Victory for paid mod boycotters: Valve removes payment feature from TES: Skyrim area of the Steam Wo - Polidicks

[QUOTE=geel9;47619139]I do not believe that a broken game should be allowed to be released in the first place.[/QUOTE] But they have been, always have been, and likely always will be. That's not an argument, that's a statement from an idealized reality. Argue with it, accept it, or deny it, don't just dance around it like everything else you do. If you can't learn to confront ideas and issues and think about them in a complex manner without getting pissy, you've got a problem.

[QUOTE=geel9;47619139]I do not believe that a broken game should be allowed to be released in the first place.[/QUOTE] And the difference between shitty, low-effort games and shitty, low-effort mods is...?

[QUOTE=geel9;47619147]I've already posted repeatedly that I believe there should be strict mod review policies.[/QUOTE] carried out by who? valve said "It's not our job" meaning it's us, the community, who have to do so, and have to do so with our own money to do nothing but curate something THAT IS NOT OURS.

[QUOTE=Handsome Matt;47619122]Just over 100 developers, with our most successful developer making ~$20,000 in the past 6 months.[/QUOTE] Impressive!

[QUOTE=geel9;47619139]I do not believe that a broken game should be allowed to be released in the first place.[/QUOTE] And yet, Assassin's Creed Unity is a thing. It doesn't matter what you believe, companies will still try their best to make a quick buck at your expense.

[QUOTE=residntevl;47619135]When you do start putting your posts behind paywalls so we can ignore them? We honestly don't deserve such quality posts for free, you worked hard on them.[/QUOTE] oh my god

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47619160]carried out by who? valve said "It's not our job" meaning it's us, the community, who have to do so, and have to do so with our own money to do nothing but curate something THAT IS NOT OURS.[/QUOTE] And I disagree with that. I think that's one of the very few legitimate issues that plagues the concept of sold mods. That's not to say that low-quality mods shouldn't be released -- it's a free market -- simply that mods need to be guaranteed to [b]work.[/b] I think a good way to implement that would be having refunds be handled with real cash and marking a mod for manual review if too many people refund it. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=residntevl;47619135]When you do start putting your posts behind paywalls so we can ignore them? We honestly don't deserve such quality posts for free, you worked hard on them.[/QUOTE] In your ridiculous example I'm not asking for money.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47619074]Try it, you have the ability to do so now as it is. Open up a games studio that doesn't make games, but alters other games. Try and sell that idea and tell me about all the legal troubles and issues you run into.[/QUOTE] ? This is exactly what Valve did, they made a platform that pays modders for their work. I don't know why you bring up legal troubles; obviously paid modding has to be done with the agreement of the game's rightsholder. Like Valve did with Bethesda.

[QUOTE=geel9;47619183]And I disagree with that. I think that's one of the very few legitimate issues that plagues the concept of sold mods. That's not to say that low-quality mods shouldn't be released -- it's a free market -- simply that mods need to be guaranteed to [b]work.[/b] I think a good way to implement that would be having refunds be handled with real cash and marking a mod for manual review if too many people refund it.[/QUOTE] And maybe that's a valid way to deal with it, but the issue is, we're not going to get that from Valve. Free market means wild west to me, anything goes, and you don't have a right to complain in a free market, just vote with your wallet. I don't want that for mods, and I truly think if you gave a shit, you'd realize that this ends up hurting the whole community in the long term.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47619160]carried out by who? valve said "It's not our job" meaning it's us, the community, who have to do so, and have to do so with our own money to do nothing but curate something THAT IS NOT OURS.[/QUOTE] I feel like moderation is a thing that should (have been) carried out by the game developer. I think this is already how it works on free workshops. It's one way Bethesda could have at least [I]somewhat[/I] justified the massive cut they took on mods.

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;47619173]And yet, Assassin's Creed Unity is a thing. It doesn't matter what you believe, companies will still try their best to make a quick buck at your expense.[/QUOTE] This would be solved if Valve had an actual refund policy (and some quality control).

