[QUOTE=-nesto-;51686331]Nice of him to pardon a traitor. Surprised he didn't pardon Bergdahl while he was at it.[/QUOTE]
People like you who condemn whistleblowers are the reason why a lot of people who see fucked up shit stay apathetic to it and are content to let it continue. Manning might be a traitor, but Manning also exposed horrific war crimes that your government and their army have committed.
[QUOTE=The golden;51686976]This black and white way of thinking is so incredibly toxic.[/QUOTE]
but manning IS a traitor. All other politics aside they broke the fucking law and put others in extreme danger.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;51686982]but manning IS a traitor. All other politics aside they broke the fucking law and put others in extreme danger.[/QUOTE]
This argument is so dumb. "He put lives at risk!!!" Yes, I suppose so but no one actually died except all those brown people in the middle east that no one seems to care about. And seriously, if you haven't seen that leaked video, the military guns down children from a helicopter and I guarantee none of those people are rotting in a military prison right now. If you think putting lives at risk is a justifiable reason to send someone to prison you may as well round up half of the people who drive to work to everyday since their reckless driving is "putting lives at risk."
Mannings fuckup was dumping on wikileaks, and not redacting names or other sensitive PII. Exposing the war crimes was a public service. The mindless nationalism from some people in here is astounding
[QUOTE=The golden;51687003]Not all of us believe something because we're simply told to believe it. Chelsea acted with the best interest of her fellow citizens in mind. The everyday Joes and Janes of America. I don't consider that being a traitor. A traitor would be the person who committed the atrocities in the first place and then hid them.
You're welcome to disagree but that is my take on it.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe it because I was told to believe it, I believe it because I've seen the documents myself and come to those conclusions on my own, and fuck you for assuming I didn't. More than one party may commit fouls, and one person being a traitor doesn't mean their enemies aren't traitors too (and tbh, in my opinion, they aren't, but they [I]are[/I] war criminals)
[editline]18th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51687011]This argument is so dumb. "He put lives at risk!!!" Yes, I suppose so but no one actually died except all those brown people in the middle east that no one seems to care about. And seriously, if you haven't seen that leaked video, the military guns down children from a helicopter and I guarantee none of those people are rotting in a military prison right now. If you think putting lives at risk is a justifiable reason to send someone to prison you may as well round up half of the people who drive to work to everyday since their reckless driving is "putting lives at risk."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51686951]People like you who condemn whistleblowers are the reason why a lot of people who see fucked up shit stay apathetic to it and are content to let it continue.[B] Manning might be a traitor, but[/B] Manning also exposed horrific war crimes that your government and their army have committed.[/QUOTE]
So which one is it?
She's not a traitor because of the horrific behavior she exposed. She is a traitor because she committed treason whilst also revealing the war crimes.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming. For the 5th time. Play nice already." - postal))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;51687044]So which one is it?
She's not a traitor because of the horrific behavior she exposed. She is a traitor because she committed treason whilst also revealing the war crimes.[/QUOTE]
I don't get to choose who the US considers a traitor. For instance, they consider Assange a traitor and he isn't even American. Personally, I don't consider exposing the military to be treason, the real traitors are those who hide their crimes from their country. Country being the people, not the government like many seem to believe.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51686951]People like you who condemn whistleblowers are the reason why a lot of people who see fucked up shit stay apathetic to it and are content to let it continue. Manning might be a traitor, but Manning also exposed horrific war crimes that your government and their army have committed.[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree with the secrets being brought up, that's something completely different when you endanger your allies and brothers and sisters in uniform. Need I remind Manning WASN'T out of the military when she did this.
[QUOTE=The golden;51687003]Not all of us believe something because we're simply told to believe it. Chelsea acted with the best interest of her fellow citizens in mind. The everyday Joes and Janes of America. I don't consider that being a traitor. A traitor would be the person who committed the atrocities in the first place and then hid them.
You're welcome to disagree but that is my take on it.[/QUOTE]
Should I link you the UCMJ article that explains WHAT Manning did wrong, WHAT directly identifies her as traitor?
[url]http://www.ucmj.us/sub-chapter-10-punitive-articles/906a-article-106a-espionage[/url]
[quote](3) A thing refereed to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance or information relating to the national defense.[/quote]
[quote](B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy[/quote]
Documents that not only related to collaborator and interpreters working with ISAF(Coalition Forces), but also operation details that involved US personnel. But hey I'm just a lower enlisted who don't know nothing about what Manning did.
