Pit bull jumps 6-foot fence, attacks 9-year-old Birmingham boy - Polidicks

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48786820]All of these reasons seem like good reasons to not have them as pets.[/QUOTE] All of those apply to literally every [del]breed of dog[/del] Animal. Legislation banning breeds only enforces the stigma and makes things worse. You're falling for media sensationalism of the stigma these dogs have. Pit bulls have such a bad reputation as brutal dogs, that what some uneducated person decides he wants to buy a dog to scare off intruders, what is he going to buy? The stigma you are creating is making this dog the pariah it is. If people weren't predisposed to attach this breed to violence, it wouldn't be sought after as a guard dog. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] And saying [I]These dogs are sooo bad that we the government decided you can't have them[/I] is only going to make people who want them for scary dogs wan them even more.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48778708]Not sure if other breeds of dog when they attack typically make headlines unless it's fatal so it's difficult to know if Pit-Bulls are statistically worse. Anyone know?[/QUOTE] Statistics mean jackshit when you don't look at [I]why[/I] the statistics are like that, like let's take black people in a ghetto, do they statistically have a higher chance of committing crimes, yes. So let's lock up every single black person in the US. Oh wait it doesn't work like that. Bending statistics to fit your agenda is worse than making them up. Also about fences, I've generally heard that the length of the dog times three(four if it's a breed known to be able to jump really well) is a good starting point.

[QUOTE=OvB;48786857]All of those apply to literally every [del]breed of dog[/del] Animal. Legislation banning breeds only enforces the stigma and makes things worse. You're falling for media sensationalism of the stigma these dogs have. Pit bulls have such a bad reputation as brutal dogs, that what some uneducated person decides he wants to buy a dog to scare off intruders, what is he going to buy? The stigma you are creating is making this dog the pariah it is. If people weren't predisposed to attach this breed to violence, it wouldn't be sought after as a guard dog. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] And saying [I]These dogs are sooo bad that we the government decided you can't have them[/I] is only going to make people who want them for scary dogs wan them even more.[/QUOTE] My point of view is derived from facts, my mind cannot ignore the statistic regardless of how many people here keep saying "it's the owners" or "my mates dog is lovely" blah blah The type of person that is attracted to a big dog that has been bred solely for fighting isn't going to change, therefore the statistic of fatal dog attacks being largely pitbulls isn't going to change either. The British Government decided to ban them and rightly so in my opinion. There are more than enough dog breeds for this world to continue without this one and saving 40 odd lives a year seems like a step in the right direction to me. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE]Statistics mean jackshit when you don't look at why the statistics are like that, like let's take black people in a ghetto, do they statistically have a higher chance of committing crimes, yes. So let's lock up every single black person in the US. Oh wait it doesn't work like that. Bending statistics to fit your agenda is worse than making them up.[/QUOTE] That is an analogy that [I]you[/I] made up.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48778652]The difference is that raising a chihuahua badly doesn't turn it into a murder machine.[/QUOTE] it deffo can any and all dogs could be dangerous if theyre trained to be some breeds are just better at it

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48786910]My point of view is derived from facts, my mind cannot ignore the statistic regardless of how many people here keep saying "it's the owners" or "my mates dog is lovely" blah blah The type of person that is attracted to a big dog that has been bred solely for fighting isn't going to change, therefore the statistic of fatal dog attacks being largely pitbulls isn't going to change either. The British Government decided to ban them and rightly so in my opinion. There are more than enough dog breeds for this world to continue without this one and saving 40 odd lives a year seems like a step in the right direction to me. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] That is an analogy that [I]you[/I] made up.[/QUOTE] You claim to derive your point of view from fact but only single out the reactionary view pit bulls = bad ones and ignore everything that says they are great dogs. You have let fear drive your opinion which is in fact [I]harmful[/I] to the general public in this case. [quote]The type of person that is attracted to a big dog that has been bred solely for fighting isn't going to change, therefore the statistic of fatal dog attacks being largely pitbulls isn't going to change either.[/quote] This is a factually incorrect generalization derived from fear. [quote]The British Government decided to ban them and rightly so in my opinion.[/quote] [url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/more-3000-pit-bulls-britain-5762750]The ban was a failure[/url] [quote]There are more than enough dog breeds for this world to continue without this one and saving 40 odd lives a year seems like a step in the right direction to me.[/quote] You're not going to save lives because people are still going to buy them. Bans don't work.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48786910] There are more than enough dog breeds for this world to continue without this one and saving 40 odd lives a year seems like a step in the right direction to me. [/QUOTE] so say we do kill off literally all of the pit bulls and ban them from being owned does that somehow mean that people looking for an attack dog will suddenly give up? there are other breeds that are just as capable attack dogs as pit bulls. is there any evidence that banning pit bulls reduces overall fatalities from dog attacks

