Victory for paid mod boycotters: Valve removes payment feature from TES: Skyrim area of the Steam Wo - Polidicks

Only problem I saw with this is quality regulation. Some guy makes 100 swords for $0.50 each and some guy works for half a year on a great expansion and quest line and charges a few bucks. The market becomes flooded with quick cash items and any passion for modding is just sustained by the people who are really dedicated.

[QUOTE=The Janitor;47616025]Only problem I saw with this is quality regulation. Some guy makes 100 swords for $0.50 each and some guy works for half a year on a great expansion and quest line and charges a few bucks. The market becomes flooded with quick cash items and any passion for modding is just sustained by the people who are really dedicated.[/QUOTE] What are ratings for though?

[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;47615957]I feel like you're saying this based the stuff you've managed, which really isn't comparable.[/QUOTE] Donations on scrap.tf have received around $10,000 over three years. For a service with 1,000,000+ pageviews a day [b]and legitimate benefits for donating.[/b] There are no such incentives for donating to mods.

[QUOTE=The Janitor;47616025]Only problem I saw with this is quality regulation. Some guy makes 100 swords for $0.50 each and some guy works for half a year on a great expansion and quest line and charges a few bucks. The market becomes flooded with quick cash items and any passion for modding is just sustained by the people who are really dedicated.[/QUOTE] How is this any different than the Steam Store? The better mods get more exposure, it's as simple as that.

[QUOTE=geel9;47616032]For a service with 1,000,000+ pageviews a day [b]and legitimate benefits for donating.[/b][/QUOTE] Then it's not really a donation, is it?

Say a modder creates a mod for Skyrim that has a dependency on another mod, but they manage to sort it out between the two of them as to how the money will be dealt with. Turns out, they'll split it. So, lets say this mod is a feature changing mod, not a skin or something but it does something to alter the gameplay. It's going to sell for 10$, it's dependency is on a sub set of animations. But okay, we're dealing with it, the pay is split, the 25% mod maker split is 20% for the main mod, 5% for the other mod. But that money is being dealt with on the honor system post cash out at the 100$ minimum point, that's 20$ to the animator, and 400$ in sales on a 10$ mod. That's not a huge deal but I'm curious as to how many people would buy a 10$ feature changing mod. DLC of equivalent cost for a game like Skyrim adds much more than that mod ads. Now, I have to wonder, how can a modder justify that price? How can a customer justify that price? How would developers like Bethesda handle that on their end? How would they see customers who do buy that stuff? We saw Horse Armor years ago. Do you think it'll get better? I'm genuinely curious as to how this is thought of in the minds of people who supported it in the first place. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;47616032]Donations on scrap.tf have received around $10,000 over three years. For a service with 1,000,000+ pageviews a day [b]and legitimate benefits for donating.[/b] There are no such incentives for donating to mods.[/QUOTE] And there's no incentive for me to buy a mod that doesn't have any features equivalent to DLC, yet is priced similarly.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47616057]Say a modder creates a mod for Skyrim that has a dependency on another mod, but they manage to sort it out between the two of them as to how the money will be dealt with. Turns out, they'll split it. So, lets say this mod is a feature changing mod, not a skin or something but it does something to alter the gameplay. It's going to sell for 10$, it's dependency is on a sub set of animations. But okay, we're dealing with it, the pay is split, the 25% mod maker split is 20% for the main mod, 5% for the other mod. But that money is being dealt with on the honor system post cash out at the 100$ minimum point, that's 20$ to the animator, and 400$ in sales on a 10$ mod. That's not a huge deal but I'm curious as to how many people would buy a 10$ feature changing mod. DLC of equivalent cost for a game like Skyrim adds much more than that mod ads. Now, I have to wonder, how can a modder justify that price? How can a customer justify that price? How would developers like Bethesda handle that on their end? How would they see customers who do buy that stuff? We saw Horse Armor years ago. Do you think it'll get better? I'm genuinely curious as to how this is thought of in the minds of people who supported it in the first place. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] And there's no incentive for me to buy a mod that doesn't have any features equivalent to DLC, yet is priced similarly.[/QUOTE] Then don't buy it. You are not entitled to a product you don't want to pay for.

[QUOTE=geel9;47616064]Then don't buy it. You are not entitled to a product you don't want to pay for.[/QUOTE] and they are not going to be managing to sell it to almost anyone. And if they do, they send the message to people like bethesda that they can nickle and dime us for significant money on our end, for no effort on their end, just like the majority of the mods that were bought in the brief period this was in place. Good job arguing with about 1/10th of an argument. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] Just because you CAN sell something doesn't mean you are entitled to sales.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47616057] And there's no incentive for me to buy a mod that doesn't have any features equivalent to DLC, yet is priced similarly.[/QUOTE] Nobody's forcing you to buy the bad/small mods. There's countless huge mods that actually offer MORE than the official DLC for Skyrim.