[QUOTE=Stroheim;51685615]Well that was unexpected. I'm sure this will totally not be a very controversial verdict by a major chunk of the Military and Intelligence community.
I wouldn't be surprised if she flees the country to Canada or somewhere, or ends up like Ernesto Miranda and gets shanked in a bar. As soon as she walks out those doors, she is doomed to this.[/QUOTE]
wow you are a very hateful person arent you
We got a lot of armchair nationalists in this thread.
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;51686915]Snowden was no better.
I don't understand how people fell for this myth that these two were anything other than traitorous shitbags:
[url]http://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/hpsci_snowden_review_declassified.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51687104]I don't disagree with the secrets being brought up, that's something completely different when you endanger your allies and brothers and sisters in uniform. Need I remind Manning WASN'T out of the military when she did this.
Should I link you the UCMJ article that explains WHAT Manning did wrong, WHAT directly identifies her as traitor?
[url]http://www.ucmj.us/sub-chapter-10-punitive-articles/906a-article-106a-espionage[/url]
Documents that not only related to collaborator and interpreters working with ISAF(Coalition Forces), but also operation details that involved US personnel. But hey I'm just a lower enlisted who don't know nothing about what Manning did.[/QUOTE]
What about the video in Manning's leak of the civilians and the two Reuters journalists killed by a US helicopter? Or when they fired on the van that showed up to help the wounded? How about the fact that the NSA completely and utterly takes a shit on the fourth amendment by spying on every citizen? How about the suspension of habeas corpus with the continued operation of Guantanamo Bay where innocent people have been tortured and detained without trial? And what about Abdulrahman al-Awlak, a 16 year old American citizen who was extra-judicially killed in Yemen by a drone strike?
Are you going to hold the US government accountable for their own crimes or are you going to just ignore what Manning and Snowden were trying to do? Because I'm not seeing any justice here.
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;51687460]What about the video in Manning's leak of the civilians and the two Reuters journalists killed by a US helicopter?[/QUOTE]
Some members of the group had AK's and RPG's, and nobody was wearing clothing that would identify them as press, press badges were not visible from that distance with that camera. The video quality and distance also lead to the helicopter crew mistaking a camera lens for an RPG, and he group was moving toward US Soldiers and parked Humvees in an area where an attack had happened recently.
I don't blame the helicopter crew for mistaking those guys for insurgents.
[editline]17th January 2017[/editline]
[t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/July_12%2C_2007_Baghdad_airstrike_targets_%281%29.png[/t]
Top and Middle images are men with weapons. Bottom image is a journalist leaning around a corner looking toward US Troops, the camera in his hands is mistaken by the crew as the front of an RPG.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51686951]People like you who condemn whistleblowers are the reason why a lot of people who see fucked up shit stay apathetic to it and are content to let it continue. Manning might be a traitor, but Manning also exposed horrific war crimes that your government and their army have committed.[/QUOTE]
Bin Laden had Manning's leaks on his personal computers in Abbottabad. Congrats you leaked a highly questionable video that's not 100% evidence of war crimes. But you also leaked a fuckton of sensitive information that our enemies were fuckin using against us.
Fuck Manning, she should rot for her negligence.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51687537]Some members of the group had AK's and RPG's, and nobody was wearing clothing that would identify them as press, press badges were not visible from that distance with that camera. The video quality and distance also lead to the helicopter crew mistaking a camera lens for an RPG, and he group was moving toward US Soldiers and parked Humvees in an area where an attack had happened recently.
I don't blame the helicopter crew for mistaking those guys for insurgents.
[editline]17th January 2017[/editline]
[t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/July_12%2C_2007_Baghdad_airstrike_targets_%281%29.png[/t]
Top and Middle images are men with weapons. Bottom image is a journalist leaning around a corner looking toward US Troops, the camera in his hands is mistaken by the crew as the front of an RPG.[/QUOTE]
I don't either, but I do blame them for gunning down that van that showed up to move the injured to a hospital. They were quite clearly unarmed and just trying to help; acting as good Samaritans. Not only that, but there were children in the van who were wounded. Killing the journalist with his escort I can accept, but shooting the van I cannot. They had no justification for shooting it other than that they were "moving the bodies" which is not a just reason at all.
