Victory for paid mod boycotters: Valve removes payment feature from TES: Skyrim area of the Steam Wo - Polidicks

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;47620797]Yeah, it provides incentive. It provides incentive to make the maximum amount of profit for the least amount of work [I]at least[/I] as much as it is an incentive for a job well done. You need only look at how the Skyrim workshop started to see how true that is. Passion is what's important to make a mod great. And you know what, we've gotten by 20 [B]years[/B] on pretty much passion alone. There should be more avenues to support mod creators, but I firmly believe that mods should remain free for pretty much anything short of total conversions and the like, or like the upcoming Unreal Tournament, the game should be built with this business model in mind where you basically pay for the content you want and that's your game.[/QUOTE] I partly agree. I feel that modders should be able to charge for mods, but not shoehorned as hell in. The cuts were absolutely ridiculous which goes to show the only reason this was added was for Bethesda to add to their endless pockets. (The valve cut really wasn't that bad considering they have to pay card processing fees and the like.)

A lot of people in this thread have the wrong idea, and are blatantly expressing their opinion as if it were fact.

[QUOTE=Requiemare;47621024]A lot of people in this thread have the wrong idea, and are blatantly expressing their opinion as if it were fact.[/QUOTE] If you care to explain or extrapolate on that then you'll be adding to this topic, as of this post though you're just casting judgement on other people without reason or logic to back you.

[QUOTE=Requiemare;47621024]A lot of people in this thread have the wrong idea, and are blatantly expressing their opinion as if it were fact.[/QUOTE] This is something we can all agree on!

[t]http://i.imgur.com/H2Qoudd.png[/t]

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;47621043][t]http://i.imgur.com/H2Qoudd.png[/t][/QUOTE] [url=http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2009/1/cj29n1-12.pdf]Link[/url] to the moral hazard thing, really is an interesting read

[QUOTE=Map in a box;47620141] Oh, and I did answer your question, just apparently not to your liking. [/QUOTE] Your "Answer" [quote]Because you have the choice to get a mod that someone put effort into by paying for it or going elsewhere. Same reason the games themselves are charged for. [/quote] Still not directly answering the question and swerving around it, it does not say how this doesn't effect consumers. You are paying more for a game on features that are "optional" but make the game better. Anyways I just wanted to touch on your statement The argument "You don't have to buy it" is total bullshit and you know it. You are once again assuming good faith, you are assuming that free mods will remain high quality, you are assuming that customers will want a half-finished game when given the option to be more complete, you are assuming that the person who makes the mod is actually putting effort into it, you are assuming that the modder is being paid for their mod, you are assuming that modders are put up to the same standards that developers are. You are assuming that all customers will be informed enough to make an informed purchase, you are assuming uninformed people will simply ignore it. Your entire "answer" is entirely hypothetical and assumes both modder and consumer are 100% perfectly knowledgeable and have good intentions. There is a bloody hell of a lot of reasons the microtransactions argument has been blown to pieces time and time again, and you don't help it. Whether you like it or not it is going to effect consumers, stop assuming that everybody 100% knows which mods are good to buy and which ones aren't. If you want to defend the idea of paying for mods (community-made DLC) then justify the systems that are put into place to help people make their own DLC. Unreal's engine is perfect, nobody is arguing that modders shouldn't be paid, rather that valve's system is incredibly stupid, and that in your perfect world, valve is 100% good. Otherwise, you are just saying "any money is good money." This system directly supports "quantity over quality" which means modders will be keen to release smaller, pricier mods then larger ones, since those do not garner enough cash, even at the prices. What this causes, is something called "Market over-saturation." Basically, nobody gets cash because there are so many products which to pay for, and nobody has enough money possibly to purchase all those mods (assuming they were.) To put this into perspective, if I were to take my skyrim mods that I have currently installed (I calculated this earlier) roughly, I would have to pay over 2000 dollars. That's a little less then half my current steam account worth. No way in hell is anybody who cares enough to even know what mods are is going to spend that amount of money on basic improvements, which are only noticeable when working in harmony. The system you are instigating here is a system where no growth is created and rather, for no effort, the companies that created the framework are getting the majority of cash. Another assumption you make is that modders "deserve" money and so do their mods. How do you know the creator is putting 100% effort into this? How do you know that the customer will know the difference between a "bad" and a "good" mod? There is no way of telling. Just like a videogame, however, mods are different from a videogame. With videogames, we have something to work off of - all modders have to their name is, for the most part, usually nothing. BECAUSE they create mods based off the passion of the game, not the drive of money. That's why many mod creators stick with the game or game series, otherwise, if they wanted cash, they would just make their own game. 25% is nothing, you could never make a living off that, earlier in the thread you acknowledged this, which is fine, but what that directly means is quality mods are not possible, it will remain a hobby, only now it just garners extra cash and pisses off anybody with a low-income budget. Kudos to believing that all of this is for the good of modders and the community to drive them to create more quality mods, because it's not. If you want that, you do unreals system, which rewards based on quality mods not the price of it. I don't know what is with you dude but supporting valve's system is pure insanity, and p.s You still didn't answer the question.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;47621043][t]http://i.imgur.com/H2Qoudd.png[/t][/QUOTE] That's really great insight and one of the few times anyone has expressed meaningful business knowledge to me or anyone else that I've seen. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] How is that dumb? I've never heard of those concepts before.