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;48787106]so say we do kill off literally all of the pit bulls and ban them from being owned does that somehow mean that people looking for an attack dog will suddenly give up? there are other breeds that are just as capable attack dogs as pit bulls. is there any evidence that banning pit bulls reduces overall fatalities from dog attacks[/QUOTE] People will move on to German Shepherds, and advocates will say execute them all, too. Then they'll move to rottweilers, and so on and so fourth until the only dog we're legally allowed to own are little worthless ankle biters that don't shut the fuck up. Gangs will operate death squads of Pomeranians that have been bred for speed, muscle, and jumping ability that are trained to trip up victims and go for the neck. A stigma will form around Pomeranians. People will buy them spiked collars and muzzles and keep them in their front yard as a "don't mess with me." Then the government will decide that we're just too irresponsible to have anything and pets as a whole will be outlawed and punishable with jail time for endangerment.

[QUOTE]The type of person that is attracted to a big dog that has been bred solely for fighting isn't going to change, therefore the statistic of fatal dog attacks being largely pitbulls isn't going to change either.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]This is a factually incorrect generalization derived from fear. [/QUOTE] The fact that pitbulls only attack because of the way they are reared is the main reason cited here for the problem, not my reason. [QUOTE][url]http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/more-3000-pit-bulls-britain-5762750[/url][/QUOTE] Not a failure, how many pitbulls would there be if the ban did not exist. [QUOTE]You're not going to save lives because people are still going to buy them. Bans don't work.[/QUOTE] So you believe that it would save lives only you are arguing against bans now and not the fact that the breed kills. My point is that if you did not breed this dog any more that 40+ lives a year would be saved, this is regardless of whether the fault lies with the dog, the owner or Lord Lucan. There isn't any other solution, so..

Guy with a german tank avatar talking about forcibly making a breed extinct :v:

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48787139]The fact that pitbulls only attack because of the way they are reared is the main reason cited here for the problem, not my reason. Not a failure, how many pitbulls would there be if the ban did not exist. So you believe that it would save lives only you are arguing against bans now and not the fact that the breed kills. My point is that if you did not breed this dog any more that 40+ lives a year would be saved, this is regardless of whether the fault lies with the dog, the owner or Lord Lucan. There isn't any other solution, so..[/QUOTE] They will move on and train other dogs to be guard dogs. Have you ever seen a Bull Mastiff? It won't be but a few generations before we're having to revisit the same issue because people bred dogs to be guard dogs because you did nothing to address the fear of them, instead you enforced the fear. How many dogs have to die before it's safe to go outside?

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48787139]The fact that pitbulls only attack because of the way they are reared is the main reason cited here for the problem, not my reason. Not a failure, how many pitbulls would there be if the ban did not exist. So you believe that it would save lives only you are arguing against bans now and not the fact that the breed kills. My point is that if you did not breed this dog any more that 40+ lives a year would be saved, this is regardless of whether the fault lies with the dog, the owner or Lord Lucan. There isn't any other solution, so..[/QUOTE] Sacrifice 4.6 million animals for 40 people? [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] Last I heard genocide was bad

Money that would go to waste creating a bureaucracy and a system of enforcement to further stigmatize and spread fear of pit bulls would be much better spent funding mobile neuter vans operated by someone like the ASPCA where they collect and neuter strays and pets for free, and creating PSA ad's and an online resource where people can get facts on dog ownership and links to resources to obtain/give away dogs if need be.

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;48787106]so say we do kill off literally all of the pit bulls and ban them from being owned does that somehow mean that people looking for an attack dog will suddenly give up? there are other breeds that are just as capable attack dogs as pit bulls. is there any evidence that banning pit bulls reduces overall fatalities from dog attacks[/QUOTE] I never suggested killing off all existing pitbulls, I suggested not breeding them any more. There are plenty of other capable attack dogs and they collectively do not kill as many people as pitbulls. If pitbulls didn't exist obviously the statistic that they kill 40+ people a year in the US wouldn't either.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48787193]I never suggested killing off all existing pitbulls, I suggested not breeding them any more. There are plenty of other capable attack dogs and they collectively do not kill as many people as pitbulls. If pitbulls didn't exist obviously the statistic that they kill 40+ people a year in the US wouldn't either.[/QUOTE] Blanket solutions don't work though. You are ignoring OvB and everyone else's point that you rid the world of one breed another will be used. You perpetuate the issue and repeat the cycle

[QUOTE=ghghop;48787171]Sacrifice 4.6 million animals for 40 people? [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] Last I heard genocide was bad[/QUOTE] Again I am not suggesting killing anything, simply stop breeding them.

