[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571220]People act as if Cartels are the only source of production for drugs; weed especially. That's simply not the case; in fact, the Cartels are much more into Methamphetamine than weed nowadays. Most weed has become localized making it cheaper since it's not run across the boarder and transported extremely far north. The ease of Grow-Ops has lowered the profits of Cartel weed.[/QUOTE]
Thus why you legalise and control all drugs, that's the way it should have been from the start, any other way and there is a supply vacuum that just gets filled by some shady character.
Besides one of the things you said that should be done to fight back against the cartels is the specialist military forces. I'm pretty sure there's a few in nearly every South American country, and it's not working. In Colombia the forces go deep into the jungles to find and destroy labs and literally all the labs need are some chemicals, coca leaves and like 2 or 3 people to work the process and they can make hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of the extract and they're pretty much sorted.
It's impossible to stop, all you can do is try and deliver a massive shock to their finances by breaking all their drug income in one swoop.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;35571317]Thus why you legalise and control all drugs, that's the way it should have been from the start, any other way and there is a supply vacuum that just gets filled by some shady character.
Besides one of the things you said that should be done to fight back against the cartels is the specialist military forces. I'm pretty sure there's a few in nearly every South American country, and it's not working. In Colombia the forces go deep into the jungles to find and destroy labs and literally all the labs need are some chemicals, coca leaves and like 2 or 3 people to work the process and they can make hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of the extract and they're pretty much sorted.
It's impossible to stop, all you can do is try and deliver a massive shock to their finances by breaking all their drug income in one swoop.[/QUOTE]
Legalization would reduce the cartel's influence, but it won't do it significantly, and it definitely won't make them go away.
I mean, cigarettes are completely legal, but the market for fake/smuggled cigarettes is huge- You don't need to keep any industry standard, you don't have to pay taxes to anyone etc. And it's the same with prostitution or any other legalized goods and, uhm, services.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;35571268]According to Wikipedia, because I'm about to leave and have no time looking for potentially better sources, half of their income is from cannabis alone: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Drug_sources_and_use[/url][/QUOTE]
Wikipedia is fine to use, it's just an aggregation of information, the stuff is generally well sourced and people rarely just fuck around with information such as this. Fuck anyone who claims it isn't a good source.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35570990]Of course it wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, that argument has been run so far into the ground that those who do support legalization rarely use it. (Unless you're an idiot) The Cartels already have such a strong influence that knocking out one source of income will only strengthen their other endeavors. It may sound radical and I know a lot of you would disagree; but I feel the only way to stop the cartels (At least the Mexico based ones) is by use of special military forces. Mexico's law enforcement isn't going to do the job, and even if they tried it wouldn't even make a dent.[/QUOTE]
I don't particularly understand the reason and evidence behind these claims. I'll lay out the argument so you can point out where it doesn't hold up.
[B]The price of drugs is currently overinflated due to their illegality.[/B] If needed I can go into a number of factors involved, but this premise should be pretty obvious.
[B]The inflated prices creates an incentive to commit the illegal act as the gains are reasoned to be worth the risk.[/B] If hardly any profit could be made off of selling drugs, not many people would take up the business. But if the potential profit is very large, this gives a lot of people who are willing to do illegal actions an incentive to do illegal actions.
[B]A legal drug market would result in far reduced prices.[/B] This is not only due to factors such as having to avoid/bribe public officials, not having to cover the risk of getting caught, but also due to the enhancements that real businesses could bring to bear on the production. The increased supply would lower prices drastically.
Due to the price of drugs being deflated, there is no incentive for crime to be committed to make drug money. To go further, the drug cartels would have absolutely no way to compete with legitimate businesses.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35570990]Of course it wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, that argument has been run so far into the ground that those who do support legalization rarely use it. (Unless you're an idiot) The Cartels already have such a strong influence that knocking out one source of income will only strengthen their other endeavors. It may sound radical and I know a lot of you would disagree; but I feel the only way to stop the cartels (At least the Mexico based ones) is by use of special military forces. Mexico's law enforcement isn't going to do the job, and even if they tried it wouldn't even make a dent.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't solve what problems? Is it a panacea? No, of course not, but it's certainly seems like a giant step in the right direction.