nixnax has been dumb spamming both threads with nothing to say. Ignore him, if he can't say anything without a dumb rating, he has nothing to say

I may be a little late on this, but if there is a limit on refunding, doesn't that mean its really risky to buy 2 or more mods? Because if they conflict with each other, or they are just complete trash, you're truly never going to get everything back, since the limit on refunding is longer then the refunding period.

[QUOTE=Danny1828;47621229]I may be a little late on this, but if there is a limit on refunding, doesn't that mean its really risky to buy 2 or more mods? Because if they conflict with each other, or they are just complete trash, you're truly never going to get everything back, since the limit on refunding is longer then the refunding period.[/QUOTE] Yeah, however [B]supposedly [/B]the limit is the result of an anti stolen credit card thing malfunctioning to prevent you from buying mods and refunding them to get steam cash. If you bought it with steam cash in the first place, there was supposed to be no restriction.

Valve and Bethesda were just trying to suck up money without having to spend to hire people to create content. This is just an extension of their current systems where they take community made assets like hats and skins to profit off of. This isn't a moral dilemma of whether or not modders should be rewarded for their work.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47621200]nixnax has been dumb spamming both threads with nothing to say. Ignore him, if he can't say anything without a dumb rating, he has nothing to say[/QUOTE] i think his post is dumb because the post he linked provides arguments that, instead of addressing the actual topic, just point the reader the concepts that he loosely connects to the topic at hand. that, and he's arguing something that's not even in place anymore. i rate things i find dumb, dumb

[QUOTE=Crossu88;47621245]Valve and Bethesda were just trying to suck up money without having to spend to hire people to create content. This is just an extension of their current systems where they take community made assets like hats and skins to profit off of. This isn't a moral dilemma of whether or not modders should be rewarded for their work.[/QUOTE] However with that system, they are actually putting in support themselves, guaranteeing it will work, and making the content official. This did none of those.

[QUOTE=deadoon;47621240]Yeah, however [B]supposedly [/B]the limit is the result of an anti stolen credit card thing malfunctioning to prevent you from buying mods and refunding them to get steam cash. If you bought it with steam cash in the first place, there was supposed to be no restriction.[/QUOTE] So basically the consumer is the victim here.

