• Russians Engineer a Brilliant Slot Machine Cheat—And Casinos Have No Fix
    36 replies, posted
[QUOTE] In 2009, then-PM Vladimir Putin engineered a Russian ban on slot machines in a bid to starve Georgian mafiyeh of funds, the resulting glut of used slots gave Russia's own criminal gangs cheap testbeds to use in a project to reverse-engineer the machines and discover their weaknesses -- now, Russian gangs roam the world's casinos, racking up careful, enormous scores. The gangs have discovered predictable patterns in the machines' pseudorandom number-generators. They use streaming cellphone video (shot through a mesh cutaway breast-pocket) to allow analysts in St Petersburg to characterize the machines' patterns, then those analysts send quarter-second-delayed buzzes through the phones back to the field-operatives, telling them when to stop the slots' spin to maximize payouts. The crooks take no more than $1,000 from any machine, and it took a long time for casino operators to figure out why their machines were paying out more than statistics predicted they should (early versions of the scam required operators to hold their phones up to machines while playing them, go off for a while, then return -- a much more obvious hack that allowed for detection). The FBI have arrested some of the alleged operators, at least one of whom is said to be turning state's evidence, and thus providing the means to unravel the scam. However, slot machine operators have no countermeasures -- apart from surveillance and arrests -- to keep their machines from being gamed this way. [/QUOTE] Source: [URL="https://boingboing.net/2017/02/06/russias-slot-machine-bans-le.html"]Boing Boing[/URL] Full Article (really good read): [URL="https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/"]Wired[/URL]
They don't have hardware RNG on these things? What the fuck are casinos paying for with these things?
How is this illegal? I get that the casinos would ban these people, but on what basis do they get them arrested?
[QUOTE=sgman91;51790517]How is this illegal? I get that the casinos would ban these people, but on what basis do they get them arrested?[/QUOTE] Because lobbyists
I thought the gambling machines were designed to take in a certain amount before they award payouts?
This is basically the same thing as card counting, what is illegal about mathematically figuring out when to stop the slot machine?
[QUOTE=nikomo;51790502]They don't have hardware RNG on these things? What the fuck are casinos paying for with these things?[/QUOTE] Fuck that, extra hardware means we don't make profit instantly. Better leave it to some hack programmers from India (because we can spend pennies per man hour!) or w/e to just read from a totally un-configured PRNG. Nobody will be able to tell! We're geniuses! It's not like using a secure software RNG is hard. We trust them to encrypt our personal details, just fucking use them holy shit.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;51790782]Fuck that, extra hardware means we don't make profit instantly. Better leave it to some hack programmers from India (because we can spend pennies per man hour!) or w/e to just read from a totally un-configured PRNG. Nobody will be able to tell! We're geniuses! It's not like using a secure software RNG is hard. We trust them to encrypt our personal details, just fucking use them holy shit.[/QUOTE] This is even worst than regular PRNG, it's way, way, way more predictable. PRNG would be outputting a different range of possible return values each spin, this is just worse than lazy.
Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.
Somehow, This actually reminds me of the news story that surrounded Call of Duty as someone had made a program that told them what was in crates.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] there's no such thing as infinity either but we can come up with references so large that nobody cares anymore the point of this isn't obtaining pure randomness, it's just that one should expect way better random generation instead of semi-easily predictable mechanical intervals
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] Or have a radio receiver in the machine that listens to atmospheric noise then use that as a seed. Seems p random to me.
[I]just seed your rng lol[/I] [sp](it's a joke) thats not how it works[/sp]
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;51790769]This is basically the same thing as card counting, what is illegal about mathematically figuring out when to stop the slot machine?[/QUOTE] I think because you're supposed to do that all by yourself. Basically what they did is the equivalent of putting a camera on a poker desk you're sitting at and using computer vision to calculate cards for you. Casinos make profit because of people's natural inability to calculate and analyze things as good as computers do. Still, what a surprisingly small delay. I mean, sending frames to the other side of the planet, analyzing them there then sending back a response should accumulate a pretty decent delay, making the whole thing useless, but they somehow managed to keep it reasonably small. And hey, you must still have one hell of a reaction to stop the spin in time.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] There are other things you can do, but it's beyond the point unless you're a theoretical mathematician, or a theoretical computer scientist or something.
Not the first to do this, though they've done it more efficiently. Read Kevin Mitnick's book Art of Intrusion. He recounts an interview he did with a guy who, along with a group of friends, reverse engineered slot machines to figure out their patterns. They had him go in and check the machines, then he'd use a radio transceiver hidden in his shoe to tap out information to his team parked nearby in a van. They've work out the patterns, then respond in a similar way to say when to stop the machines. They finally got caught when several Vegas casinos looked their resources and realized he was having successes at casinos across the strip.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] That's just a myth perpetuated to make students understand that you cannot create true randomness from a series of operations. There are a number of ways to harvest true randomness without tracking radioactive decay.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] You can sample sufficiently random noise from a super cheap webcam. Modern processors also often have an instruction to sample thermal noise that's similarly strong.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] Honestly the manufacturer of slot machines can afford to hook up a particle detector and a banana. Or hell, something as simple as taking an audio sample and hashing it.
