University of Michigan Students Demand ‘Non-Whites Only’ Space for social justice work - Polidicks

You can't really fight for social justice if you're excluding part of... society

[QUOTE=Keyblockor1;51871390]It's actually advocating for segregation though???[/QUOTE] I disagree with this petition, but equating it to segregation in the past is being offensively ignorant of the sort of racism that blacks and other racial minorities endured for centuries. You're trying to say that minorities attempting to create a space where they can discuss discrimination and hate crimes they experience is as bad as discrimination and hate crimes themselves. I find that laughably simplistic and sorely lacking in empathy.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51871805]I disagree with this petition, but equating it to segregation in the past is being offensively ignorant of the sort of racism that blacks and other racial minorities endured for centuries. You're trying to say that minorities attempting to create a space where they can discuss discrimination and hate crimes they experience is as bad as discrimination and hate crimes themselves. I find that laughably simplistic and sorely lacking in empathy.[/QUOTE] I find it hilariously ignorant you can't see the comparison at all. How easy would it be to rebrand actual segregation as "what's wrong with white people attempting to create a space where they can discuss discrimination?"

[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;51871823]I find it hilariously ignorant you can't see the comparison at all. How easy would it be to rebrand actual segregation as "what's wrong with white people attempting to create a space where they can discuss discrimination?"[/QUOTE] Come on. This has to be a joke right? Actual segregation: "We don't like blacks. We'll create a separate space for them so we don't have to interact with them." This: "We don't like how white people have treated us in the past. We'll create a separate space for ourselves so we can discuss this without them interfering." As I said, I don't agree with it. Excluding the agents of discrimination from the conversation is counterproductive. But at least try to understand why they're doing this, and why the motivations for the two types of "segregation" are completely different and not at all comparable.

[quote]The student organization’s request for a nonhites-only space to organize social justice efforts comes amid the university’s plans to construct a [B]$10-million multicultural center geared toward African-Americans and other nonwhite students[/B]. While the center will be open to students of all backgrounds, it was built at the request of student group “Being Black at the University of Michigan,” which argued that Black students were being marginalized because the original multicultural center they used was located on the far perimeter of campus, according to The Campus Fix.[/quote] There are people subjecting themselves to ungodly amounts of debt and uncomfortable, shoestring budget living, working long hours to try and stay afloat and receive an education.. And you're spending $10 million on this? Go fuck yourselves. [editline]25th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;51871832]Come on. This has to be a joke right? Actual segregation: "We don't like blacks. We'll create a separate space for them so we don't have to interact with them." This: "We don't like how white people have treated us in the past. We'll create a separate space for ourselves so we can discuss this without them interfering." As I said, I don't agree with it. Excluding the agents of discrimination from the conversation is counterproductive. But at least try to understand why they're doing this, and why the motivations for the two types of "segregation" are completely different and not at all comparable.[/QUOTE] What a weak way of rationalizing racial segregation. Of course being excluded from a pretentious political club at some shithole university isn't on the same level of evil as Jim Crow laws and legislative segregation and discrimination of the past, but it's still by definition racial segregation and their "justifications" are nonsense. If there are troublesome white people who are being rude and otherwise behaving inappropriately when the non-white students gather to "do their social justice work", they can be dealt with individually rather than by creating a literal "no whites zone" in a university. [editline]25th February 2017[/editline] Grow a fucking spine and quit trying to pretend like everything these groups do is borne of some deeper, genuine motivation and completely detached from racism. Come hang out at an American university and talk to some of these kids. The people advocating for a no-whites zone just have an issue with whites, end of.

So is every day racism just becoming a thing again? What the hell is wrong with the world all of a sudden.