[QUOTE=NixNax123;47621254]i think his post his dumb because the post he linked provides arguments that, instead of addressing the actual topic, just point the reader the concepts that can be loosely connected to the topic at hand. that, and he's arguing something that's not even in place anymore. i rate things i find dumb, dumb[/QUOTE] There's really no need to be calling people out for giving out dumb's unless it's hypocritical or persistent.

they're entirely related in fact no matter how you project the cost of maintaining the workshop compared to how much revenue it brings in will always end up stupidly out of proportion and is directly comparable to rent-seeking

What baffles me the most is how absolutely nothing has been thought about on Valves side, the guys that used to give the most insightful interviews and elaborate TF2 blogposts about how their balancing and all that jazz works.

valve has separate divisions and departments the steam engineers work separately from the source engine development engineers from what i've heard

[QUOTE=Killuah;47621280]What baffles me the most is how absolutely nothing has been thought about on Valves side, the guys that used to give the most insightful interviews and elaborate TF2 blogposts about how their balancing and all that jazz works.[/QUOTE] Majority of the problem was when it was implemented and announced I think, a thursday, near the end of the week. Most people don't work on weekends, I don't know about valve specifically though. Leaving only a single day after release to respond.

[QUOTE=Crossu88;47621245]Valve and Bethesda were just trying to suck up money without having to spend to hire people to create content. This is just an extension of their current systems where they take community made assets like hats and skins to profit off of. This isn't a moral dilemma of whether or not modders should be rewarded for their work.[/QUOTE] i feel bethesda is more at fault. Valve never took a large cut from mods

[QUOTE=NixNax123;47621254]i think his post is dumb because the post he linked provides arguments that, instead of addressing the actual topic, just point the reader the concepts that he loosely connects to the topic at hand. that, and he's arguing something that's not even in place anymore. i rate things i find dumb, dumb[/QUOTE] So you rate well thought out, reasoned and rationed arguments dumb because you don't want to confront your own pre conceptions of an issue? Okay.

[QUOTE=NixNax123;47621254]i think his post is dumb because the post he linked provides arguments that, instead of addressing the actual topic, just point the reader the concepts that he loosely connects to the topic at hand. that, and he's arguing something that's not even in place anymore. i rate things i find dumb, dumb[/QUOTE] at least bring an argument to the table

Well nixnax, it's good you're so confident that you don't even feel the need to explain yourself, but elsewhere in life you'll find your communication skills fail you if this is any indication of how you think or interact intellectuals.

My question, and this may have already been discussed, is who asked for this in the first place? Was there a discussion or petition going on in the modding community that was clamoring for paid mods? If so, it makes a bit more sense why it was even attempted. If not, then there is absolutely no excuse and this whole scheme was nothing but a money grab by Valve and Bethesda.

Really glad this feature finally got removed. The implementation was doomed with Valve's notorious practice of stonewalling everyone on everything until something nearly becomes a riot situation. Here's a list of my reasons why Valve's still a good company that you should be buying from: [B]{LINK REMOVED}[/B] e: nobody gets my references because they're [i]dumb plebs[/i]

[QUOTE=Explosions;47623184]My question, and this may have already been discussed, is who asked for this in the first place? Was there a discussion or petition going on in the modding community that was clamoring for paid mods? If so, it makes a bit more sense why it was even attempted. If not, then there is absolutely no excuse and this whole scheme was nothing but a money grab by Valve and Bethesda.[/QUOTE] Valve thought people enjoyed paying for content made by community members. It's something that works so well in TF2/CSGO/Dota. They must have thought players wouldn't mind paying for content in games like Skyrim, not realizing what it would do to a modding community, or the fact that players tend to dislike paying for weapons/armor in a single player game. The 25% split doesn't help things much in terms of payout, but that's what content creators for TF2/CSGO/Dota get and they technically make less kinds of content than Skyrim modders. I liked the paid workshop idea, it's just a shame how Valve tried to implement it didn't really work out the way they thought. It doesn't help they hired a select few people and kept them under NDA contract about this. If Valve had mentioned this sort of thing ahead of time they would have been able to receive some feedback, but we know they don't communicate, so they'll probably re-release this paid workshop once they've decided to work out how things should be sold and whatnot.

valve considers/considered ugc as one big whole, so modding and hats are the same thing. obviously they're going to change that motion.

So I got hired by a website after making the Quality Check albums and the article just got published. [url]http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/1926-steam-paid-mods-postmortem-analysis[/url] Not sure whether it counts as an opinion piece so I'm not going to make a new thread for it.