[QUOTE=Grandzeit;47616094]Nobody's forcing you to buy the bad/small mods. There's countless huge mods that actually offer MORE than the official DLC for Skyrim.[/QUOTE] Yes, and what are those going to sell for? Not that they can now, I'd happily donate, but I don't feel like I want to buy that for the near full game like price it's likely going to have to carry to be split amongst large mod teams. Do the math. Seriously. The bad/small mods are going to be the majority of the mods sold and made and that's the bulk data that will influence the action of companies like bethesda to further nickle and dime and over charge for lower quality work. Answer me this seriously Should the Unofficial Skyrim Patch be sold? It is a mod, but it fixes many essential game breaking bugs that never got patched. Should I be FORCED to pay for a game to be not broken?

[QUOTE=geel9;47616032]Donations on scrap.tf have received around $10,000 over three years. For a service with 1,000,000+ pageviews a day [b]and legitimate benefits for donating.[/b] There are no such incentives for donating to mods.[/QUOTE] I still don't see how your situation is comparable. What you're running is an item trading helper, whereas modding is a creative pursuit. It has more in common with Twitch, where people donate a living wage based on some site cosmetics and the likability/charisma of the streamer alone. If the numbers show nobody donates through the Nexus, they should be re-doing their web design to highlight donations and the author's portfolio before doing something that will seriously transform the modding ecosystem.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47616104]Yes, and what are those going to sell for? Not that they can now, I'd happily donate, but I don't feel like I want to buy that. The bad/small mods are going to be the majority of the mods sold and made and that's the bulk data that will influence the action of companies like bethesda to further nickle and dime and over charge for lower quality work. Answer me this seriously Should the Unofficial Skyrim Patch be sold? It is a mod, but it fixes many essential game breaking bugs that never got patched. Should I be FORCED to pay for a game to be not broken?[/QUOTE] The unofficial Skyrim Patch is already finished, and available for free. There's nothing they can add to it to justify selling it. Come on. The bad mods won't bring in any kind of credit, especially with the 24h refund system. Look at the shitty Greenlight games, that'll eventually end up maybe selling 57 units, if it's lucky. That doesn't justify the time the developer spent at all, and that's without factoring in the Greenlight fees.

[QUOTE=Grandzeit;47616126]The unofficial Skyrim Patch is already finished, and available for free. There's nothing they can add to it to justify selling it. Come on.[/QUOTE] I personally know of a few mods that came down from the Nexus in their existing form to be sold on the Workshop.

[QUOTE=ClauAmericano;47616031]What are ratings for though?[/QUOTE] There is a difference between popular and good.

[QUOTE=Grandzeit;47616126]The unofficial Skyrim Patch is already finished, and available for free. There's nothing they can add to it to justify selling it. Come on. The bad mods won't bring in any kind of credit, especially with the 24h refund system. Look at the shitty Greenlight games, that'll eventually end up maybe selling 57 units, if it's lucky. That doesn't justify the time the developer spent at all, and that's without factoring in the Greenlight fees.[/QUOTE] But the fact is they can sell it and they can pull down the free version and YOU HAVE NO RECOURSE ABOUT THAT IF THAT'S WHAT THEY DECIDE TO DO. You cannot justify your argument if you cannot even be fucking self consistent. If they can't do that, then no one else can put up their mod for sale. You're just being a hypocrite. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] Any mod that was on nexus was freely available to be pulled down entirely, and posted as a paid version only. they had that right, and that was the argument everyone was putting out. Now you're being making a concession that it's a finished mod so they can't do that? Then how the fuck did SKYUI do it?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47616089]and they are not going to be managing to sell it to almost anyone. And if they do, they send the message to people like bethesda that they can nickle and dime us for significant money on our end, for no effort on their end, just like the majority of the mods that were bought in the brief period this was in place. Good job arguing with about 1/10th of an argument. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] Just because you CAN sell something doesn't mean you are entitled to sales.[/QUOTE] You are not entitled to sales. You are entitled to the ability to sell your fucking product that you created, barring legal ramifications. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MegaJohnny;47616120]I still don't see how your situation is comparable. What you're running is an item trading helper, whereas modding is a creative pursuit. It has more in common with Twitch, where people donate a living wage based on some site cosmetics and the likability/charisma of the streamer alone. If the numbers show nobody donates through the Nexus, they should be re-doing their web design to highlight donations and the author's portfolio before doing something that will seriously transform the modding ecosystem.[/QUOTE] People donate to streamers to get in-stream fame. Seriously. That is why. That is the benefit.