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47619192]And maybe that's a valid way to deal with it, but the issue is, we're not going to get that from Valve. Free market means wild west to me, anything goes, and you don't have a right to complain in a free market, just vote with your wallet. I don't want that for mods, and I truly think if you gave a shit, you'd realize that this ends up hurting the whole community in the long term.[/QUOTE] That's not what free market means, though.

[QUOTE=geel9;47619036]I don't make money off mods whatsoever, nor do I wish to. However, yes, if a game is broken and it requires a paid mod to fix it -- that game will probably not sell well. If it does, and people do purchase the mod -- good for the mod creator. I do think there should be moral and legal ramifications for such a practice, mind you.[/QUOTE] And what kind of legal ramifications is that going to entail since literally no one of those who hold any power over the issue is going to be interested in stopping it? Who, developer studio? Who [b]profit[/b] from this shit? This is a serious concern. To this day there're community-driven bug-fix projects for Skyrim. Even without profiting from it, Bethesda has made about zero moves to make patches to address those issues. Given the ability to profit from it will only further worsen the already existing problem, and that part is crucial: no developer will ever allow people to sell mods without cutting them a share, it just won't happen. No cut to developers - no paid modding. And that cut is completely unacceptable, it will inevitably lead to shit practices. So yeah, the only way modders can get paid for mods is donation, simple as that. At the very least until there's a platform for such a thing. Steam is clearly not the way, and there's nothing else in sight. And it is not the modders who are the weak link in the chain, it's publishers/developers.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47619192]And maybe that's a valid way to deal with it, but the issue is, we're not going to get that from Valve. Free market means wild west to me, anything goes, and you don't have a right to complain in a free market, just vote with your wallet. I don't want that for mods, and I truly think if you gave a shit, you'd realize that this ends up hurting the whole community in the long term.[/QUOTE] He realises he just doesn't care. He's basically arguing for a system built on "Fuck you, got mine!" Of course he doesn't care.

[QUOTE=geel9;47619203]That's not what free market means, though.[/QUOTE] Laissez Faire, Free Market, free from regulations. So unless we have different concepts of what a "free market" is, yes it is

Hey guys, Valve should charge us 25 cents everytime we launch Steam since it's their service and they worked hard on it, they have a right to charge for it :)

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;47619213]He realises he just doesn't care. He's basically arguing for a system built on "Fuck you, got mine!" Of course he doesn't care.[/QUOTE] I disagree. I think it's better for the mod community in the long run if people are able to work without having to spend only free time on their content. People always have the ability to work for free and release things without charging. That won't change. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=bdd458;47619217]Hey guys, Valve should charge us 25 cents everytime we launch Steam since it's their service and they worked hard on it, they have a right to charge for it :)[/QUOTE] They do have that right. That's the thing. It's just a bad move and people wouldn't use Steam. Just like people won't buy paid mods if they're not worth it. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] That said they'd have to provide some mechanism to fully refund all previous purchases or access them without your Steam account -- but that's a different issue.

[QUOTE=bdd458;47619217]Hey guys, Valve should charge us 25 cents everytime we launch Steam since it's their service and they worked hard on it, they have a right to charge for it :)[/QUOTE] Hey, why not? I mean they do have to pay to maintain servers and pay a collective of developers who don't make games. Why shouldn't Steam be a paid service? 5 bucks a month, why not? Pay more to unlock more social features! That's a great IDEA ISN'T IT GEEL.

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;47619230]Hey, why not? I mean they do have to pay to maintain servers and pay a collective of developers who don't make games. Why shouldn't Steam be a paid service? 5 bucks a month, why not? Pay more to unlock more social features! That's a great IDEA ISN'T IT GEEL.[/QUOTE] No, it's a terrible idea. They just have the right to do it.

[QUOTE=geel9;47619225]I disagree. I think it's better for the mod community in the long run if people are able to work without having to spend only free time on their content. People always have the ability to work for free and release things without charging. That won't change.[/QUOTE] But the atmosphere in which their work will be released will change and that change will cause them to change to fit in, or maximize. I really don't see free mods sticking around too often in an atmosphere like that. People don't want to be undervalued, and by giving yourself away for free in a costly market place, you're showing you have no self worth. who's going to value your work then?

I want this to be a thing so when people's accounts are compromised Valve doesn't have to do anything since they don't pay a support division.

