[QUOTE=Gum100;51654617]From a purely pragmatic point of view, I'm of the opinion that a human being is always more useful alive than dead. Would the net gain for society not be greater if death row inmates were instead put towards labor/experimentation? Obviously you can argue that's unethical, but why is it more-so unethical than execution?[/QUOTE]
I'm at a loss for words.
[QUOTE=Stopper;51654731]I'm at a loss for words.[/QUOTE]
With respect, can you go into more detail?
To clarify, my point is meant specifically as an argument against the death penalty, rather than an endorsement of anything else, assuming I'm understanding your objection.
[QUOTE=Gum100;51654821]With respect, can you go into more detail?
To clarify, my point is meant specifically as an argument against the death penalty, rather than an endorsement of anything else, assuming I'm understanding your objection.[/QUOTE]
To clarify, you're [i]not[/i] for medically experimenting on prisoners, correct? Because that would be... Not cool.
Ignoring that, the reason why it's more unethical than straight up execution is that medical experimentation can often have unintended, painful, dangerous and deadly side effects. The word "torture" comes to mind. So in many ways, executing people is better than torturing them, I guess? Where would you draw a line? What would you do with the prisoners after you've concluded your "research"? Because remember, you need control groups and repeatability, so you can't use the same person for different research. Do we just discard them as medical waste? Is any of this okay?
[QUOTE=Stopper;51654857]To clarify, you're [i]not[/i] for medically experimenting on prisoners, correct? Because that would be... Not cool.
Ignoring that, the reason why it's more unethical than straight up execution is that medical experimentation can often have unintended, painful, dangerous and deadly side effects. The word "torture" comes to mind. So in many ways, executing people is better than torturing them, I guess? Where would you draw a line? What would you do with the prisoners after you've concluded your "research"? Because remember, you need control groups and repeatability, so you can't use the same person for different research. Do we just discard them as medical waste? Is any of this okay?[/QUOTE]
Well, in a best case scenario, I'd like to think it would be done with both the prisoners consent, and an ethical review of the intended experimentation beforehand. It's not exactly a black and white issue. But my core point boils down the idea of the death penalty being especially pointless in light of alternatives.
While we're at it, I believe I've said this in a previous thread, but there's [URL="https://vimeo.com/83750163"]evidence[/URL] that, [URL="http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2006/12/14/Florida-lethal-injection-takes-34-minutes/UPI-59261166098582/"]at the very least in some cases[/URL], the US's most common method of execution could certainly be considered cruel and unusual torture.
Realistically, I think serving a life sentence, (with possibly the option for euthanasia, as people in the thread previously mentioned) is the most suitable compromise.
Even someone like Dylann Roof should be spared according to FP,just because its 'inhumane', wow you guys really are pushovers.
[QUOTE=Tarver;51655152]Even someone like Dylann Roof should be spared according to FP,just because its 'inhumane', wow you guys really are pushovers.[/QUOTE]
I'd rather have him alive and in anguish than for him to get the easy way out.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51653090]Well it's obviously not the best course of action considering how many European countries don't even have the death penalty and have a much lower crime rate.
Our criminal justice system is shit, and this is just another example of that. We're a society that glorifies violence and revenge and that shit shouldn't seep into our legal system.[/QUOTE]
oh i agree with that, it's just that saying putting him to death makes us no better than him is a little over dramatic.
[QUOTE=Tarver;51655152]Even someone like Dylann Roof should be spared according to FP,just because its 'inhumane', wow you guys really are pushovers.[/QUOTE]
No, because prison
[QUOTE=sYnced;51650984]it's done, get over it. also it's what the victims want[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but I don't think the victims are exactly the most unbiased people to ask.
since when is "what the victims want" the most important thing?
[QUOTE=Blazedol;51655238]oh i agree with that, it's just that saying putting him to death makes us no better than him is a little over dramatic.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I get where you're coming from.
But still, I just don't think it's morally right to put people to death, even in cases like this.
These people belong in prison. The only reason people think they don't is because we put so many low level offenders in our prisons that it just doesn't seem like enough.
I'd rather him live a long time and hopefully eventually realize that what he did was either wrong or not worth throwing his life away for. Sentenced to death, he can probably die thinking he did a good thing like Timothy McVeigh. Killing him is not a punishment, I'd say it's more of a release then anything else. If he spends his entire life in prison, he might realize that these things he cared about so much don't seem as important.