[QUOTE=Glorbo;35571318]Legalization would reduce the cartel's influence, but it won't do it significantly, and it definitely won't make them go away.
I mean, cigarettes are completely legal, but the market for fake/smuggled cigarettes is huge- You don't need to keep any industry standard, you don't have to pay taxes to anyone etc. And it's the same with prostitution or any other legalized goods and, uhm, services.[/QUOTE]
To be honest I don't get why prostitution is illegal either for anything other than moral reasons. I'm not trying to be that guy who's all like "OH YEAH MAN, LEGALISATION WOULD JUST KILL THE CARTELS STONE DEAD" I know that won't work, but if it was done well and as part of a massive offensive with massive sweeping attacks on the cartels militarily and through seizing assets then you could deliver a hammer blow to them.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;35571317]Thus why you legalise and control all drugs, that's the way it should have been from the start, any other way and there is a supply vacuum that just gets filled by some shady character.
Besides one of the things you said that should be done to fight back against the cartels is the specialist military forces. I'm pretty sure there's a few in nearly every South American country, and it's not working. In Colombia the forces go deep into the jungles to find and destroy labs and literally all the labs need are some chemicals, coca leaves and like 2 or 3 people to work the process and they can make hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of the extract and they're pretty much sorted.
It's impossible to stop, all you can do is try and deliver a massive shock to their finances by breaking all their drug income in one swoop.[/QUOTE]
My question to you then is how do you control the use of hard drugs? I actually would like to know because I haven't put much thought into it. If you mean simply stock it on shelves like cigarettes then I don't think it would be the best of ideas. The differences between the addiction to Methamphetamine and Cigarettes is so very different. Meth has been known to cause psychosis in those who have become dependent on it. Meth is a drug that is just too dangerous to legalize; it's highly volatile, unpredictable, and extremely dangerous.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;35571338]Wikipedia is fine to use, it's just an aggregation of information, the stuff is generally well sourced and people rarely just fuck around with information such as this. Fuck anyone who claims it isn't a good source.[/QUOTE]
Even then you can just scroll down and use the sources that Wikipedia uses.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;35571317]Thus why you legalise and control all drugs, that's the way it should have been from the start, any other way and there is a supply vacuum that just gets filled by some shady character.
Besides one of the things you said that should be done to fight back against the cartels is the specialist military forces. I'm pretty sure there's a few in nearly every South American country, and it's not working. In Colombia the forces go deep into the jungles to find and destroy labs and literally all the labs need are some chemicals, coca leaves and like 2 or 3 people to work the process and they can make hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of the extract and they're pretty much sorted.
It's impossible to stop, all you can do is try and deliver a massive shock to their finances by breaking all their drug income in one swoop.[/QUOTE]
A massive swoop to their finances only works when they are starting up. The largest cartels are currently sitting on assloads of cash and military grade hardware. If you legalise it, you've introduced competition, and the cartel frankly doesn't care if it's legal competition or a rival cartel - they'll declare war on the competition (legal businesses) and will be more than able to kill hundreds in bombings and attacks on legal retailers.
[QUOTE=Furioso;35571083]yup. the reason why we haven't heard anything about big chicago mobsters since the 30s is simply because prohibition ended.
we should at least legalize cannabis and hemp products, and have the government regulate it... who's going to buy from cartels when they can buy it legally from the government? especially if it's offered at prices that undercut the cartels'. obviously, marijuana isn't their only source of income, but it is one of their biggest ones, and it would severely weaken the cartels' power
the new, flourishing cannabis and hemp industries would be an enormous contribution to the economy, along with the billions in tax revenue the government would be raking in
solve the defecit with weed[/QUOTE]
And even then most of the weed around my area at least doesn't even come from the cartels, it's all grown locally by (usually) normal people.