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;47619230]Hey, why not? I mean they do have to pay to maintain servers and pay a collective of developers who don't make games. Why shouldn't Steam be a paid service? 5 bucks a month, why not? Pay more to unlock more social features! That's a great IDEA ISN'T IT GEEL.[/QUOTE] 20 dollars a month gives you an unlimited friends list size.

I can see it now.

If you pay 5 more dollars, you get a special autographed gaben dakimakura, or however the fuck that's spelled.

Upgrade now to unlock the ability to have more than 10 games on your account, that bandwith costs us lots of money!!!!

[QUOTE=bdd458;47619255]Upgrade now to unlock the ability to have more than 10 games on your account, that bandwith costs us lots of money!!!![/QUOTE] Woops, reached the download limit for the month - Don't try and download over a gigabyte next time! That'll be 10 dollars to uncap it for the rest of the week, though!

Steam is already driving revenue by selling games. Guess who can't currently? Mod creators. And these are all examples of things Steam can do (barring the fact that they made retroactive binding agreements). People just would stop using Steam.

[QUOTE=bdd458;47619255]Upgrade now to unlock the ability to have more than 10 games on your account, that bandwith costs us lots of money!!!![/QUOTE] $5 per Email and $10 per support ticket, since apparently that costs [b]lots[/b] to maintain and it doesn't even work. Imagine how much it would cost it did anything (probably way less).

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47619237]But the atmosphere in which their work will be released will change and that change will cause them to change to fit in, or maximize. I really don't see free mods sticking around too often in an atmosphere like that. People don't want to be undervalued, and by giving yourself away for free in a costly market place, you're showing you have no self worth. who's going to value your work then?[/QUOTE] This atmosphere could have some positive effects too. Imagine professionally-made third-party expansions and DLC. (I can't see that happen if the modders only get 25% though.)

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47618979]Catbarf, you're arguing in order to get a better working, less glitchy game, I should have to pay out several times to get there[/QUOTE] Firstly, if this were the inevitable outcome, Apple and Google would be releasing broken iOS and Android software and just relying on the community to fix it. That isn't the case by a long shot. Most people don't use mods- I think Bethesda's latest stats said fewer than 10% of players [I]ever[/I] downloaded any Skyrim mods- and are only ever going to see the vanilla game. If they're deliberately releasing broken software, they're already screwed. Second, [I]why on earth[/I] would you be dumb enough to buy a $60 game if you know you'll need to pump more money into just to get playable? If Bethesda wants to lean on their modders to make the game playable, why would you support that business model? At the very least, why not wait and see if there's a free unofficial patch? I'm sure that with the 'community spirit' people keep bringing up, there's a substantial number of people who would do that sort of work for free. And when it really comes down to it- if a team of five or ten people gets together and spends months fixing every last problem with a game and turning it into a slick, polished, AAA production rather than a buggy mess, I don't mind paying a few dollars for it. Your mileage may vary. I understand that not everybody has disposable income, and an effective increase in the price of games sucks. But as a consumer I don't think I have any right to argue that nobody can charge for that caliber of work solely because I'm used to getting it for free. [QUOTE=bdd458;47618988]Should I demand that the museums and libraries I've volunteered at give me financial compensation for the hard work I've done for them? No I did that for free and don't deserve compensation for it. You don't need to get paid for everything you do, or make, in life.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=bdd458;47619004]I did that for free because I enjoyed it and enjoy helping others, modding is no different in that modders, in general, enjoy making games better or different for as many people as possible; not making a quick buck.[/QUOTE] What you're basically doing is saying that because you enjoy volunteering at museums and libraries for free, that nobody else can ever ask to get paid to work at a museum or library. Not just [I]your[/I] museum or library, but prevent any museum or library from ever paying someone to work there because they're [I]ruining[/I] the volunteer spirit. I don't need to get paid for everything I do or make in life. But [b]you[/b] do not get to decide for me what I am allowed to get paid for. You're advocating an arbitrary restriction on the simple ideal of being able to decide how much your time is worth, for the sake of preserving your hobby. I can't think of any industry where that's held up as legitimate.