[QUOTE=Tarver;51655152]Even someone like Dylann Roof should be spared according to FP,just because its 'inhumane', wow you guys really are pushovers.[/QUOTE]
This is really a good illustration of how a lot of pro-death people think regarding capital punishment. People who disagree with death sentences are apparently pushovers for not agreeing that any state entity should be able to dictate over an individuals right to exist. It seems to me that if you're even within that realm of rhetoric, it's clear that you are the one letting your emotions steer over common sense. I'm not really arguing for or against the death penalty here, it's just that this "arrr the bad man should fuckin die and everyone who disagrees is a weak pushover"" is so common it's frightening.
[QUOTE=Tobylol;51657133]This is really a good illustration of how a lot of pro-death people think regarding capital punishment. People who disagree with death sentences are apparently pushovers for not agreeing that any state entity should be able to dictate over an individuals right to exist. It seems to me that if you're even within that realm of rhetoric, it's clear that you are the one letting your emotions steer over common sense. I'm not really arguing for or against the death penalty here, it's just that this "arrr the bad man should fuckin die and everyone who disagrees is a weak pushover"" is so common it's frightening.[/QUOTE]
There are valid arguments against the death penalty, but "he's a human bean!" isn't one of them. That is just as silly, emotional and as much of an example of ridiculous black and white thinking as the revenge argument.
[QUOTE=Tobylol;51657133]"arrr the bad man should fuckin die and everyone who disagrees is a weak pushover"" is so common it's frightening.[/QUOTE]
In my experience, there are just as many people going [I]"arrr the man is bad we must make him suffer in a cell forever and not let him escape by death"[/I], and I agree that that mentality is completely harmful.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51657411]There are valid arguments against the death penalty, but "he's a human bean!" isn't one of them. That is just as silly, emotional and an example of ridiculous black and white thinking as the revenge argument.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if I would agree that they are on the same level. "He's a human bean!" is obviously not saying much but encompasses the point pretty well, which is that we as a society have no right to decide whether a human life should be forcefully ended, disregarding our established laws and ethics. Especially in the case of choosing between a life sentence and the death penalty, which bear basically the same results in practice (disregarding the emotional aspect) except that we don't have to kill any more people.
You don't have to be an apologist to consider our right to not get executed by the government to be a fundamental base for a modern society regardless of circumstance.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51657456]In my experience, there are just as many people going [I]"arrr the man is bad we must make him suffer in a cell forever and not let him escape by death"[/I], and I agree that that mentality is completely harmful.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that and also "hehe hope he gets ass raped by a blackie ;)" is so fucking shitty and everyone who thinks like this is a major fuck.
[QUOTE=Tobylol;51657472]I don't know if I would agree that they are on the same level. "He's a human bean!" is obviously not saying much but encompasses the point pretty well, which is that we as a society have no right to decide whether a human life should be forcefully ended, disregarding our established laws and ethics. Especially in the case of choosing between a life sentence and the death penalty, which bear basically the same results in practice (disregarding the emotional aspect) except that we don't have to kill any more people.
You don't have to be an apologist to consider our right to not get executed by the government to be a pretty fundamental base for a modern society, regardless of circumstance.[/QUOTE]
But we already do that in terms of self defence laws, with the military and with the police. There's a reason we have different degrees of murder and man slaughter because it is at the end of the day the motive that defines whether the killing was wrong and how wrong we consider it. To take a moral absolute that ALL killing is bad is just silly, there's very clearly defined times when it isn't.
Yes a lovely perfect universe where nobody was ever killed ever would be nice, however we don't live in that universe so it's pointless to act as though we do.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51657456]In my experience, there are just as many people going [I]"arrr the man is bad we must make him suffer in a cell forever and not let him escape by death"[/I], and I agree that that mentality is completely harmful.[/QUOTE]
"He'll suffer in his cell" is a pretty shitty argument. It still doesn't solve the problem of retributive punishment at all.
My main desires from abolishing the death penalty are the opportunities to learn more about the individuals that commit the crimes (and save some bloody money because death row isn't cheap to run). We might not be able to "fix" them, but we may be able to find out what caused them to become what they are, and perhaps find indicators for future perps.
Along with my previously mentioned point on creating exceptions to laws just to satisfy some lust for revenge. You'll eventually get someone caught up in it that shouldn't have been.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51657491]But we already do that in terms of self defence laws, with the military and with the police. There's a reason we have different degrees of murder and man slaughter because it is at the end of the day the motive that defines whether the killing was wrong and how wrong we consider it. To take a moral absolute that ALL killing is bad is just silly, there's very clearly defined times when it isn't.
