USA finally getting High speed Railway, starting with California - Polidicks

I do not think this is the best time to start building a railroad for California they're in a shitload of debt aren't they? Plus the reported costs seem exorbitantly high. . [url]http://goo.gl/4u1lF[/url] 68 Billion is an extremely high cost, is it really that expensive to produce?

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;36718460]Major highways area already tolled, unless you meant for it to be an expensive toll, in which case I think all you'd achieve is making people less likely to travel long distances. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] Toll roads around here and badly designed anyway, if you take a wrong turn or need to get off the highway for a second, then you have to pay again to get back on the highway. I'd rather not have more of that.[/QUOTE]GPS is on the way to becoming standard in all cars and they could develop systems where it can tell you just left the highway thus won't double charge. Also for those who can't stand the gas tax idea, lol we have the lowest gas tax in the world. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Fuel_tax_in_OECD_countries%2C_2010..png[/img] Granted Mexico has a direct subsidy but we subsidies our gas indirectly. We has built our lives off of the lie of cheap oil so its better to adjust to a life where its slightly more expensive now rather ultra expensive later without the transit projects funded my said gas tax. At the very least we should tie the dam thing to inflation.

[QUOTE=mac338;36691106]Come to Norway. See if your measly $3-4/gallon gas can compete with our $11/gallon gas, or our 25% sales tax alongside an already added import fee. Or go to Sweden and enjoy a 60% income tax.[/QUOTE] Add Netherlands to that list, we have taxes for basically anything. We even have taxes for water usage, plus if you have a yearly income of over €150,000.- your income will be cut down by 59%. Silly murrikans.

[QUOTE=KorJax;36722240]Except you don't pay property taxes and such to your county, you pay them to the city you live in. If you live in a suburb but work in the city, you are paying taxes twoard that suburb, not the city. However I think income tax is exempt from this. I.E. you pay local income tax wherever your location of work is. I could be wrong though. And I think income tax is actually not taxed by the city you are in, only by the state/federal governments[/QUOTE] Denver taxes you on your paycheck if you work within the county. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Dysgalt;36722896]I do not think this is the best time to start building a railroad for California they're in a shitload of debt aren't they? Plus the reported costs seem exorbitantly high. . [url]http://goo.gl/4u1lF[/url] 68 Billion is an extremely high cost, is it really that expensive to produce?[/QUOTE] Don't worry. EVERYONE in the US will be paying for California's train.

[QUOTE=Political Gamer;36723607]Also for those who can't stand the gas tax idea, lol we have the lowest gas tax in the world.[/QUOTE] A gas tax would hurt poor people more than anyone. It'd box a lot of people in too, because what if you can't find a job within walking distance, and can't afford to fuel a car? Well now you're fucked and there's nothing you can really do about it. Granted this already happens, but it'll only make it worse.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;36725908]A gas tax would hurt poor people more than anyone. It'd box a lot of people in too, because what if you can't find a job within walking distance, and can't afford to fuel a car? Well now you're fucked and there's nothing you can really do about it. Granted this already happens, but it'll only make it worse.[/QUOTE]And this is the conundrum that putting so much emphasis on cars as the primary mode of transport can create. The only real solution I can think of is a food stamp type system where you would use a special card that would take off part or all of the gas tax depending on now low that person's income is. The hope is that the extra money generated from the policies I suggested is that one day that person (and most of the rest of the general public for the matter) will have no need for their car and can take public transit for less money in less time.

