
[QUOTE=Snake7;51685712]She exposed war crimes and as a reward was looking forward to a life of solitary confinement or worse as a reward. If even Obama "drone strike Mcgee" knows that's wrong it's ridiculous people are mad about this.[/QUOTE]
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about doing that; endangering more people's lives is the wrong way.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;51685733]There's a right way and a wrong way to go about doing that; endangering more people's lives is the wrong way.[/QUOTE]
Again, people say that, but if Obama, the president of the very country most effected by her actions is commuting a vast amount of her sentence it must honestly not have been as bad as people like to moan about, if at all.
[QUOTE=srobins;51685731]Snowden was trapped in Russia because the US revoked his visa while he was in the Moscow airport. He didn't "gun it" anywhere, they stranded him there.[/QUOTE]
I think that the bottom line is that Snowden did not face the punitive justice process and thus can only be afforded a full pardoning which may not be something Obama is willing to do. Unfortunate, but the logic checks out either way.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51685737]I think that the bottom line is that Snowden did not face the punitive justice process and thus can only be afforded a full pardoning which may not be something Obama is willing to do. Unfortunate, but the logic checks out either way.[/QUOTE]
I guess, but can you blame him? I mean, Manning is a prime example of why whistleblowers have every reason/right to flee "due process", it's not due process at all. You did something bad to the state, the state is in charge of what happens to you afterwards. Not a very fair situation to be in, it's like assaulting a judge and having him preside over his own case against you.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;51685733]There's a right way and a wrong way to go about doing that; endangering more people's lives is the wrong way.[/QUOTE]
I'd feel you but compared to the disgusting shit that she leaked I don't really care about the leaker and whether they did it right or not.
Anyone who releases classified information (and thereby possibly endangered the lives of other sevicemen doing so), broke an oath to the country, abused their security clearance, and is literally a traitor shouldn't ever see a free life again.
Hopefully, this is something a new administration can put a halt to or reverse.
[QUOTE=KommradKommisar;51685681]At least joe taxpayer and I don't have to pay for her surgery.[/QUOTE]
wait until you hear about the bombings you have to pay for
[QUOTE=Demeschik;51685653]Manning didn't gun it for Russia when she had the chance, so I guess that's the reason why it's her over Snowden. I'm not saying that it's an either-or decision, but still.[/QUOTE]
Probably because she was sent to trial and imprisoned almost immediately.
Holy shit this is is amazing.
[QUOTE=Snake7;51685712]She exposed war crimes and as a reward was looking forward to a life of solitary confinement or worse as a reward. If even Obama "drone strike Mcgee" knows that's wrong it's ridiculous people are mad about this.[/QUOTE]
Haha, Manning wasn't doomed to a life of solitary confinement,she was regular prison GP before she attempted and failed several suicide attempts, they put her in there to keep constant watch over her.
[QUOTE=Mattk50;51685759]Holy shit this is is amazing.[/QUOTE]
Well I guess aside from exposing dirty laundry and leaking information about informants and collaborators within the region is as good. Not like the Taliban could get a hold of these documents.
[QUOTE=srobins;51685742]I guess, but can you blame him? I mean, Manning is a prime example of why whistleblowers have every reason/right to flee "due process", it's not due process at all. You did something bad to the state, the state is in charge of what happens to you afterwards. Not a very fair situation to be in, it's like assaulting a judge and having him preside over his own case against you.[/QUOTE]
No I cant blame him at all. Obama and the US government in general has an awful history with whistleblowers and clemency. Snowden deserves a pardon as well. The US should clear their record with whistleblowers and promote a more conductive attitude towards them.
Honestly, I still try to like obama but fucking seriously?
[QUOTE=Cureless;51685691]He's going to pardon somebody that actively acted against the country and committed treason?[/QUOTE]
Exposing war crimes and other illegal/immoral behavior isn't treason; it's patriotism.
If you've got an issue with Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden, take it up with the people and agencies whose behavior they exposed - don't shoot the messenger.
I dont know how to feel about this.
On one hand, the conditions Manning is going through are fucking awful.
On the other, what Manning did isnt exactly as black and white as people are making it out to be as far as i know and IIRC actually did put people in danger.
at least the last thing Obama did in his presidency was something worth remembering in a positive light
[QUOTE=Judas;51685755]wait until you hear about the bombings you have to pay for[/QUOTE]
I'm not a big fan of the 26,171 bombs that were dropped during the past year either, tyvm.
It's my money from my paycheck that funds this stuff, I can be peeved if I want.
[QUOTE=mcharest;51685786]Exposing war crimes and other illegal/immoral behavior is not treason; it is patriotism.[/QUOTE]
The problem is, IIRC, thats not all she did.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;51685787]I dont know how to feel about this.
On one hand, the conditions Manning is going through are fucking awful.