Yes a lovely perfect universe where nobody was ever killed ever would be nice, however we don't live in that universe so it's pointless to act as though we do.[/QUOTE]
Could argue that those reasons are a necessity, where as in this case it is not. The fact is that a large majority of the developed world has gotten rid of the death penalty, and is getting on just fine. I agree it's pointless to act as if things are perfect, but shouldn't we strive to be as good as possible.
[QUOTE=Tobylol;51657547]Could argue that those reasons are a necessity, where as in this case it is not. The fact is that a large majority of the developed world has gotten rid of the death penalty, and is getting on just fine. I agree it's pointless to act as if things are perfect, but shouldn't we strive to be as good as possible.[/QUOTE]
Well as I said originally, there are arguments against it, for example not being able to prove 100% that they did it, I just think that someone being biologically human is a terrible argument against it.
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51651084]good sentence.
imagine being so stupid that you think this guy deserves to live.[/QUOTE]
"anyone who disagrees with me is stupid and thats that" ?
[QUOTE=Rich209;51650949]I know some people are going to disagree with him being put to death, but I'm sorry the guy deserves it. He's fucking evil, saying he wasn't sorry and was glad to do it. Given he stated he wasn't insane and decided to defend himself, he essentially was asking to be put to death.[/QUOTE]
Death is too good for him they should have given him a life sentence and put him in with all the black people in prison and let them beat the fucking shit out of him and rape him as well! Also he is most likely a neo nazi as well he said at the trial that he wasn't mentally ill when his lawyer was trying to use the insanity defense. He then went on to say that psychology was bullshit and is a made up Jewish invention so he's obviously a Nazi.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51658453]please be satire, please be satire, please be satire[/QUOTE]
It's not look up the case.
[QUOTE=coldroll5;51661244]It's not look up the case.[/QUOTE]
Wishing rape on someone is creepy even if they're a murderer, he's going to be executed, why say "he should be raped and beat up?"
Plus the very questionable black people part
[QUOTE=coldroll5;51658322]Death is too good for him they should have given him a life sentence and put him in with all the black people in prison and let them beat the fucking shit out of him and rape him as well! Also he is most likely a neo nazi as well he said at the trial that he wasn't mentally ill when his lawyer was trying to use the insanity defense. He then went on to say that psychology was bullshit and is a made up Jewish invention so he's obviously a Nazi.[/QUOTE]
if you send people to prison with the expectation they will be raped or beaten there, you've got a shitty justice system
if you go to prison for say 30 years, that is a sentence of 30 years. it shouldn't also implicitly include getting raped and beaten as well
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51661719]if you send people to prison with the expectation they will be raped or beaten there, you've got a shitty justice system
if you go to prison for say 30 years, that is a sentence of 30 years. it shouldn't also implicitly include getting raped and beaten as well[/QUOTE]
The prison system here in the US is a load of bullshit even without the inmate-on-inmate violence.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;51661612]Wishing rape on someone is creepy even if they're a murderer, he's going to be executed, why say "he should be raped and beat up?"[/QUOTE]
Because killing him let's him get away with what he did. He should suffer in prison.
[editline]12th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51661666]Plus the very questionable black people part[/QUOTE]
Let's see what would happen if he said a certain word to a group of black people in prison.
[editline]12th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51661719]if you send people to prison with the expectation they will be raped or beaten there, you've got a shitty justice system
if you go to prison for say 30 years, that is a sentence of 30 years. it shouldn't also implicitly include getting raped and beaten as well[/QUOTE]
It happens all the time people get arrested for minor drug charges and they get a couple years in prison and then they get raped in north America at least. Meanwhile a pedophile goes out and rapes a bunch of kids and only gets five years in prison. And are usually sheltered away from the other inmates. Your justice system is fucked. Anyway I went a little off topic there anyway the point is killing him would be a colossal waste of money since they did away with the firing squad and the guillotine and only do lethal injections. Which are expensive as fuck and they fuck up the executions alot of the time. Even hanging them would be a better idea. He would deserves everything he would get in prison. Killing him let's him get away with what he did. Even solitary confinement for life would be an except able punishment. I don't know why people on this site have such a big dick for despicable human beings such as roof. Put him in with some black people they'll beat his racist face in.
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