[QUOTE=geel9;47616176]You are not entitled to sales. You are entitled to the ability to sell your fucking product that you created, barring legal ramifications.[/QUOTE] So you agree with the idea that the nearly required to play Unofficial Skyrim Patch would reasonably been allowed to have been sold for whatever price the mod team deemed neccessary and that this is not only right for the market, but good for the market? Okay. If this turns most mods into small shitty mods(which in 3 days it did) then I fail to see how your argument holds any water.

[QUOTE=geel9;47615882]Donations that don't provide incentives do not generate [b]jack shit[/b] in terms of revenue. This is not going to change.[/QUOTE] And yet people get hundreds if not thousands through paypal links and Patreon, which is entirely optional, because someone released something out of passion and hard work for free. Donations work.

[QUOTE=geel9;47616176]People donate to streamers to get in-stream fame. Seriously. That is why. That is the benefit.[/QUOTE] "No one donates to streamers because they like them." You're blinded by money.

spuf is always good for a laugh [t]http://i.imgur.com/aKMbZ7C.png[/t]

Hope Chesko comes back now that it's all over. Poor guy was hit really hard by the whole deal. Shezrie's the only one of the whole bunch of legitimately deserves all the shit she got. Bleakden was godawful and the fact she seriously asked for three dollars for a two-cell location that adds 20 silent NPCs fucking boggles me. And hey, it's pretty much collector now. Glad I still have the file saved somewhere.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;47616276]Hope Chesko comes back now that it's all over. Poor guy was hit really hard by the whole deal. Shezrie's the only one of the whole bunch of legitimately deserves all the shit he got. Bleakden was godawful and the fact he seriously asked for three dollars for a two-cell location that adds 20 silent NPCs fucking boggles me. And hey, it's pretty much collector now. Glad I still have the file saved somewhere.[/QUOTE] I don't think I'll hold many regrets for the authors of SkyUI or MMG, for that matter. But, now that I think about it, what happened over the course of this weekend really sparked my interest into TES again. Feeling inclined to boot it up and give it a spin, with mods, of course.

[QUOTE=toaster468;47613543]Yeah mod developers don't deserve money. We better keep them and valve in line...[/QUOTE] They do deserve money. They don't deserve a chump change cut when they're doing 100% of the aftermarket work. Valve should get 10% AT MOST Beth 30% because they provide the framework and "tools" (such as they are, frankly) and the person doing the work should get the rest, period. There should also be a pwyw button that starts with 0, unless this is some kind of TC like Skywind or Luuft. Also there should be a vetted curator team whom are PAID, not in steambux, not in kudos or fucking mannconomy hats but actual physical cash to curate the mods for plagiarism, quality and usability, and any mods that doesn't have a FULL chain of permission doesn't make the cut, no matter how shiny and sexy it is. It wasn't a bad idea, it was implemented with the care and grace of a molting duck on fire, and the pretty much naked greed of the two sponsors was hilariously evident, as is how completely out of fucking touch both parent parties are. Did anyone approach the community? Did anyone grade or vet any of these mostly hilarious badly made mods? They literally ignored their own foundings and current mod curation in favor of "gib moneys pls" without the remotest sense of grace, community spirit or you know, giving the remotest of fucks about whom it was that makes Skyrim a perennial top 5 game on steam's populated game chart. Treat your customers and authors like human fucking beings and not spreadsheet numbers, and maybe they'll be much more receptive to the idea. [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Grandzeit;47616126]The unofficial Skyrim Patch is already finished, and available for free. There's nothing they can add to it to justify selling it. Come on. The bad mods won't bring in any kind of credit, especially with the 24h refund system. Look at the shitty Greenlight games, that'll eventually end up maybe selling 57 units, if it's lucky. That doesn't justify the time the developer spent at all, and that's without factoring in the Greenlight fees.[/QUOTE] It is not finished, and secondly the author has pretty much worn out his welcome in every community he's been a part of due to his "I am the modder you all deserve to praise and pay" attitude.

In my opinion there should be optimal donation system for people who don't want lock their mods behind a paywall, even if it doesn't generate a lot of money to the creator.

If there was some sort of review on selling mods (i.e. a standard on pricing vs. amount of content, quality control), I'd have no problem with it.

