Victory for paid mod boycotters: Valve removes payment feature from TES: Skyrim area of the Steam Wo - Polidicks

[QUOTE=bdd458;47618475]I already spend enough fucking money on games and their DLC, I don't need to add the costs of mods in top of it. The consumer weighs far more than the producer.[/QUOTE] You [b]do not deserve the product of the efforts of someone who does not desire to give their product away for free.[/b] You do not deserve jack shit in the first place. A modder does not HAVE to charge money for their content.

As a consumer I do deserve shit, I deserve to not be shit on by greedy fucks who want to nickel and dime as much as they can out of consumers, through any means.

[QUOTE=bdd458;47618499]As a consumer I do deserve shit, I deserve to not be shit on by greedy fucks who want to nickel and dime as much as they can out of consumers, through any means.[/QUOTE] Until now you were a consumer of free products with regards to mods -- you do not deserve free things. Nobody deserves the free product of someone else's work, what the fuck is wrong with you to think like that?

[QUOTE=geel9;47618469]How the fuck can you people claim that because people used to work for free, they [b]have to from now on?[/b] "They can join a game development studio" OH THANK GOD! It's everyone's DREAM to join a shitty overworking underpaying studio! "It used to be free" get the FUCK over yourselves. All you care about is the ability to get free content without having to pay. If a modder wants to work from the goodness of their heart, they can. If they don't want to, they don't fucking have to, you selfish conniving dickbags.[/QUOTE] As others have said, modding games is not a sustainable way of earning a living (especially at a 25% cut holy hell), and I don't think people should be given the false impression that it could be. Here's something to understand. People have been modding games since the first opportunity, which was about 2 decades ago. Mods have been created in [I]droves[/I] for enjoyment, bugfixing, hilarity...whatever someone feels like doing. However, they have NEVER been for payment. Sure you'll see people accepting donations or the occasional 'Total Conversion' being moved to a paid model, but those are far and away different from what 95% of all mods are. This uproar has [I]nothing[/I] to do with modders "not deserving" to get paid or people being cheapasses, this is fear that the mod community will turn into a shitfest, obsessed with making a quick buck instead of doing it for the sake of it. And y'know what? It took a matter of HOURS for that fear to be proven correct.

I did like the idea of modders getting paid for their work, but the rest of the trouble that came from the idea made me skeptical of the whole thing. If they bring it back as a pay-what-you-want system, I'd be totally down with it. That said, I'm gonna be disappointed when everyone just pulls the pants down and hops back on Valve's lap like nothing happened. It's good they responded to criticism, but they made the problem to begin with,

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;47618503]As others have said, modding games is not a sustainable way of earning a living (especially at a 25% cut holy hell), and I don't think people should be given the false impression that it could be. Here's something to understand. People have been modding games since the first opportunity, which was about 2 decades ago. Mods have been created in [I]droves[/I] for enjoyment, bugfixing, hilarity...whatever someone feels like doing. However, they have NEVER been for payment. Sure you'll see people accepting donations or the occasional 'Total Conversion' being moved to a paid model, but those are far and away different from what 95% of all mods are. This uproar has [I]nothing[/I] to do with modders "not deserving" to get paid or people being cheapasses, this is fear that the mod community will turn into a shitfest, obsessed with making a quick buck instead of doing it for the sake of it. And y'know what? It took a matter of HOURS for that fear to be proven correct.[/QUOTE] Modding isn't a sustainable way to earn a living [b]because up until now modders couldn't fucking sell their products.[/b] Even if modders don't make a living off their sales it doesn't mean you are entitled to them not being able to sell it at all. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] The 25% cut is far too low but that doesn't mean that 0% is better.

[QUOTE=Skyward;47618513]That said, I'm gonna be disappointed when everyone just pulls the pants down and hops back on Valve's lap like nothing happened. It's good they responded to criticism, but they made the problem to begin with,[/QUOTE] It'll happen considering there's enough people who just don't care until it's too late.