[QUOTE=srobins;51871876]There are people subjecting themselves to ungodly amounts of debt and uncomfortable, shoestring budget living, working long hours to try and stay afloat and receive an education.. And you're spending $10 million on this? Go fuck yourselves. [editline]25th February 2017[/editline] What a weak way of rationalizing racial segregation. Of course being excluded from a pretentious political club at some shithole university isn't on the same level of evil as Jim Crow laws and legislative segregation and discrimination of the past, but it's still by definition racial segregation and their "justifications" are nonsense. If there are troublesome white people who are being rude and otherwise behaving inappropriately when the non-white students gather to "do their social justice work", they can be dealt with individually rather than by creating a literal "no whites zone" in a university. [editline]25th February 2017[/editline] Grow a fucking spine and quit trying to pretend like everything these groups do is borne of some deeper, genuine motivation and completely detached from racism. Come hang out at an American university and talk to some of these kids. The people advocating for a no-whites zone just have an issue with whites, end of.[/QUOTE] I'm not rationalising it. I'm saying that [i]equating[/i] the two is dumb. Both are bad but one is clearly on a whole different level; racism against minorities deserves no sympathy while racism from minorities is borne at least partially from resentment against the historical prejudice they experienced. Do you really think that there would be such a huge anti-white movement if minorities hadn't been trodden on for hundreds of years?

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51871972]I'm not rationalising it. I'm saying that [i]equating[/i] the two is dumb. Both are bad but one is clearly on a whole different level; racism against minorities deserves no sympathy while racism from minorities is borne at least partially from resentment against the historical prejudice they experienced. Do you really think that there would be such a huge anti-white movement if minorities hadn't been trodden on for hundreds of years?[/QUOTE] Just because I understand where racism from minorities comes from doesn't make it excusable. It's still degeneracy and still every bit as destructive to society as racism from the majority. I'm Indian myself, and a firm believer in the scientific perspective that race does not exist. Many Americans might think I'm Muslim because of the color of my skin. If we can't be better than this, society isn't going to get any better. It divides and segregates people, makes enemies based on hereditary traits rather than life choices, and is the bane of a free and equal society. Those who engage in it are due no more sympathy than Nazis.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51871988]Just because I understand where racism from minorities comes from doesn't make it excusable. It's still degeneracy and still every bit as destructive to society as racism from the majority. I'm Indian myself, and a firm believer in the scientific perspective that race does not exist. Many Americans might think I'm Muslim because of the color of my skin. If we can't be better than this, society isn't going to get any better. It divides and segregates people, makes enemies based on hereditary traits rather than life choices, and is the bane of a free and equal society. Those who engage in it are due no more sympathy than Nazis.[/QUOTE] It's not excusable. I'm not justifying it. I'm not rationalising it. I'm explaining it for those who don't seem to understand why some people think it's okay to exclude whites, much in the way I explain why seemingly normal people get convinced to join extremist movements like ISIS.

Archangel your recurring use of the term "degeneracy" would be pretty funny if it wasn't real fuckin scary considering the fact you would have been called one not a hundred years ago. If you're so keen on using big words, how about you try this one: hypocrisy.

[QUOTE=false prophet;51871906]So is every day racism just becoming a thing again? What the hell is wrong with the world all of a sudden.[/QUOTE] I think the answer lies in Identity Politics.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51872009]Archangel your recurring use of the term "degeneracy" would be pretty funny if it wasn't real fuckin scary considering the fact you would have been called one not a hundred years ago. If you're so keen on using big words, how about you try this one: hypocrisy.[/QUOTE] Do you know the meaning of the word 'degenerate'? I suggest you look it up. It implies physical, moral or intellectual devolution - I use it in the moral and intellectual context. A regression, in other words, to outdated ways of thinking that caused incredible harm in the world at large and brought us most of the social problems we have today.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51872034]Do you know the meaning of the word 'degenerate'? I suggest you look it up. It implies physical, moral or intellectual devolution -[B] I use it in the moral and intellectual context.[/B] A regression, in other words, to outdated ways of thinking that caused incredible harm in the world at large and brought us most of the social problems we have today.[/QUOTE] So did everyone who used the term fifty years ago, except it was homosexuals they blamed for causing incredible harm in the world at large, bringing most of the social problems they would have at the time.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51872044]So did everyone who used the term fifty years ago.[/QUOTE] Quite. It's incredibly subjective in its use. And my usage of it is all for the shock value - just like the alt-right loves using it. We live in fucked up times, where society can't even agree on what truth is anymore, and a huge portion of the population stands in complete opposition to observable, documented physical reality. The time for reasoned discourse is over, until the threat that this new US regime represents can be expunged.