[QUOTE=Political Gamer;36723607]GPS is on the way to becoming standard in all cars and they could develop systems where it can tell you just left the highway thus won't double charge. Also for those who can't stand the gas tax idea, lol we have the lowest gas tax in the world. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Fuel_tax_in_OECD_countries%2C_2010..png[/img] Granted Mexico has a direct subsidy but we subsidies our gas indirectly. We has built our lives off of the lie of cheap oil so its better to adjust to a life where its slightly more expensive now rather ultra expensive later without the transit projects funded my said gas tax. At the very least we should tie the dam thing to inflation.[/QUOTE] I always hate this argument because it's so stupid and doesn't take into account that US's economy literally is driven on the fact that we tax gas so much less than European countries. We still tax gas, just not as much. Why America having the same gas prices as Europe is the stupidest thing ever: 1. Congestion. Europe is much more congested of a region than most given regions in America. High gas tax promote people to use cars when needed, instead of all the time. This reduces congestion, and keeps things flowing better. Congestion simply isn't a major issue for 90% of the urbanized population in America. The places where it is an issue mostly amount to areas that are mega-cities (high populations, think New York, LA, Chicago, etc). 2. Europe has virtually no reliance on Suburban infrastructure, while the majority of the American population lives in a suburban area. Suburbs are designed by nature to be driven on, and they have lower population densities. You simply CANNOT live in a suburb without driving. Making it expensive to drive basically will cause the majority of the American population to have much less spending power than your average European, and completely destroy the lower class who live in suburbs. 3. Prices of everything will skyrocket, because we have a large financial investment into Semi-truck and national shipping infrastructure. High gas prices will make traveling out of state prohibitive on a personal level (it already is somewhat expensive - my trip I'm taking across the country this summer will cost a total of $550 in gas alone, and I'm running with a 40mpg vehicle). Commercial transportation across the country is going to be too expensive to support at Europe-level gas prices. The economy WILL collapse. 4. Due to low population density, almost every square inch of urbanized area in America is extremely pedestrian unfriendly. The only places that have a strong public transport and pedestrian transport support are large cities, because they have the population density to support such things. And they pay for that by making it so parking downtown is very expensive. High gas prices require people to walk/bike/scooter/etc to do what they want to do. This is very easy in Europe because the majority of the cities and population centers were designed to have a large amount of pedestrian traffic. And because the population density in Europe is much higher, they can afford much larger scale public transport, meaning that it's literally possible to get almost anywhere in Europe without a car and without it taking several days. 5. America has a much larger Rural/Small Town population, or farmer population, than that of Europe. Places where the nearest grocery store is a 30 minute drive on the highway away. If the gas prices here were as highly taxed as Europe, these locations would literally become ghost towns and entire state's economies would crumble, because it would be impossible to afford to live there. 6. America has much less of a pollution issue as a whole than Europe, simply due to lower concentrations of people. Sure, in mega cities the pollution is an issue, which is why those places generally DO have higher gas prices, expensive parking, and good pedestrian/public transport support. But Europe as a whole, being much higher density, would suffer much higher pollution (and they did, during the industrial revolution), without the prices they have now. They NEED those prices to prevent the whole of Europe having similar pollution levels as a large city would have after 10 years. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Political Gamer;36726169]And this is the conundrum that putting so much emphasis on cars as the primary mode of transport can create. The only real solution I can think of is a food stamp type system where you would use a special card that would take off part or all of the gas tax depending on now low that person's income is. The hope is that the extra money generated from the policies I suggested is that one day that person (and most of the rest of the general public for the matter) will have no need for their car and can take public transit for less money in less time.[/QUOTE] Honestly a better idea would be to simply have a higher income tax That way you simply pay more into social infrastructure (like healthcare, transport, etc) by having a good job, instead of punishing people from using already existing infrastructure that is GOOD to be used from an economic standpoint. Though even still we wouldn't be able to have the same type of taxes as Europe (i.e. 50% income tax) simply because our government is by design inefficent and made to have little power. This makes it so things like Taxes are hard to properly allocate money for, and spend wisely, in order to keep government power in check. I know, it's a bit of an outdated concept in the globalized world but it is what helped make America a strong enough country to break away from colonialism and act as a safe haven for people in the age of imperialism. So it's kind of ingraned in our culture, to be wary of high taxes or a strong governing body that has power. Sadly the only way to fix this is for America to either just accept that it will no longer have strong global relevance and/or a small revolution. Which probably won't happen easily because we're a nation of idealists. Even if some of the idealists are idiots and they end up mucking up an already inefficent goverment.

[QUOTE=Political Gamer;36690976]Even better news, a French TGV company has already made an offer to help consult on line construction! (and hopefully run trains on the line in the future) [url]http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-rail-advice-20120709,0,4539140.story[/url] Granted CHSR turned them down because they want to get the first leg built first before letting other people in. However, the fact that a major HSR company wants in this early is a very good sign for the future of CHSR![/QUOTE]Foreign companies have been offering to build high speed rails for us for YEARS, and our legislators and lobbyists basically waved them the middle finger, even in cases where they offered to cover the costs to build the entire rail lines themselves. So yeah, can't really complain if this raises taxes for us, we chose to pay for it ourselves. :v:

[QUOTE=certified;36692090]Doesn't America import most of it's crops from Mexico and South America though?[/QUOTE] Are you retarded? The Midwest is nicknamed the "World's Breadbasket".