[QUOTE=geel9;47618525]Modding isn't a sustainable way to earn a living [b]because up until now modders couldn't fucking sell their products.[/b] Even if modders don't make a living off their sales it doesn't mean you are entitled to them not being able to sell it at all. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] The 25% cut is far too low but that doesn't mean that 0% is better.[/QUOTE] Modding as a career is not viable even in the dream world you live in.

Modders are [I]modifying[/I] someone elses game, that is never, ever going to be a fucking industry and if you think it is you're delusional. And you say I'm not entitled to anything: I pay the 60 dollars for the fucking base game, and then in Skyrim's case another $45 dollars in fucking DLC and you're going to tell me I'm not entitled to anything? I already spent fucking $105 dollars on their fucking game, and you're telling me I just have to sit down and take the ass pounding from Valve and Bethesda? Yeah, no I'm entitled to not being nickeled and dimed even more. Jesus chirst I finally see why people fucking complain so much about DLC and Microtransactions, because it evolved from innocuous shit like "oh but we're just helping the creators" to a lot of the bullshit a lot of companies pull now.

[QUOTE=geel9;47618525]Modding isn't a sustainable way to earn a living [b]because up until now modders couldn't fucking sell their products.[/b] Even if modders don't make a living off their sales it doesn't mean you are entitled to them not being able to sell it at all. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] The 25% cut is far too low but that doesn't mean that 0% is better.[/QUOTE] Modding isn't a sustainable way to earn a living because it isn't a viable career. Also can you stop using Bold on every single line you write?

[QUOTE=geel9;47618525]Modding isn't a sustainable way to earn a living [b]because up until now modders couldn't fucking sell their products.[/b] Even if modders don't make a living off their sales it doesn't mean you are entitled to them not being able to sell it at all. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] The 25% cut is far too low but that doesn't mean that 0% is better.[/QUOTE] No you idiot, modding just isn't a sustainable way to earn a living. Think about the most popular modifications for games you've ever ran across. That's a pittance of the community playing the game. Even the most popular modifications for games would be significantly cut down in users when you increase the price to a penny alone just because of who uses the mod. A large fraction happen to be kids that can't pay for every little shit you develop.

[QUOTE=geel9;47618525]Modding isn't a sustainable way to earn a living [b]because up until now modders couldn't fucking sell their products.[/b] Even if modders don't make a living off their sales it doesn't mean you are entitled to them not being able to sell it at all. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] The 25% cut is far too low but that doesn't mean that 0% is better.[/QUOTE] Just because they don't get money directly from their work doesn't mean they don't get paid at all. Like I said, modders get much more money from donations than they would from Valve's shitty excuse for a service. One of the game devs of Dwarf Fortress has been making a living developing Dwarf Fortress for FREE off donations alone. If that isn't dedication from both the producer and the consumer, I don't know what is.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47618543]Modding as a career is not viable even in the dream world you live in.[/QUOTE] So? Even if it's not, that means you're entitled to their content for free? My girlfriend is a photographer, and she used to do it as a hobby -- for free. Nowadays, she does photoshoots every so often, and she charges money, but she can't make a living off of it. Does she have to work for free? [QUOTE=bdd458;47618546]Modders are [I]modifying[/I] someone elses game, that is never, ever going to be a fucking industry and if you think it is you're delusional. And you say I'm not entitled to anything: I pay the 60 dollars for the fucking base game, and then in Skyrim's case another $45 dollars in fucking DLC and you're going to tell me I'm not entitled to anything? I already spent fucking $105 dollars on their fucking game, and you're telling me I just have to sit down and take the ass pounding from Valve and Bethesda? Yeah, no I'm entitled to not being nickeled and dimed even more. Jesus chirst I finally see why people fucking complain so much about DLC and Microtransactions, because it evolved from innocuous shit like "oh but we're just helping the creators" to a lot of the bullshit a lot of companies pull now.[/QUOTE] Holy shit Valve and Bethesda are NOT THE ONES DOING THE WORK FOR CREATING THESE MODS. You never purchased the right to use these mods for free. They are being done by other people on their own time. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Brobattington;47618562]Just because they don't get money directly from their work doesn't mean they don't get paid at all. Like I said, modders get much more money from donations than they would from Valve's shitty excuse for a service. One of the game devs of Dwarf Fortress has been making a living developing Dwarf Fortress for FREE off donations alone. If that isn't dedication from both the producer and the consumer, I don't know what is.[/QUOTE] Dwarf Fortress is an incredibly popular game. It is on an entirely different level. It's like saying that because Pewdiepie makes money, every other shitty YouTube letsplayer makes money too.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47618543]Modding as a career is not viable even in the dream world you live in.[/QUOTE] It's still not logical to say that if modding can't be a career, it has to be free. I know a lot of people who do commission painting for wargamers, it's not something you can do as a living but getting paid to do your hobby is fun for a lot of folks even if it winds up being below minimum wage. Arguments about whether it's a viable living or not are missing the point- it's not about whether you can sustain yourself doing nothing but modding, it's about whether you have the right to ask compensation for your time and work.