How can one man be so oblivious to history ? "The Truth" has always been subject to discussion. 30 years ago, "the truth" was that homosexuals were aids-spreading freaks. 60 years ago, "the truth" was that blacks should be segregated because it made society safer and more productive. And guess what, there's always morons calling the opposition "degenerates" and "the threat". These people are usually the ones history remembers as empty-headed fear-mongering buffoons who stoked the flames while people who actually gave a shit were striving to find a solution that would last.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51872102]How can one man be so oblivious to history ? "The Truth" has always been subject to discussion. 30 years ago, "the truth" was that homosexuals were aids-spreading freaks. 60 years ago, "the truth" was that blacks should be segregated because it made society safer and more productive. And guess what, there's always morons calling the opposition "degenerates" and "the threat". These people are usually the ones history remembers as empty-headed fear-mongering buffoons who stoked the flames while people who actually gave a shit were striving to find a solution that would last.[/QUOTE] You act like Trump has been a sane presidency

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51872112]You act like Trump has been a sane presidency[/QUOTE] What the fuck does Trump have to do with this ?

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51872102]How can one man be so oblivious to history ? "The Truth" has always been subject to discussion. 30 years ago, "the truth" was that homosexuals were aids-spreading freaks. 60 years ago, "the truth" was that blacks should be segregated because it made society safer and more productive. And guess what, there's always morons calling the opposition "degenerates" and "the threat". These people are usually the ones history remembers as empty-headed fear-mongering buffoons who stoked the flames while people who actually gave a shit were striving to find a solution that would last.[/QUOTE] You might notice something in common with the "truths" that have been discredited: they tend to be discriminatory against people for who they are rather than what they think. Archangel's use of the word 'degenerate' to describe intolerant views is far more legitimate than historical use of it to describe minorities.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51872124]What the fuck does Trump have to do with this ?[/QUOTE] ah I think my SH threads have blurred together.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51872125]You might notice something in common with the "truths" that have been discredited: they tend to be discriminatory against people for who they are rather than what they think. Archangel's use of the word 'degenerate' to describe intolerant views is far more legitimate than historical use of it to describe minorities.[/QUOTE] It's equally as shitty because it implies inherent righteousness in a cause, which is [I]never[/I] true. If you can't find a reason to justify or properly reason around a social change you wish to see, then it's either not a good social change or you're not the right person to push it. And if your only argument to defend something is to appeal to its perceived inherent/automatic/obvious nature, then your argument is shit. Calling the opposition "degenerates" is no different than saying "this should be that way because it's the way it was meant to be". It has no ground, no value, no weight. The constant questioning and search for better answers is what allows us to move forward. The refusal to question things in favor of a dogmatic approach backed up by name-calling is dangerous, no matter the cause or theory or anything you want to support.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51872102]How can one man be so oblivious to history ? "The Truth" has always been subject to discussion. 30 years ago, "the truth" was that homosexuals were aids-spreading freaks. 60 years ago, "the truth" was that blacks should be segregated because it made society safer and more productive. And guess what, there's always morons calling the opposition "degenerates" and "the threat". These people are usually the ones history remembers as empty-headed fear-mongering buffoons who stoked the flames while people who actually gave a shit were striving to find a solution that would last.[/QUOTE] What exactly are you trying to argue here? The truths I'm talking about are the simplest things imaginable. I'm not talking about metaphysical assumptions here, I'm talking about quantifiable, documented, statistically supported reality. Everything from the new administration's stance on climate change, despite nearly seventy years of evidence documenting and tracking its effects, to the President's calling any negative reporting or polling 'fake news'. I'm talking about a complete rejection of any inconvenient truths as 'fake' on the part of both Donald Trump himself and his fan club. Here's a choice quote from his recent press conference demonstrating exactly that: [quote]QUESTION: I just want to get you to clarify this very important point. Can you say definitively that nobody on your campaign had any contacts with the Russians during the campaign? And on the leaks, is it fake news or are these real leaks? TRUMP: Well the leaks are real. You're the one that wrote about them and reported them, I mean the leaks are real. You know what they said, you saw it and the leaks are absolutely real. The news is fake because so much of the news is fake.[/quote] Even the great orange fuck-up himself couldn't avoid stumbling over the contradictions in his own bullshit. This is an assault on human intelligence and humanity in itself. You know, two years ago I was of the opinion that it was dangerous to be so militantly adherent to an ideology that one started seeing other people in the way I now see the Trump administration and his cronies. And to be honest, I still am. What I'm becoming scares the hell out of me, and I am the way I am because I no longer know how to deal with an opponent that completely rejects the truth. Again, not debatable truth. Quantifiable truth. It would be foolhardy to pretend that this admin, which has attacked both news media and the judiciary, does not pose a threat. They have already taken steps that have hurt thousands of people, from their heavy-handed immigration enforcement to their attempt at a travel ban. They are undoing decades of social progress, and dividing Americans more and more in the process, polarizing them further. To say or do nothing would be folly. To act too rashly would be worse. What, then, can we do?