[QUOTE=Terminutter;35571422]A massive swoop to their finances only works when they are starting up. The largest cartels are currently sitting on assloads of cash and military grade hardware. If you legalise it, you've introduced competition, and the cartel frankly doesn't care if it's legal competition or a rival cartel - they'll declare war on the competition (legal businesses) and will be more than able to kill hundreds in bombings and attacks on legal retailers.[/QUOTE]
Or just extort the businesses out of their profits.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571399]My question to you then is how do you control the use of hard drugs? I actually would like to know because I haven't put much thought into it. If you mean simply stock it on shelves like cigarettes then I don't think it would be the best of ideas. The differences between the addiction to Methamphetamine and Cigarettes is so very different. Meth has been known to cause psychosis in those who have become dependent on it. Meth is a drug that is just too dangerous to legalize; it's highly volatile, unpredictable, and extremely dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Same way you deal with currently controlled substances in hospitals?
Keep it kept under lock and key in an unmarked building (nothing that you could say HEY MAN THAT BUILDING HAS A LIFETIME SUPPLY OF E'S, ACID AND COKE BRO!) that the public wouldn;t be informed off, lot's of security and then it would provide weekly/bi-weekly deliveries to surrounding dispensaries (these would obviously need to be known) so I would propose armed guards 24 hrs a day with some mongo good security like safes with glass relockers cause let's face it, are you gonna risk like 15 years in prison for some cheap as shit drugs (cheap cause they're now legal)
I dunno, I'm currently ill as fuck and it's effecting my ability to fully plan out shit, but this is basically how I envision stuff with supply, storage and dispensing all kept separate and very secret.
[QUOTE=Amez;35571433]And even then most of the weed around my area at least doesn't even come from the cartels, it's all grown locally by (usually) normal people.[/QUOTE]
so what? that doesn't mean anything. like someone posted earlier, it's been estimated that around half of the cartels' profits come from selling their weed. and as Pepin pointed out in [url=http://facepunch.com/threads/1177409?p=35571367&viewfull=1#post35571367]this very well worded post[/url], legalization would cripple this income
[QUOTE=Terminutter;35571422]A massive swoop to their finances only works when they are starting up. The largest cartels are currently sitting on assloads of cash and military grade hardware. If you legalise it, you've introduced competition, and the cartel frankly doesn't care if it's legal competition or a rival cartel - they'll declare war on the competition (legal businesses) and will be more than able to kill hundreds in bombings and attacks on legal retailers.[/QUOTE]
That's why I said along side seizures of all known legal assets that are even possibly linked to the cartels, and I don't mean like all a month down the line or anything, I mean on the same day, that way they'll be a bit more worried about all their assets going down the pan than American drug legalisation.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;35571448]Or just extort the businesses out of their profits.[/QUOTE]
This is very true; the Cartels are unpredictable in everything they do and looking at how they react to change in the past they would adapt quickly. I was recently watching a special on one of the world's largest gangs called "MS-13" and although they aren't a Cartel, they are pretty much in the same business. MS-13 already extorts street vendors and shops in East LA monthly for a "protection" service that are within their Klick's turf. It makes sense that the Cartels would probably do very similar things with dispensaries, factories, shops, etc.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571399]My question to you then is how do you control the use of hard drugs? I actually would like to know because I haven't put much thought into it. If you mean simply stock it on shelves like cigarettes then I don't think it would be the best of ideas. The differences between the addiction to Methamphetamine and Cigarettes is so very different. Meth has been known to cause psychosis in those who have become dependent on it. Meth is a drug that is just too dangerous to legalize; it's highly volatile, unpredictable, and extremely dangerous.[/QUOTE]
You don't exactly "control" the use of hard drugs; and meth is not too dangerous to legalize.
I think the best way to go about "controlling" drugs is to make people get a license to use certain drugs; where they basically have to sit through a course or two learning about said drug (all its dangers, risks, and whatnot). If the person still wants to use the drug after that then so be it, it's their choice.
At the same time there should be a system of rehabilitation setup; if a user commits a crime that is caused by said drug, then give them rehabilitation while they serve whatever time is decided. If they end up on the streets somehow because of an addiction to a drug, then social workers should come, pick them up, and get them treated.