[QUOTE=KorJax;36726179]I always hate this argument because it's so stupid and doesn't take into account [b]that US's economy literally is driven on the fact that we tax gas so much less than European countries.[/b] We still tax gas, just not as much.[/QUOTE]Well frankly I see that as a very bad thing. [QUOTE]1. Congestion. Europe is much more congested of a region than most given regions in America. High gas tax promote people to use cars when needed, instead of all the time. This reduces congestion, and keeps things flowing better. Congestion simply isn't a major issue for 90% of the urbanized population in America. The places where it is an issue mostly amount to areas that are mega-cities (high populations, think New York, LA, Chicago, etc).[/QUOTE]The Texas Transportation Institute estimated that, in 2000, the 75 largest metropolitan areas experienced 3.6 billion vehicle-hours of delay, resulting in 5.7 billion U.S. gallons (21.6 billion liters) in wasted fuel and $67.5 billion in lost productivity, or about 0.7% of the nation's GDP. It also estimated that the annual cost of congestion for each driver was approximately $1,000 in very large cities and $200 in small cities. Traffic congestion is increasing in major cities and delays are becoming more frequent in smaller cities and rural areas. [url]http://mobility.tamu.edu/ums/[/url] I see this as reason enough to try and tackle our transit problem head-on. [QUOTE]2. Europe has virtually no reliance on Suburban infrastructure, while the majority of the American population lives in a suburban area. Suburbs are designed by nature to be driven on, and they have lower population densities. You simply CANNOT live in a suburb without driving. Making it expensive to drive basically will cause the majority of the American population to have much less spending power than your average European, and completely destroy the lower class who live in suburbs.[/QUOTE]The fact that you need to drive everywhere to live in a US suburb is a bad thing in itself. Europe's suburbs are more like little cities, you can use a car to get where you need to go but you still have the option of walking. Also suburbs eat energy at an alarming rate, far more than any urban or transit oriented development. [url]http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-01-06/classified/sc-cons-0105-suburbs-green-20120106_1_energy-security-eco-friendly-urban-environment[/url] [url]http://content.usatoday.com/communities/greenhouse/post/2011/03/green-suburban-homes-transit-energy-use-/1[/url] [QUOTE]3. Prices of everything will skyrocket, because we have a large financial investment into Semi-truck and national shipping infrastructure. High gas prices will make traveling out of state prohibitive on a personal level (it already is somewhat expensive - my trip I'm taking across the country this summer will cost a total of $550 in gas alone, and I'm running with a 40mpg vehicle). Commercial transportation across the country is going to be too expensive to support at Europe-level gas prices. The economy WILL collapse.[/QUOTE]This is a rather simple fix, raise it over time to allow the market to adjust. This would give shipping companies time to switch over from road to rail, a far more efficient way for hauling goods. Would trucks still be needed? Yes but only for short haul trips like Europe. But why do you use so many trucks now someone may wonder, simple, its the suburbs with stores spread far and wide with poor access to rail. As for that little trip cross the US, by the time the mode switch over efficient means of transport is complete gas prices would have dropped because of lower demand to a point where calculating for inflation we might see that the gas price has not changed all that much. [QUOTE]4. Due to low population density, almost every square inch of urbanized area in America is extremely pedestrian unfriendly. The only places that have a strong public transport and pedestrian transport support are large cities, because they have the population density to support such things. And they pay for that by making it so parking downtown is very expensive. High gas prices require people to walk/bike/scooter/etc to do what they want to do. This is very easy in Europe because the majority of the cities and population centers were designed to have a large amount of pedestrian traffic. And because the population density in Europe is much higher, they can afford much larger scale public transport, meaning that it's literally possible to get almost anywhere in Europe without a car and without it taking several days.[/QUOTE] That is something that would have to change, far flung town might have to grow up fast or risk being abandon. Parking lots will need to be turned into mixed use development and last but not least roads will need to be reconfigured to accommodate public transport, walking, biking etc. This would mean that some housing developments would have to be abandon till the time comes that the density calls for expansion into those areas but all changes come with sacrifices. [QUOTE]5. America has a much larger Rural/Small Town population, or farmer population, than that of Europe. Places where the nearest grocery store is a 30 minute drive on the highway away. If the gas prices here were as highly taxed as Europe, these locations would literally become ghost towns and entire state's economies would crumble, because it would be impossible to afford to live there.[/QUOTE]I kinda have answered this already with admitting that some towns would indeed go under and that some people may need an exception to the gas tax such as poorer people, something that would easily be applied to family farmers. [QUOTE]6. America has much less of a pollution issue as a whole than Europe, simply due to lower concentrations of people. Sure, in mega cities the pollution is an issue, which is why those places generally DO have higher gas prices, expensive parking, and good pedestrian/public transport support. But Europe as a whole, being much higher density, would suffer much higher pollution (and they did, during the industrial revolution), without the prices they have now. They NEED those prices to prevent the whole of Europe having similar pollution levels as a large city would have after 10 years.[/QUOTE]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/US-overall-nonattainment-2007-06.png The US still has major issues with smog and other car related pollution and in some areas other sources of major pollution. Again on the subject of the environment you have the suburbs eating up far more energy then the cities that directly contributes to pollution. Looks like we NEED those prices to prevent more cars from eating up our roads and belching toxic gas everywhere. I guess in closing my point is that we can't stay on the path we are right now and need to make some sacrifices to prevent further damage down the line.