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;51687460]What about the video in Manning's leak of the civilians and the two Reuters journalists killed by a US helicopter? Or when they fired on the van that showed up to help the wounded? How about the fact that the NSA completely and utterly takes a shit on the fourth amendment by spying on every citizen? How about the suspension of habeas corpus with the continued operation of Guantanamo Bay where innocent people have been tortured and detained without trial? And what about Abdulrahman al-Awlak, a 16 year old American citizen who was extra-judicially killed in Yemen by a drone strike?
Are you going to hold the US government accountable for their own crimes or are you going to just ignore what Manning and Snowden were trying to do? Because I'm not seeing any justice here.[/QUOTE]
So Mr.Someguy covered that first part so no need to get into it. Snowden's leaks however were pruned of sensitive information that didn't related to people in high places, nor did it jeopardize anyone's lives, I agree with what Snowden did, his was actually quite noble in goal, but this isn't about Snowden. I don't support or condone any form of torture, and in a case in 2006 or 2008 the prisoners were entitled to receive habeas corpus cases, though not many succeed. Why I have no actual clue, then you have many of these guys arrested based tips so who knows if these weren't pissed off neighbors. That drone strike, I have such little information to form an opinion on so I won't comment on it.
Will I ignore what they done? Of course not, but there's a stark difference in what Snowden did compared to Manning.
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;51686915]Snowden was no better.
I don't understand how people fell for this myth that these two were anything other than traitorous shitbags:
[url]http://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/hpsci_snowden_review_declassified.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
I didn't fall for anything, but i gotta ask, if you were in the position where the government was betraying the american people or committing war crimes, the official channels are known non-options due to all previous official whistleblowers being made examples of, what do you do exactly?
Do you convince yourself its not important, like most do? Would you have commited the war crime yourself because 'merica?
[QUOTE=The golden;51687003]Not all of us believe something because we're simply told to believe it. Chelsea acted with the best interest of her fellow citizens in mind. The everyday Joes and Janes of America. I don't consider that being a traitor. A traitor would be the person who committed the atrocities in the first place and then hid them.
You're welcome to disagree but that is my take on it.[/QUOTE]
Chelsea Manning didn't even know what she took. She just grabbed everything she could and started shopping it around to various news agencies, who all turned her away. Assange took it, though. How is releasing diplomatic cables and gun cam footage looking out for her fellow citizens?
[editline]18th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51687640]I don't either, but I do blame them for gunning down that van that showed up to move the injured to a hospital. They were quite clearly unarmed and just trying to help; acting as good Samaritans. Not only that, but there were children in the van who were wounded. Killing the journalist with his escort I can accept, but shooting the van I cannot. They had no justification for shooting it other than that they were "moving the bodies" which is not a just reason at all.[/QUOTE]
They can't see who's in the van. All they see is a van pulling up to a bunch of insurgents to get them out of there. The driver of the van willingly took those kids into an active combat zone, so that's on him.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;51685705][media]https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713[/media]
Is this still on then or what?[/QUOTE]
[media]https://www.twitter.com/wikileaks/status/821528189625372672[/media]
Thanks Obama. Guess this will be the last thing he does before he leaves office.
[QUOTE=Saxon;51685966]He is? I mean he ran to Russia and they've picked his brain for secrets and goingons at the NSA, his execution was less than stellar.[/QUOTE]
He went to Hong Kong, handed the documents over to journalists, [B][I]deleted his copies of the documents[/I][/B], went to the UN embassy and filed for asylum, and then got stuck in Russia whilst trying to get somewhere else because the US government revoked his passport.
Which part of this is "running to Russia and giving intelligence to them"? The part where he no longer had the documents when he was forced to stay in Russia by the US government?
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;51685614]Not entirely sure I agree with this. She has already been in prison for 7 years though, and they're still making her serve another 5 months so I guess certain charges were commuted and others weren't.[/QUOTE]
If you had read the article, you'd know that those extra 5 months are for acclimatization, finding a place to live and generally getting reintegrated into society.