My point is that punishing people isn't the solution; it doesn't make a person want to use a drug any less.
As an extra step, if the government dispenses the "hard drugs," then they can limit how much each person receives on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis.
[QUOTE=Terminutter;35571422]A massive swoop to their finances only works when they are starting up. The largest cartels are currently sitting on assloads of cash and military grade hardware. If you legalise it, you've introduced competition, and the cartel frankly doesn't care if it's legal competition or a rival cartel - they'll declare war on the competition (legal businesses) and will be more than able to kill hundreds in bombings and attacks on legal retailers.[/QUOTE]
That claim seems quite unrealistic, or at least quite extraordinary. Shouldn't more evidence be provided to prove it? I mean the cost of waging any sort of war in the US or other modern country just doesn't seem viable practically or economically.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;35571448]Or just extort the businesses out of their profits.[/QUOTE]
hire private security to protect those businesses, or even better, lobby the government to help with security using newly made profits from drug tax revenue. with the cartels' main source of income knocked out, it will be much more difficult to organize attacks or use money as a tool for bribery and such
[QUOTE=Master X;35571512]You don't exactly "control" the use of hard drugs; and meth is not too dangerous to legalize.
I think the best way to go about "controlling" drugs is to make people get a license to use certain drugs; where they basically have to sit through a course or two learning about said drug (all its dangers, risks, and whatnot). If the person still wants to use the drug after that then so be it, it's their choice.
At the same time there should be a system of rehabilitation setup rather than simply punishment alone if they commit a crime that is caused by said drug then give them rehabilitation at the same time. If they end up on the streets somehow because of an addiction to a drug, then social workers should come, pick them up, and get them treated.
My point is that punishing people isn't the solution; it doesn't make a person want to use a drug any less.[/QUOTE]
I like the idea of rehabilitation but do you really think the government is going to pour money into rehab clinics and services that are designed to round up street drug users? They don't even do that now; hell, prisons aren't even really government funded anymore.
[QUOTE=Master X;35571512]You don't exactly "control" the use of hard drugs; and meth is not too dangerous to legalize.
I think the best way to go about "controlling" drugs is to make people get a license to use certain drugs; where they basically have to sit through a course or two learning about said drug (all its dangers, risks, and whatnot). If the person still wants to use the drug after that then so be it, it's their choice.
At the same time there should be a system of rehabilitation setup rather than simply punishment alone if they commit a crime that is caused by said drug then give them rehabilitation at the same time. If they end up on the streets somehow because of an addiction to a drug, then social workers should come, pick them up, and get them treated.
My point is that punishing people isn't the solution; it doesn't make a person want to use a drug any less.[/QUOTE]
anyone who doubts this should take a look at what Portugal has done (and succeeded at) with decriminalization.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;35571492]That's why I said along side seizures of all known legal assets that are even possibly linked to the cartels, and I don't mean like all a month down the line or anything, I mean on the same day, that way they'll be a bit more worried about all their assets going down the pan than American drug legalisation.[/QUOTE]
They don't keep all of their cash in legal bank accounts, y'know? And all known legal assets of cartels [b]have[/b] been siezed, and are as soon as they are known.
In addition to that, that's assuming that you somehow find every single one of their strongholds and manage to strike them simultaniously, a feat which would lead to Rommel and Monty both giving you a good pat on the back due to the sheer scale of such an operation.
[QUOTE=Pepin;35571528]That claim seems quite unrealistic, or at least quite extraordinary. Shouldn't more evidence be provided to prove it? I mean the cost of waging any sort of war in the US or other modern country just doesn't seem viable practically or economically.[/QUOTE]
There are known military defectors, most of the Los Zetas are defectors, so we know that they have the skills. As for bomb making, any idiot could make a bomb with a guide, for the price of a few quid and these people are not idiots, far from it. To put the scale of the cartels in your head, they are essentially armies. You seem to be taking me as meaning a conventional war, and a war in the legal sense, I don't. Guerilla warfare is cheap, and effective. I should really have said "an unrelenting chain of attacks", but that's a bit weighty.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;35571290]Even if it did get legalised in the USA, they can still sell it in other countries.[/QUOTE]
nor that it ever will
Goddamn the cartel is scary.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571541]I like the idea of rehabilitation but do you really think the government is going to pour money into rehab clinics and services that are designed to round up street drug users? They don't even do that now; hell, prisons aren't even really government funded anymore.[/QUOTE]
If you guestimate how much money would be spent doing this rather than simply putting people away then you'll see just how much money you would save. I'm not going to bother looking up sources though.