[QUOTE=geel9;47618566]So? Even if it's not, that means you're entitled to their content for free? My girlfriend is a photographer, and she used to do it as a hobby -- for free. Nowadays, she does photoshoots every so often, and she charges money, but she can't make a living off of it. Does she have to work for free? [/QUOTE] Apples to oranges comparison, you clearly don't know the pretend penny market you're trying to fabricate like Valve.

Taking photographs is a different field entirely so much so that the analogy you gave is fucking worthless

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47618576]Taking photographs is a different field entirely so much so that the analogy you gave is fucking worthless[/QUOTE] Why do you deserve to receive people's work for free if they don't want it to be free?

GMod has an interesting paid mod community. You essentially generate no income from it. It's a great example of a waste of time that fucks everyone over except the people running the operation. I make more in an hour than most people on that site make in a month for instance. You know how I make that money, by not developing shit, so I could become a professional. Mods should be gateways to career opportunities, not be the career.

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;47618592]GMod has an interesting paid mod community. You essentially generate no income from it. It's a great example of a waste of time that fucks everyone over except the people running the operation.[/QUOTE] So that means that gmod modders [b]have[/b] to give their work out for free?

Some hobbies are more stable in employment and jobs than others, modding seems to be more unstable than being a youtube animator. But Patreon is looking to be a good place for Modders to get money if they can provide good incentives.

[QUOTE=geel9;47618525]Modding isn't a sustainable way to earn a living [b]because up until now modders couldn't fucking sell their products.[/b] Even if modders don't make a living off their sales it doesn't mean you are entitled to them not being able to sell it at all. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] The 25% cut is far too low but that doesn't mean that 0% is better.[/QUOTE] I understand, but you're missing the point. There's this attitude out there right now that was in defense of what Valve was attempting, and it's this (very idealistic) idea that if modders are allowed to charge for their mods, there won't actually be any change other than people earning money who previously couldn't. What ACTUALLY happened was: - Shitty reskins and no-effort models were thrown on the workshop charging ridiculous amounts relative to the content's quality. - Items were released UNFINISHED, but still cost money. - Items were BROKEN, and still cost money. - Legal/Financial disputes erupted over who owned what content (especially on "backbone mods" like SkyUI and FNIS). - There was absolutely no protection to the buyer beyond a pathetic 24-hour refund, after which it was "Sucks to be you" if something went wrong. - Modders [B]eagerly[/B] ripped people off and screwed over people who owned free versions of mods, if they even left the free version as an option. And a whole heap of other problems. Now look, there IS some merit towards the idea of modders being allowed to charge money for what they create, and I think it's worth looking into. However, Valve and Bethesda went about it in quite possibly the worst possible way anyone could have ever done it. Why? Here's a few reasons: - Zero quality control because these mods could simply be thrown onto the workshop without a team of testers/QA to check that the mods even work in the first place, much less are worth what is being charged. - No option for true "Pay What You Want." It was either $0 or whatever Valve had as a minimum. - The splitting of the payment was absurd, with Valve and the developer taking 75% of earnings for something they didn't create themselves. All of that is fact, because it actually happened. Much as I would like to think the mod community would remain exactly the same if people were allowed to profit off of their mods...it clearly doesn't work, at least not with the model we were presented. I mean c'mon man. Think back to Unreal Tournament and the like, and how many modifications, characters, new levels...shit, entirely new games were spawned from the community, all of which were and are still free for everyone. Do you really think people did that out of expecting payment? Hell no, they did it because they liked it and the community's appreciation was enough for them.