I don't get why people are acting like this is some great victory for freedom. She directly endangered people by releasing thousands of documents which were directly protecting national security. If she filtered out those that would be endangering people that'd be one thing, but I don't think having a few pieces of evidence of wrongdoings within them all makes her a hero. This sets a pretty bad precedent for people compromising military security.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51687640]I don't either, but I do blame them for gunning down that van that showed up to move the injured to a hospital. They were quite clearly unarmed and just trying to help; acting as good Samaritans. Not only that, but there were children in the van who were wounded. Killing the journalist with his escort I can accept, but shooting the van I cannot. They had no justification for shooting it other than that they were "moving the bodies" which is not a just reason at all.[/QUOTE]
You're making judments on this incident by everything we know after the fact. Put yourselves in the shoes of that helicopter crew. You got bad guys in sight with weapons, they're relatively close to a friendly patrol, and the clearance to fire on them. After the deed is done, a van shows up to move the wounded away. You have no idea whats in that van. Could be more insurgents, or it could just be empty.
Those helo pilots did absolutely nothing wrong. They followed proper rules of engagement. There was no way they could have known that there were children in that van. What happened is a tragedy but it's not a warcrime.
[editline]18th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51687011]This argument is so dumb. "He put lives at risk!!!" Yes, I suppose so but no one actually died except all those brown people in the middle east that no one seems to care about. [/quote]
You can't really prove whether or not the information he leaked got anyone killed. But its nice of you to bring it down to the level of "hurr durr muricans like to kill brown ppl lol".
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51687011]And seriously, if you haven't seen that leaked video, the military guns down children from a helicopter and I guarantee none of those people are rotting in a military prison right now. [/quote]
An attack helicopter shot a group of insurgents, then they got rid of a van that showed up to collect wounded insurgents. It wasn't known until after the fact that there were some Reuters reporters with the insurgents and that the insurgents in the van brought their children with them to a combat zone. The helo pilots in question did nothing wrong.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51687011]If you think putting lives at risk is a justifiable reason to send someone to prison you may as well round up half of the people who drive to work to everyday since their reckless driving is "putting lives at risk."[/QUOTE]
I hate that I hate that I even have to say this, but leaking military intel onto the web where enemies can access it is not comparable to someone driving recklessly, but thanks for trying to trivialize the matter.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;51687011] If you think putting lives at risk is a justifiable reason to send someone to prison you may as well round up half of the people who drive to work to everyday since their reckless driving is "putting lives at risk."[/QUOTE]
You know people go to jail because of reckless driving? You know the definition of reckless is literally doing something without caring about what could result because of it?
By definition you're saying anyone who died,was harmed, or put as risk because of these leaks are the ones who should be blamed. Not the person who published the information without looking over it or having a group of people remove the most sensitive of personal information.
Would people defend manning as strongly if she wasn't trans?
She clearly put her fellow soldiers at risk and violated her oath to the US government. She was court martialed and imprisoned. The "war crimes" that she exposed were perfectly legal under ROE and any reasonable assumption. Even the solitary confinement that she was put into was only done after she kept on trying to kill herself and needed to be put on constant watch. She deserved everything she got and maybe a little bit more. Obama's pardoning her is simply him trying to preserve his legacy after Trump's vow to destroy most of his legacy.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51688958]
You can't really prove whether or not the information he leaked got anyone killed.
[/QUOTE]
That's false actually, at least according to this article and some others like it:
[url]https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130731/15572324025/us-military-admits-no-one-died-because-mannings-leaks.shtml[/url]
And I don't think the US military has any interest in protecting whistleblowers with lying.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51689365]Would people defend manning as strongly if she wasn't trans?
She clearly put her fellow soldiers at risk and violated her oath to the US government. She was court martialed and imprisoned. The "war crimes" that she exposed were perfectly legal under ROE and any reasonable assumption. Even the solitary confinement that she was put into was only done after she kept on trying to kill herself and needed to be put on constant watch. She deserved everything she got and maybe a little bit more. Obama's pardoning her is simply him trying to preserve his legacy after Trump's vow to destroy most of his legacy.[/QUOTE]
A lot of people want Snowden to get a pardon and he's a straight white male, which in this decade is the worst sort of human being in the world. So I don't think Manning being trans has much to do with it if anything at all.