[QUOTE=Bredirish123;35571308]Because even if a drug as small as marijuana was legalized it wouldn't dent the Cartels. (Mind you I support the legalization of Marijuana) The problem is that the US Government will never ever legalize hard drugs such as Meth, Cocaine, Heroine, etc simply because of their damaging properties. Cartel money is made in Meth and hard drugs; marijuana isn't their only source of drug income. As I said in another post, Cartel weed isn't as prominent now because of localized Grow-Ops. If Cartel weed was one of the few sources weed prices would be through the rood; but I can get a good nug or two for about $20.00 in Atlanta, Georgia.[/QUOTE]
This is strange. It's like you're part buying into the DARE bullshit, and part buying into the drug legalization movement. You're under the impression, it seems, that marijuana is the only (or at least one of the only) safe (relatively) criminalized drug. This is simply not the case. Coke is [i]not[/i] that bad. I certainly would not consider it a "hard drug." But that is beside the point really, the use of drugs is a personal choice, if for no other reason then it should be decriminalized out of respect of our freedoms.
[QUOTE=Terminutter;35571565]They don't keep all of their cash in legal bank accounts, y'know? And all known legal assets of cartels [b]have[/b] been siezed, and are as soon as they are known.
In addition to that, that's assuming that you somehow find every single one of their strongholds and manage to strike them simultaniously, a feat which would lead to Rommel and Monty both giving you a good pat on the back due to the sheer scale of such an operation.
There are known military defectors, most of the Los Zetas are defectors, so we know that they have the skills. As for bomb making, any idiot could make a bomb with a guide, for the price of a few quid and these people are not idiots, far from it. To put the scale of the cartels in your head, they are essentially armies. You seem to be taking me as meaning a conventional war, and a war in the legal sense, I don't. Guerilla warfare is cheap, and effective. I should really have said "an unrelenting chain of attacks", but that's a bit weighty.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, I'm generally quite ignorant of the situation beyond the cartels are cunts and are ruining a lot of peoples lives, I actually thought that they were less hidden than they are.
And what you were saying there about bomb making, you don't even need a guide, all you need is some basic chemistry knowledge and some fucking big brass balls.
[editline]14th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Master X;35571667]If you guestimate how much money would be spent doing this rather than simply putting people away then you'll see just how much money you would save. I'm not going to bother looking up sources though.
This is strange. It's like you're part buying into the DARE bullshit, and part buying into the drug legalization movement. You're under the impression, it seems, that marijuana is the only (or at least one of the only) safe (relatively) criminalized drug. This is simply not the case. Coke is [i]not[/i] that bad. I certainly would not consider it a "hard drug." But that is beside the point really, the use of drugs is a personal choice, if for no other reason then it should be decriminalized out of respect of our freedoms.[/QUOTE]
Cocaine is definitely a hard drug, and anyone who enjoys sex should probably avoid it's prolonged use.
Fuck, I cant believe I supported Obama, hes as much of a drug puppet as the rest of em
[editline]14th April 2012[/editline]
Rule of Law my ass, see how that has worked out for them so far?
Who gives a shit about cartels, legalize weed already.
Well,it would significantly cripple their trade.
The main idea i think behind legalization is not to fight drug cartels or gangs, it's more about cutting the obscene amount of spending that goes into fighting drug suppression. In the case of marijuana, as the article does not specify which drugs, it's also about how it's almost completely harmless.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;35571768]Who gives a shit about cartels, legalize weed already.[/QUOTE]
I imagine mexicans, people who live in mexico, people who live near the mexican border and people with a sense of empathy would care about what the cartels are doing.
But yeah legalise weed.
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