All you would have to do is ban the sale and breeding of the breed and after X years from the law enactment you could initiate fines for owning a pitbull illegally. You wouldn't have to euthanize millions of animals, or going door to door seizing peoples family pets, you just start shrinking their numbers, and eventually you wont see a pitbull on every block. Dog fighters would still illegally breed them and fight them, which they already do, but it would stop Joe Everydouchebag from getting a puppy from a 'breeder' without knowing where it came from and then bringing violent genes into the general dog population. It wouldn't fix the problem overnight, but it would ultimately help.

[QUOTE=ghghop;48787206]Blanket solutions don't work though. You are ignoring OvB and everyone else's point that you rid the world of one breed another will be used. You perpetuate the issue and repeat the cycle[/QUOTE] Can you read? [QUOTE]There are plenty of other capable attack dogs and they collectively do not kill as many people as pitbulls.[/QUOTE] In fact all of the other dog breeds combined do not kill half as many as pitbulls do!

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48787213]Again I am not suggesting killing anything, simply stop breeding them.[/QUOTE] Extinction is extinction no matter how you phrase it

[QUOTE=ghghop;48787253]Extinction is extinction no matter how you phrase it[/QUOTE] That's like saying you shouldn't spay and neuter strays, which you absolutely should. You're sterilizing that wild dog population in the area, but it's not an extinction in the slightest. It would be the same for pitbulls, you would decrease their population in the US, but they would of course still thrive in other countries. It's not even remotely an extinction.

[QUOTE=ghghop;48787253]Extinction is extinction no matter how you phrase it[/QUOTE] 40 human lives a year is worth the extinction of 1 dog breed.

Lets play a game: This is the description of a Pit Bull (American bull Terrier), Pomeranian, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, and Chihuahua in no particular order. [quote]**** are typically a very friendly, playful and lively breed of dog, but are often aggressive to other dogs[9][10] They love to be around their owners and are known to be protective of them.[11] **** are alert and aware of changes in their environment and barking at new stimuli can develop into a habit of barking excessively in any situation. They are somewhat defensive of their territory and will thus bark a lot when they encounter any outside noises.[12] **** are intelligent dogs, respond well to training, and can be very successful in getting what they want from their owners.[11] They are extroverted and enjoy being the center of attention but can become quite aggressive and dominant if not well trained.[11] The use of toys can be an effective tool in encouraging **** to spend time alone.[/quote] [quote]The essential characteristics of the **** are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. **** make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most **** exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the **** requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The **** is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.[18][/quote] [quote]The temperament of the **** is a hallmark of the breed, and is described in the standard as "kindly, friendly and confident".[10] **** make good family pets, particularly as they are patient with children.[2] They are not "one-man dogs" and are generally equally amiable with both strangers and those familiar to them.[16] Their trusting, gentle disposition makes them a poor guard dog.[17] Any form of unprovoked aggression or hostility towards either people, dogs or other animals, whether in the show ring or community, is considered unacceptable in a **** and is not in keeping with the character of the breed, nor should a **** be unduly timid or nervous.[13][16] The typical **** is calm, naturally intelligent and biddable, and with an exceptional eagerness to please.[/quote] [quote]The temperament of its owner can make a difference in the temperament of the pup. Tempered **** can be easily provoked to attack, and are therefore generally unsuitable for homes with small children.[18] The breed tends to be fiercely loyal to one particular person and in some cases may become over protective of the person, especially around other people or animals. If properly managed by older children, 13 and up, they can adapt to this kind of living with a dedicated owner. They do not always get along with other breeds,[18] and tend to have a "clannish" nature, often preferring the companionship of other **** or **** mixes over other dogs.[19] These traits generally make them unsuitable for households with children who are not patient and calm.[15] **** love their dens and will often burrow themselves in pillows, clothes hampers, and blankets. They are often found under the covers or at the bottom of the bed, deep in the dark and safety of what they perceive as their den.[/quote] [quote]**** are highly active dogs and described in breed standards as self-assured.[10] The breed is marked by a willingness to learn and an eagerness to have a purpose. They are curious, which makes them excellent guard dogs and suitable for search missions. They can become over-protective of their family and territory, especially if not socialized correctly. They are not inclined to become immediate friends with strangers.[17] **** are highly intelligent and obedient[/quote] Which one is the pit bull?