I already paid 105 fucking dollars for the game, and I'm not going to be paying for fucking mods on top of that. I don't care how much fucking blood, sweat and tears went into making that fucking mod, you're not entitled to [I]my[/I] money for everything you fucking do in life. Get over it. I volunteered at a museum for a summer, doing a lot of various shit. Accessioning items, building cabinets, setting up the gift shop, and various things. Yet I don't feel I'm entitled for money for doing ANY of that, because it's not a fucking job. And you know what? Because of my experience doing that I got a job at a museum. Modding is no different.

[QUOTE=catbarf;47618574]It's still not logical to say that if modding can't be a career, it has to be free. I know a lot of people who do commission painting for wargamers, it's not something you can do as a living but getting paid to do your hobby is fun for a lot of folks even if it winds up being below minimum wage. Arguments about whether it's a viable living or not are missing the point- it's not about whether you can sustain yourself doing nothing but modding, it's about whether you have the right to ask compensation for your time and work.[/QUOTE] So you've changed your tune from she you said it was viable then? Sure they deserve to be paid for work. It's just that nothing they do is really worth a price so high for so little. In 3 days almost every modded priced themselves right out of the market Should the unofficial Skyrim patch be behind a paywall? A nearly essential bug fix, is a mod. Why should that be paid for?

[QUOTE=geel9;47618597]So that means that gmod modders [b]have[/b] to give their work out for free?[/QUOTE] I'm sure as fuck not going to give anyone in that community 5 bucks when I could spend it on coffee instead. It would be produced at a higher quality, too.

[QUOTE=geel9;47618589]Why do you deserve to receive people's work for free if they don't want it to be free?[/QUOTE] That is not what I said and a mature argument wouldn't try and stick words in my mouth.