[QUOTE=Bertie;51689400]That's false actually, at least according to this article and some others like it:
[url]https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130731/15572324025/us-military-admits-no-one-died-because-mannings-leaks.shtml[/url]
And I don't think the US military has any interest in protecting whistleblowers with lying.[/QUOTE]
Just because no one did die doesn't mean that it didn't endanger people.
[QUOTE=matt000024;51689405]Just because no one did die doesn't mean that it didn't endanger people.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it didn't. I'm happy that she was in jail for 7 years for betraying the trust of the military she was serving in and I see no reason for her to serve the full sentence. She's not a danger to society.
[QUOTE=Snake7;51685712]She exposed war crimes[/QUOTE]
Nobody disputes that she exposed war crimes, it's the [b]millions[/b] of other documents she leaked that are the issue. The way some people continue to frame this as 'she exposed war crimes, clearly if you oppose her release you believe war crimes should be hidden!' is really aggravating. I'm glad actual war crimes got exposed and I understand that the whistleblowing system was heavily stacked against people like Manning and Snowden, but [i]all the other shit[/i] she released put both American servicemen and local allies in danger while also damaging US diplomatic relations. That's simply [i]not whistleblowing[/i] no matter how you slice it.
At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I can't look at someone indiscriminately gunning down thirty people in the street and call it 'vigilante justice' because one of the victims happened to be a serial killer, and I can't look at someone indiscriminately releasing millions of sensitive documents to the world and call it 'whistleblowing' because a few of them happened to document wrongdoing. Collateral damage in the pursuit of noble ideals isn't something you can just brush off, and in Manning's case there was a hell of a lot of collateral. That's what makes it reckless, negligent, and above all else illegal.
Nobody (that we're aware of) died? No diplomatic effect (that we're aware of) occurred? Completely beside the point. There was no way for her to know what the effects would be when she [i]didn't even know what she was leaking[/i]. That's the act of deliberate negligence that deserves punishment.
I don't believe Obama thinks she's innocent as many here seem to, but rather that commuting her sentence now would be more fair than leaving her in the hands of the Trump administration.
[QUOTE=bitches;51685563]the common theme of purposefully misgendering Manning during these arguments makes it pretty clear why there's such a hate-boner for her[/QUOTE]
I have never misgendered her, I strongly oppose the conditions she's been held under, and my opposition to Manning has nothing to do with her transgender status. Some people may deliberately misgender her as a petty act of belittlement but it does not in any way, shape or form invalidate the legitimate grievances I and others have with her actions.
[QUOTE=Mattk50;51687820]I didn't fall for anything, but i gotta ask, if you were in the position where the government was betraying the american people or committing war crimes, the official channels are known non-options due to all previous official whistleblowers being made examples of, what do you do exactly?
Do you convince yourself its not important, like most do? Would you have commited the war crime yourself because 'merica?[/QUOTE]
I don't fucking know.
I think in that position, I'd take my chances with the official channels. If that didn't work, I'd maybe, [I]maybe[/I] release select information.
I sure as hell wouldn't download millions of random files and leak them because I'm a baby about workplace disputes. People in the IC had their PII leaked because of that chucklefuck.
[QUOTE=Bertie;51689400]That's false actually, at least according to this article and some others like it:
[url]https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130731/15572324025/us-military-admits-no-one-died-because-mannings-leaks.shtml[/url]
And I don't think the US military has any interest in protecting whistleblowers with lying.
[/QUOTE]
For one;
[quote] [b]The retired general added that some of these contacts could not be found[/b], others had died before the WikiLeaks disclosures, and others had been insurgents rather than cooperators with coalition forces.[/quote]
MIA is not much different than KIA. Furthermore, Manning is not a whistle blower, she is just a straight up traitor. If she had the intention to be a whistleblower, then she could have followed whistleblower channels that are already in place for exposing warcrimes and the like.
Also,
[quote] Like Carr, Kirchhofer testified only about potential danger to foreign nationals who met with U.S. forces.[/quote]
The article you use in question only covers human intelligence sources, not US troops or it's allies.
[editline]18th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bertie;51689416]I didn't say it didn't. I'm happy that she was in jail for 7 years for betraying the trust of the military she was serving in and I see no reason for her to serve the full sentence. She's not a danger to society.[/QUOTE]
It's a punishment dood, she hasn't been a danger to society since she actually leaked the information. People shouldn't be let off of treason just because they aren't a danger to society. She still committed an immensely huge crime.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