[QUOTE=Political Gamer;36723607] [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Fuel_tax_in_OECD_countries%2C_2010..png[/img] [/QUOTE] If that includes all taxes, not just the "fuel tax" (VAT ect), Finland should be at 4.6$ per US gallon atm if I calculated correctly.

So essentially Political Gamer you're calling for a mass relocation and consolidation of our immense rural population, by taxing those people until their current lifestyle is unsustainable. Just. No.

[QUOTE=DarkMonkey;36727839]So essentially Political Gamer you're calling for a mass relocation and consolidation of our immense rural population, by taxing those people until their current lifestyle is unsustainable. Just. No.[/QUOTE]But the problem is that their current life [i]is[/i] unsustainable to being with. We have been subsidizing the suburban lifestyle for the last 50 years and it needs to end at some point or another even if it means spreading out the buildup over several decades. We can still subsidies rural life but exurban life and suburban life are at their ends. The US is still blindingly addicted to oil and we still lack the proper mechanism to deal it, just ignoring the problem is the worst solution.

Not everyone wants to live in a city. I've been to the city, it's cool and all, but I wouldn't want to live there. Not only are cities much more expensive and dangerous, but arguably the quality of life and education is lower than you'd find in a rural area. Oh, and city drivers are absolute shit too, I don't know how any of them hold a license. Actually city people in general seem short tempered and rude, and I wouldn't want to spend my life around them.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;36731106]Not everyone wants to live in a city. I've been to the city, it's cool and all, but I wouldn't want to live there. Not only are cities much more expensive and dangerous, but arguably the quality of life and education is lower than you'd find in a rural area. Oh, and city drivers are absolute shit too, I don't know how any of them hold a license. Actually city people in general seem short tempered and rude, and I wouldn't want to spend my life around them.[/QUOTE]Never said you [i]had[/i] to live in a big city. Towns are fine if you build them around transit hubs with reasonable density rather then just sprawling out all willy nilly. I can understand the backlash I am getting, we have been conditioned to love the car and switching away from something like that can be hard. The issue is that can't really see any other options beyond (quite literally) driving ourselves into a black hole without some kind of gradual yet dramatic shift.

[QUOTE=Upgrade123;36689651]I never got why America doesn't use trains as much as other countries.[/QUOTE] Depends where you are. Bay Area uses them a lot, as well as the New York City area.

Yeah there's an important distinction between urban and rural. We all agree for the most part that big cities should get their shit together, suburbia's a bit more contentious but public transportation just would not be feasible for the 16% of the population that lives in 90% of the land area. So you get people coming in and saying we should do drastic measures across the board like taxing gas more that would fuck over the people who would be cut off from civilization without an affordable car, and who are dispersed enough that public transit would be more impractical than private. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

[QUOTE=Political Gamer;36716971]Raise the Gas Tax to $1/gal, tie it to inflation, split the rev 50/50, and make all major highways tolled, split the money 50/50. Oh look a shit load of money and new riders for transit! Oh and end all oil subsidies too because its not like the companies need the money when they keep making record profits.[/QUOTE] An interesting suggestion, but toll highways would be a legal nightmare. The freeways were constructed using bonds and tax dollars, the overwhelming majority of the tolled sections of the interstate highway system were constructed separately and added after the fact. Collecting tolls also prevents the majority of them from collecting federal funds for upkeep. Making the American public swallow tolls to use the freeways that they paid for would be a pretty difficult task. EDIT: This is in addition to the previously mentioned problems of gas taxes negatively affecting the poor and/or remotely located with little discernible benefit to them.

[QUOTE=DarkMonkey;36731894]Yeah there's an important distinction between urban and rural. We all agree for the most part that big cities should get their shit together, suburbia's a bit more contentious but public transportation just would not be feasible for the 16% of the population that lives in 90% of the land area. So you get people coming in and saying we should do drastic measures across the board like taxing gas more that would fuck over the people who would be cut off from civilization without an affordable car, and who are dispersed enough that public transit would be more impractical than private. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.[/QUOTE]And like I have said before, mechanisms such as a break from the tax would need to be put in place for those people. The law could even be made to say that gas stations X miles outside of cities could skip the tax, this in turn could help prop up what about be left of the trucking industry and long distance car travelers. [QUOTE=GunFox;36732047]An interesting suggestion, but toll highways would be a legal nightmare. The freeways were constructed using bonds and tax dollars, the overwhelming majority of the tolled sections of the interstate highway system were constructed separately and added after the fact. Collecting tolls also prevents the majority of them from collecting federal funds for upkeep. Making the American public swallow tolls to use the freeways that they paid for would be a pretty difficult task. EDIT: This is in addition to the previously mentioned problems of gas taxes negatively affecting the poor and/or remotely located with little discernible benefit to them.[/QUOTE]Never said it would be an easy thing to do but dumping money into transit systems can only go so far. Sometimes you got to bite the bullet and start pushing from the other end.