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;47618602]I understand, but you're missing the point. There's this attitude out there right now that was in defense of what Valve was attempting, and it's this (very idealistic) idea that if modders are allowed to charge for their mods, there won't actually be any change other than people earning money who previously couldn't. What ACTUALLY happened was: - Shitty reskins and no-effort models were thrown on the workshop charging ridiculous amounts relative to the content's quality. - Items were released UNFINISHED, but still cost money. - Items were BROKEN, and still cost money. - Legal/Financial disputes erupted over who owned what content (especially on "backbone mods" like SkyUI and FNIS). - There was absolutely no protection to the buyer beyond a pathetic 24-hour refund, after which it was "Sucks to be you" if something went wrong. - Modders [B]eagerly[/B] ripped people off and screwed over people who owned free versions of mods, if they even left the free version as an option. And a whole heap of other problems. Now look, there IS some merit towards the idea of modders being allowed to charge money for what they create, and I think it's worth looking into. However, Valve and Bethesda went about it in quite possibly the worst possible way anyone could have ever done it. Why? Here's a few reasons: - Zero quality control because these mods could simply be thrown onto the workshop without a team of testers/QA to check that the mods even work in the first place, much less are worth what is being charged. - No option for true "Pay What You Want." It was either $0 or whatever Valve had as a minimum. - The splitting of the payment was absurd, with Valve and the developer taking 75% of earnings for something they didn't create themselves. All of that is fact, because it actually happened. Much as I would like to think the mod community would remain exactly the same if people were allowed to profit off of their mods...it clearly doesn't work, at least not with the model we were presented. I mean c'mon man. Think back to Unreal Tournament and the like, and how many modifications, characters, new levels...shit, entirely new games were spawned from the community, all of which were and are still free for everyone. Do you really think people did that out of expecting payment? Hell no, they did it because they liked it and the community's appreciation was enough for them.[/QUOTE] You raise some legitimate issues and they do need to be fixed. The 25% cut is far too low (it is, however, up from 0%), and the issues of copyright infringement and game compatibility are real -- but there are already laws to protect from copyright infringement. That's not a new scenario. In addition, just because shit mods exist for payment doesn't mean you have to buy them, nor does it mean every paid mod is shit. Just because shitty, unsafe cars exist for sale doesn't mean all cars have to be banned from being sold. That's absurd. Finally, pay-what-you-want [b]does not work.[/b] 99% of people will choose to pay $0, and it does not represent the best interests of a modder. If pay-what-you-want was an [b]option alongside a flat fee[/b] that would be perfectly acceptable but the idea on its own is no better than forcing mods to be free. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;47618618]I'm sure as fuck not going to give anyone in that community 5 bucks when I could spend it on coffee instead. It would be produced at a higher quality, too.[/QUOTE] You don't have to. They don't have to give you shit for free, and you don't have to buy their shit. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] It's a basic fucking concept dude come on [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=bdd458;47618604]I already paid 105 fucking dollars for the game, and I'm not going to be paying for fucking mods on top of that. I don't care how much fucking blood, sweat and tears went into making that fucking mod, you're not entitled to [I]my[/I] money for everything you fucking do in life. Get over it. I volunteered at a museum for a summer, doing a lot of various shit. Accessioning items, building cabinets, setting up the gift shop, and various things. Yet I don't feel I'm entitled for money for doing ANY of that, because it's not a fucking job. And you know what? Because of my experience doing that I got a job at a museum. Modding is no different.[/QUOTE] You don't have to buy mods then. They're not entitled to your money, because you don't have to pay. How fucking selfish do you have to be to say a thing like this?

Shitty unsafe cars don't get sold. Here, shitty mods do, and we have no recourse. Do you even understand the issue?

[QUOTE=geel9;47618632]You raise some legitimate issues and they do need to be fixed. The 25% cut is far too low (it is, however, up from 0%), and the issues of copyright infringement and game compatibility are real -- but there are already laws to protect from copyright infringement. That's not a new scenario. In addition, just because shit mods exist for payment doesn't mean you have to buy them, nor does it mean every paid mod is shit. Just because shitty, unsafe cars exist for sale doesn't mean all cars have to be banned from being sold. That's absurd. Finally, pay-what-you-want [b]does not work.[/b] 99% of people will choose to pay $0, and it does not represent the best interests of a modder. If pay-what-you-want was an [b]option alongside a flat fee[/b] that would be perfectly acceptable but the idea on its own is no better than forcing mods to be free. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] You don't have to. They don't have to give you shit for free, and you don't have to buy their shit. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] It's a basic fucking concept dude come on[/QUOTE] Can you explain why donations don't work, but for some reason people will willingly spend a dollar or two on a mod if they're forced to? If someone isn't going to pay, they're not going to pay, period. Locking it behind a paywall just means less people use what the modder put time and effort into.

Selfish? Not at all. Tired of being taken to the cleaners by greedy fucks

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47618653]Selfish? Not at all. Tired of being taken to the cleaners by greedy fucks[/QUOTE] YOU ARE NOT FUCKING ENTITLED TO FREE THINGS HOLY FUCK [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Threadshitting / all caps posting bozo" - Craptasket))[/highlight]