[QUOTE=OvB;48787286]Lets play a game: This is the description of a Pit Bull (American bull Terrier), Pomeranian, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, and Chihuahua in no particular order. Which one is the pit bull?[/QUOTE] It's the one that kills 40 odd people a year.

Ovb I love you.

[QUOTE=OvB;48787286]Lets play a game[/QUOTE] Let's not. The problem isn't necessarily the traits of the breed as much as it is that pit bulls are the go-to "tough" dog. The traits do factor into the equation, but often the conditions in which pits are adopted and then treated in their new home contribute much more to aggressive behavior. And once a pit gets aggressive, they are a [I]lot[/I] harder to restrain than, say, a German Shepherd which would probably get the hint if you kicked it hard enough. It's just disingenuous to not look at the big picture.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;48787309]Let's not. The problem isn't necessarily the traits of the breed as much as it is that pit bulls are the go-to "tough" dog. The traits do factor into the equation, but often the conditions in which pits are adopted and then treated in their new home contribute much more to aggressive behavior. And once a pit gets aggressive, they are a [I]lot[/I] harder to restrain than, say, a German Shepherd which would probably get the hint if you kicked it hard enough. It's just disingenuous to not look at the big picture.[/QUOTE] Pure statistics isn't the big picture

It's contrary to argue against the facts.

[QUOTE=ghghop;48787350]Pure statistics isn't the big picture[/QUOTE] I never once said anything about statistics. My argument was that it's completely disingenuous to look at the traits of the breed without factoring in the environment in which they are raised. This does work both ways - you can't say "look, they can be nurtured into good dogs!" without accepting the fact that there is a group on the opposite side of the spectrum. The problem with the bad group of dog owners is they aren't as likely to fix their pets, causing more bad pets to go out into the world.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48787273]40 human lives a year is worth the extinction of 1 dog breed.[/QUOTE] again, what evidence do you have that removing pit bulls will reduce the deaths from dog attacks as OvB has been saying for literally the whole thread, pit bulls are disproportionately represented in dog attack fatality statistics not because they are somehow leagues better than other dogs at killing, but because they are the go-to for people looking for dogs that do damage (because they have a [I]reputation[/I] for being good at killing) if you remove pit bulls from the mix, you will still have shitheads looking for attack dogs. the deaths that occur from pit bull attacks could very well just be replaced by the next best attack dog breed. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=karlosfandango;48787364]It's contrary to argue against the facts.[/QUOTE] thats true, but we arent arguing against the facts, we are arguing against your biased interpretation of the facts

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;48787380] if you remove pit bulls from the mix, you will still have shitheads looking for attack dogs. the deaths that occur from pit bull attacks could very well just be replaced by the next best attack dog breed.[/QUOTE] This is definitely true. 40 deaths a year caused by a certain breed is sad, but you just have to accept that it happens. You can't call people out on being emotionally attached to a breed by saying "but they're killing [I]PEOPLE[/I]", it's a bit hypocritical to complain about emotion with emotion as your argument. Each year, one dog is going to kill at least one person. 40 people total in one year is honestly a great number. Let me be clear about my view on pitbulls - I don't like them, but trying to get rid of them is far more effort than it's worth.

[QUOTE=Crimor;48787141]Guy with a german tank avatar talking about forcibly making a breed extinct :v:[/QUOTE] I can change it to a russian one if it would make you feel better v:v:v [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Protocol7;48787405]This is definitely true. 40 deaths a year caused by a certain breed is sad, but you just have to accept that it happens. You can't call people out on being emotionally attached to a breed by saying "but they're killing [I]PEOPLE[/I]", it's a bit hypocritical to complain about emotion with emotion as your argument. Each year, one dog is going to kill at least one person. 40 people total in one year is honestly a great number. Let me be clear about my view on pitbulls - I don't like them, but trying to get rid of them is far more effort than it's worth.[/QUOTE] Where is that "40 deaths/year from pit bull attacks in the US" statistic coming from anyway? All data I can find only says ~25 deaths [I]total[/I] from dog attacks, let alone pit bull attacks