On the other, what Manning did isnt exactly as black and white as people are making it out to be as far as i know and IIRC actually did put people in danger.[/QUOTE]
You know military prisons are different from federal,state, or private ones right? The conditions Manning has been under are far better than normal prisons.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51685799]You know military prisons are different from federal,state, or private ones right? The conditions Manning has been under are far better than normal prisons.[/QUOTE]
Actually no, i dont really know much about military prisons, i was going off what ive read in other articles.
To anyone who is against this, I know of a land where you can enjoy zero government transparency and being lied to; North Korea.
[QUOTE=nox;51685812]How anyone can be against this is bewildering. Just move to North Korea where you can enjoy zero government transparency and being lied to.[/QUOTE]
Believe it or not people can have different viewpoints and opinions about complicated subjects than you.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;51685787]I dont know how to feel about this.
On one hand, the conditions Manning is going through are fucking awful.
On the other, what Manning did isnt exactly as black and white as people are making it out to be as far as i know and IIRC actually did put people in danger.[/QUOTE]
Even so, I think Obama of all people has a better and far more informed handle on this situation than we do, like I said before, he's the one who's technically the most fucked by Whistleblowers, because he's the President, he gains [I]nothing[/I] by being lenient here.
So it really must not be as bad as people are making it out to be.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;51685803]Actually no, i dont really know much about military prisons, i was going off what ive read in other articles.[/QUOTE]
Sensationalized articles acting like the confinement that Manning was under makes it seem like there's some Nazi deathcamp. When it was an environment where she could be constantly watched without being a risk to others.
[editline]17th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=nox;51685812]To anyone who is against this, I know of a land where you can enjoy zero government transparency and being lied to; North Korea.[/QUOTE]
There's a whole slew of differences in exposing dirty laundry that the government has and also having with the leaked information files relating to collaborators,informants,interpreters,etc. Who all assisted in ousting the Taliban in Afghanistan. Again I like to say that the Taliban REALLY loves getting accessible information like this because it means they go after those people and their families. But nah lets not look at that.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;51685816]Believe it or not people can have different viewpoints and opinions about complicated subjects than you.[/QUOTE]
How can leaving her in prison lead to any gain? Do you think it's going to be a deterrent against future whistleblowers, or is this just some petty 'deserved it' thing?
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51685821]
There's a whole slew of differences in exposing dirty laundry that the government has and also having with the leaked information files relating to collaborators,informants,interpreters,etc. Who all assisted in ousting the Taliban in Afghanistan. Again I like to say that the Taliban REALLY loves getting accessible information like this because it means they go after those people and their families. But nah lets not look at that.[/QUOTE]
After reading this I'll admit there's more to this situation than I was aware and I completely agree she'd be responsible for the retaliatory deaths of any of those who's names were revealed.
[QUOTE=nox;51685835]How can leaving her in prison lead to any gain? Do you think it's going to be a deterrent against future whistleblowers, or is this just some petty 'deserved it' thing?[/QUOTE]
I'd suggest reading RG4ORDR's post above yours and discussing that with him, im still not informed enough to make my own conclusion on the matter.
[QUOTE=mcharest;51685786]Exposing war crimes and other illegal/immoral behavior isn't treason; it's patriotism.
If you've got an issue with Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden, take it up with the people and agencies whose behavior they exposed - don't shoot the messenger.[/QUOTE]
Exposing the crimes and other problems as Manning did was a genuinely good thing. But the main issue a lot of people (who aren't rabidly against her because of "pratriotism" or bigotry) see with it was how scattergun the data was. I've not had a look at it, but what I've seen written about it claims the following; It wasn't curated very well, a lot of data that didn't need to be released was just thrown out there. And that it wasn't redacted totally, so any sensitive information about informants or positions could have been exposed.
One issue with whistleblowing is that the official avenues for doing it tend to be rife with collusion, so the guys you're exposing know you did it, and will do everything they can do fuck with you. But going through Wikileaks or similar groups is hugely risky as they don't give a single fuck about what they're publishing, as long is it paints their target of the month negatively. Even if it is to the detriment of innocent people mentioned in the documents.
any error manning made while leaking things can be blamed completely on the lack of a functioning "proper channel". People who try to go through the "proper channels" get fired then hounded for the rest of their lives by the corrupt fucks they were trying to expose. It's happened too many times now to keep blaming whistleblowers for not "doing it right".
[QUOTE=Mattk50;51685856]any error manning made while leaking things can be blamed completely on the lack of a functioning "proper channel". People who try to go through the "proper channels" get fired then hounded for the rest of their lives by the corrupt fucks they were trying to expose. It's happened too many times now to keep blaming whistleblowers for not "doing it right".[/QUOTE]
It's a shame that it always ends up this way. Independent whistleblowing authorities, set up explicitly so people from other areas of government can safely expose problems, still tend to have some issues with this stuff.
Not exactly encouraging for those trying to actually better organisations they're in.
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