[QUOTE=catbarf;47615379]again It is downright delusional to think modders would [i]ever[/i] get most of the revenue from any monetization scheme.[/QUOTE] publishers provide capital, printing, and editors. Steam provides the download service, hosting, and advertising. Bethesda provides the legal sanctions but in reality provides nothing to the mod itself. IN your example you described fanfiction getting 15%, the difference being that fanfiction is a standlone object. The mod is a script or textures applied to a game someone else already has downloaded on their computer. The fanfiction contains the story elements and characters and IP of the original and is standalone. A mod you buy doesnt need to(but sometimes will) contain any copyrighted content at all. But sure im sure we would all just love a repeat of the record label situation except in fucking mods wouldnt we guys?!? 1% to the modders 1% to the modders! [editline]28th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=27X;47616324]AT MOST Beth 30% because they provide the framework and "tools" (such as they are, frankly)[/QUOTE] the tools are included in the software you purchase for a one time fee. There's no need to give them any more for it. You probably need to give them a cut just for the potential legal threat to the modders otherwise, no more than 10% is really acceptable And to anyone who says "but what motivation would bethesda have to keep their games moddable if they dont get a bigger cut!" They already keep their games moddable and they dont get a cut, you dunce. Mod support gives you more sales already.

Is it just me, or does it sound like the paid mods thing isn't gone forever. All they said was that they screwed up and that they shouldn't have started with Skyrim.

Well, giving mod creators the opportunity to earn a living with their mods is one thing, but taking 75% off the creator is another. I'd rather have an explanation about why they thought it's fine to take 75% as a "fee" instead of making it similar to the steam market where it's 10% or something. It's good that they removed it but a donation option would still be nice. Even with a small fee of around 5-10% going to Valve just to finance the service and the support for it.

[QUOTE=CommanderPT;47616534]Is it just me, or does it sound like the paid mods thing isn't gone forever. All they said was that they screwed up and that they shouldn't have started with Skyrim.[/QUOTE] Of course they're not going to drop the idea. It's not inherently bad - it's just their execution was far too rushed and needed to curated. I think the community is very capable of coming out with mods worth paying for, and that's what I imagine would be the perfect usage of a sale system. I'm thinking in terms of something like what Source mods are for Half-Life 2.

Personally I think the general idea of paid mods was a good idea, albeit horribly executed by Valve. [U]Some things I think could have made the idea gone smoother:[/U] - Creators should get a bigger split of the money. 60/20/20 to Modder/Valve/Game Owner would be much more fair - Allow teams to share the split of the money. You could even make it so the modder split increases up to a certain percent(+20%?) depending on the size of the team. - Games with existing large modding communities should be excluded from having paid mods. It causes chaos within the community and doesn't end well as we've seen. - Games with paid mods need to have proper modding support. A game update should not threaten to break mods. - Mods need to be able to stand on their own. If they have external dependencies or break in conjunction with certain mods(proper modding support should prevent this being an issue) they shouldn't be sold. - Paid mods need to be curated. By humans. Nobody is going to buy anything if all they see are pages of low poly models and horse dongs being sold for $99. - Valve needs to work with the modders to determine a reasonable price. They could have their curators do this. A sword should not cost more than a massive overhaul mod. - Proper refunds(back to the original payment method). - Longer refund periods. Edge case bugs may take hour or days of playing before being discovered. Making refunds painless makes it more likely people will try buying a mod again in the future. The benefit of a returning customer outweighs the couple assholes who abuse the system. - Workshop needs to provide more robust tools/incentives for modders. For example providing version control software like git in workshop would help facilitate collaboration between team members and allow mods to be managed effectively. It also helps justify Valve's cut. - A proper bug report system. The threaded discussions workshop currently has isn't good enough. Ideally paid mods should be bug free, but realistically edge cases won't be caught until after release. Modders could link a bug report to a commit and be able to keep track of when and where bugs were fixed. - Abandoned mods should be pulled from the store. A good way to sort through the noise which mods are abandoned and broken would be to start with mods with lots of bug reports that go unanswered and/or unfixed. - Add a donate feature. Some modders may dislike the idea of forcing people to pay but still allow players to tip them if they seriously want to. Valve could take a small cut to deal with transaction fees(and whats required for tax purposes) [U]The biggest thing that could have made the idea gone smoother:[/U] -[B] COMMUNICATION[/B]. None of this would have happened if valve had gone public with the idea before they released it. People would still flip their shit, but Valve would at least have the ability to fix issues before it goes live. They should keep that line of communication open throughout the entire process. Even if they implemented everything the community asked for, they should still keep the community informed of their intentions. I'm 100% sure there will be issues and things people don't like and things missed. If they communicate and listen to our responses, they can fix those too. Valve says it's data-driven. What better way to collect data than asking the data makers themselves?