If someone thinks something as statistically backed up as climate change isn't real, you don't fix the situation by calling them degenerates and calling for a purge, claiming humanity can only move forward once the "threat" is expunged. The reason those realities are accepted as such is because, as you said, they are backed up by facts and statistics and tangible evidence - and those didn't just drop from the sky like a holy book. People figured them out, and they didn't figure them out just to call anyone who disagrees a degenerate. Taking anything as dogma is dumb. Someone doubts something, you either present them with proper reasoning using those facts and statistics or you shut the fuck up and let someone more able than you explain why something is the way it is. And, yes, there are times where saying nothing is better than saying something - especially if saying something is "degenerates are a threat that need to be expunged from our society".

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51872200]If someone thinks something as statistically backed up as climate change isn't real, you don't fix the situation by calling them degenerates and calling for a purge, claiming humanity can only move forward once the "threat" is expunged. The reason those realities are accepted as such is because, as you said, they are backed up by facts and statistics and tangible evidence - and those didn't just drop from the sky like a holy book. People figured them out, and they didn't figure them out just to call anyone who disagrees a degenerate. Taking anything as dogma is dumb. Someone doubts something, you either present them with proper reasoning using those facts and statistics or you shut the fuck up and let someone more able than you explain why something is the way it is.[/QUOTE] If I really was too far gone for help, I'd actually call for a purge. I haven't. I've always checked myself before I went quite that far, because that would be madness. I want a competent government in the United States, a responsible one. One that can help address the problems that have been dividing people while juggling the responsibilities of state, something the one currently in power is clearly incapable of doing. I care so much not only because my country shares a border with the United States, but because I've got loved ones living there. As for my classification of bigotry using the loaded word of 'degeneracy', that's something I'm less able to defend. That's born of anger. I grew up here hoping that my generation was better educated, more curious and free of the backwards prejudices of the last - or at least better able to understand the mistakes previous generations had made. In the last year and a half I've found out just how wrong I was, and it's made me incredibly angry and disillusioned with humanity as a whole. Far from being better, even a little better, we're even worse. I studied to be a social worker. I don't think I'd touch that job with a ten-foot pole now.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51871972]I'm not rationalising it. I'm saying that [i]equating[/i] the two is dumb. Both are bad but one is clearly on a whole different level; racism against minorities deserves no sympathy while racism from minorities is borne at least partially from resentment against the historical prejudice they experienced. Do you really think that there would be such a huge anti-white movement if minorities hadn't been trodden on for hundreds of years?[/QUOTE] Point is that being racist back isn't any better and it's not a solution either.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51872128]ah I think my SH threads have blurred together.[/QUOTE] Sounds like you need to get out more.

[QUOTE=evil-tedoz;51870950]People should stop catering to these special snowflakes and bring them back to reality.[/QUOTE] from what it sounds, theyre not doing this because they feel entitled, theyre doing this because they have an alarming amount of hate crimes, of course theyve also had an alarming amount of fake hate crimes too...