Don't they do pseudo-randomization to essentially fake being "fair" when in reality the patterns are meant to screw over a win streak? It's random just enough to be legal, but not random enough that actual sheer luck can win out except in rare situations.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] Its not like its that expensive though to add on. Literally a $5 smoke detector from Walmart is all the electronics (and radioactive isotope) required to make a truly random seed.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;51790809]Lol there are no real random number generators unless you want to hook up some sort of radioactive decay device to each slot machine that generates a random seed every time a particle is released.[/QUOTE] ... Avalanche noise in reverse-biased PN junction? [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/C5q8cjY.png[/IMG] I had to build something like this in school, it's a very trivial thing to do.
[QUOTE=nikomo;51790502]They don't have hardware RNG on these things? What the fuck are casinos paying for with these things?[/QUOTE] Because they're designed to make the casino money not be random lol. If you think gambling is fair and not stacked in the casinos favour at every possible turn you're the kind of guy they're going to rob blind. There's a lot in play to make the machine pay out in a way it appears random but still make the casino money. If it wasn't going to make them money it wouldn't be in the casino.
[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51791317]Because they're designed to make the casino money not be random lol. If you think gambling is fair and not stacked in the casinos favour at every possible turn you're the kind of guy they're going to rob blind. There's a lot in play to make the machine pay out in a way it appears random but still make the casino money. If it wasn't going to make them money it wouldn't be in the casino.[/QUOTE] It's possible to have RNG and also make the casino money. If you have a true random result from 1 to 10, but every result from 1 to 9 makes the casino money, you have both.
[QUOTE=Glent;51791346]It's possible to have RNG and also make the casino money. If you have a true random result from 1 to 10, but every result from 1 to 9 makes the casino money, you have both.[/QUOTE] Yeah but that's basically how this works already. The machine just runs off a system that is apparently predictable after thousands of hours of many "criminal researchers" running these machines in their "labs". The machines are functionally random already, them being "true random" is a complete waste because their scope of function doesn't require that unless you have entire gangs of criminals researching the machine. It's not like we're running default_random_engine instead of mt19937 here, we're talking functionally random enough to be considered random to anyone who doesn't have a couple hundred pages of output data at best. Being mad because the slot machine isn't 100% true random is kinda like being mad because your Honda civic doesn't have an engine beefy enough to go at 200mph when a million dollar race car does. The application for your civic isn't the same and it doesn't need to do as the race car does. We try to not over-engineer things for a reason, maybe now a new standard has been set that we gotta make slot machines more complex or true random, but before this it hasn't been an issue and wasn't considered to be a feature that merited further work on the design.
This sort of thing was done a long time ago by some guys in the US. Basically a group of guys bought a slot machine, spent some time reverse engineering it, and then made a rig to predict when to stop it based on various factors like time and what cards it had previously shown.
[QUOTE=nikomo;51790502]They don't have hardware RNG on these things? What the fuck are casinos paying for with these things?[/QUOTE] i think its more of a case that the RNG isnt random on a slot machine since the house has to clear a certain % of the time, thus you can model the behavior easier
Lot of people already do this. The thing about slots is that after watching for about twenty minutes, you can easily predict where the machines will go and when to click to get the right lines.
[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51791499]Yeah but that's basically how this works already. The machine just runs off a system that is apparently predictable after thousands of hours of many "criminal researchers" running these machines in their "labs". The machines are functionally random already, them being "true random" is a complete waste because their scope of function doesn't require that unless you have entire gangs of criminals researching the machine. It's not like we're running default_random_engine instead of mt19937 here, we're talking functionally random enough to be considered random to anyone who doesn't have a couple hundred pages of output data at best. Being mad because the slot machine isn't 100% true random is kinda like being mad because your Honda civic doesn't have an engine beefy enough to go at 200mph when a million dollar race car does. The application for your civic isn't the same and it doesn't need to do as the race car does. We try to not over-engineer things for a reason, maybe now a new standard has been set that we gotta make slot machines more complex or true random, but before this it hasn't been an issue and wasn't considered to be a feature that merited further work on the design.[/QUOTE] Cryptographically secure random number generators can allow you to read gigabytes of output without being able to discern the seed. This is just incompetence, plain and simple.
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;51790769]This is basically the same thing as card counting, what is illegal about mathematically figuring out when to stop the slot machine?[/QUOTE] Card counting would be illegal too if you were filming the cards, sending the footage to a team of people outside the casino, and having them message you what to do.
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