• Egyptian Revolution Was Against Neoliberalism- The Best Opinion Piece I've Seen In A While
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[QUOTE=thisispain;28487745]i'm seriously trying to understand your arguments but none of it makes any sense, it's just loose quotes strung together to form some kind of narrative about capitalism which is totally false because you are utterly butchering the arguments a proper argument for capitalism would be: capitalism is a good model for economic growth because it puts power into the hands of people and no-one else. in other systems price and quality is not controlled by the consumer which often leaves the choices out of their hands. capitalism removes this control and allows all people to produce what they wish and sell it to the people who wish to buy it. this makes sure the proper product that people want is the one that they get, creating an economic growth system and putting power into the consumer.[/QUOTE] No you're assuming that I'm currently trying to justify capitalism from an economic standpoint. What you fail to realize is I'm pointing out capitalism as a moral standard. I argue for capitalism on the basis of individuality with the notion that without either the other cannot properly exist.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487759]You don't believe man is contractual? You somehow think man is and should be more influenced by force than shared interests? You're sounding more like Freud by the second. Everyman is an island implies that his highest and first value should be himself, not absurd at all.[/QUOTE] Every man as an island does not imply that at all. Every man as an island is the metaphor of every man is singular and separate. Not some "me first" concept which I believe is the highest obligation in life anyways. I don't tihnk man "is and should be influend by force than shared interests" I don't even know where the fuck you pulled that out of. I'm not advocating that at all. People who realize there are things that can be done for their own personal gain and for the good of the people will do so, I'm not saying all people are like this, but you imply some sort of misreading of democratic socialism to form your world views, you act like your view of our system is the only right one. Stop it. In a democratic socialist government(This is demonstrated by daily activities with governments) people who do both of those things are rewarded just fine really.
i could fucking quote ayn rand off the top of my head let's see you do that you miserable lolbertarians
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28487766]Not even, he doesn't want any sort of business regulation which would lead to absolute and total fucking of almost everyone. Just because "competition" exists is meaningless. He has not gotten the power of advertising.[/QUOTE] What competition? Every day I'm seeing less and less competition between companies who produce anything other than useless goods. Advancement is slowing down as companies or corporations form Oligopolies and provide equally shitty products and services in all facets. Such is the folley of capitalism, when people realize that the economy and capitalism are merely literary interpretations and not concrete laws, and then come to realize that they have the power to jerk everybody around.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487809] What you fail to realize is I'm pointing out capitalism as a moral standard. [/QUOTE] that's just stupid, it's got nothing to do with capitalism in fact ayn rand would also disagree so *blows raspberry*
[QUOTE=thisispain;28487827]that's just stupid, it's got nothing to do with capitalism in fact ayn rand would also disagree so *blows raspberry*[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.intellectualconservative.com/images/capitalismtheunknownideal.jpg[/img] Fuck you kindly. I'm having a hard time believing you know anything about her work at all.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487809]No you're assuming that I'm currently trying to justify capitalism from an economic standpoint. What you fail to realize is I'm pointing out capitalism as a moral standard. I argue for capitalism on the basis of individuality with the notion that without either the other cannot properly exist.[/QUOTE] An even more ridiculous tennant to hold. While I agree, and I believe most people will agree, "Take care of yourself first" is the most important goal in life, as only your happiness should matter to you, is not exclusive to capitalism. Individuality clearly exists outside of capitalist enviroments, you can't possibly be more naive or elitist than that. I've met, and am good friends with many chinese nationals who are all very much as individual as anyone else i've met, all being as individual as I've ever seen anyone to be, not from Hong Kong either. it's ridiculous how highly you hold yourself.
[QUOTE=thisispain;28487811]i could fucking quote ayn rand off the top of my head let's see you do that you miserable lolbertarians[/QUOTE] If you knew anything about Ayn Rand you would know most libertarians are not objectivists. A lot are influenced and generally led to libertarianism after reading her work but objectivists and libertarians don't get a long too well outside of the economy.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;28487825]What competition? Every day I'm seeing less and less competition between companies who produce anything other than useless goods. Advancement is slowing down as companies or corporations form Oligopolies and provide equally shitty products and services in all facets. Such is the folley of capitalism, when people realize that the economy and capitalism are merely literary interpretations and not concrete laws, and then come to realize that they have the power to jerk everybody around.[/QUOTE] Exactly. When the business owners realize, they can make more money and still control their product, why the fuck wouldn't they just merge with their other biggest competitors and form a monopoly to control product? Just because there's a new guy in town means nothing. it would turn into the same as the drug market is now. The new guy in town is often shafted and beat up by other, more established drug dealers unless, he works for them and eventually out lives them. This is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28487853]it's ridiculous how highly you hold yourself.[/QUOTE] I don't recall ever referring to myself once.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487850][img_thumb]http://www.intellectualconservative.com/images/capitalismtheunknownideal.jpg[/img_thumb] Fuck you kindly. I'm having a hard time believing you know anything about her work at all.[/QUOTE] It's a good thing the title is called "Capitalism: the unknown moral system" and not "Capitalism: The unknown ideal" otherwise you'd look pretty stupid right now. Ideal does not pertain to morality explicitly, it's an idea.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487882]I don't recall ever referring to myself once.[/QUOTE] Because you need to say that when you say things like [quote]What you fail to realize is I'm pointing out capitalism as a moral standard. I argue for capitalism on the basis of individuality with the notion that without either the other cannot properly exist. [/quote] And know that you hold that view and thusly, are morally better than us and you're in a higher standard than us. This is simple shit really. [editline]7th March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;28487797]whatever everyone just ignore my posts though who's the one who studied marxism and capitalism in a college, *points at self*[/QUOTE] Don't you know? Colleges are a liberal institution who would only teach you fallacies!
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487850][img_thumb]http://www.intellectualconservative.com/images/capitalismtheunknownideal.jpg[/img_thumb] Fuck you kindly. I'm having a hard time believing you know anything about her work at all.[/QUOTE] that's a book of essays and i don't think you even fucking read any of them. ayn rand's moral system was about applying objective reasoning and value to moral and ethical standards. it's a rejection of nihilism and subjective value which is basically what marx argued for her entire moral system relies on the idea that a mind should not be forced to do anything. she didn't think that a mixed economy was bad, but she believed they would lead to statism, where the artist and the sculptor (note the usage of russian marxist imagery) would be forced and coerced. that's the whole fucking point behind atlas shrugged. it's not about fucking capitalism. read a bit and use your damn brain instead of just eating whatever shit some person tells you. most fucking objectivists did not even understand or properly follow her ideology, [B]something she herself even said[/B] god it's like i'm the only one who actually reads this shit and everyone else just reads the sparknotes some idiot scrambled together in one night
[QUOTE=thisispain;28487936]that's a book of essays and i don't think you even fucking read any of them. ayn rand's moral system was about applying objective reasoning and value to moral and ethical standards. it's a rejection of nihilism and subjective value which is basically what marx argued for her entire moral system relies on the idea that a mind should not be forced to do anything. she didn't think that a mixed economy was bad, but she believed they would lead to statism, where the artist and the sculptor (note the usage of russian marxist imagery) would be forced and coerced. that's the whole fucking point behind atlas shrugged. it's not about fucking capitalism. read a bit and use your damn brain instead of just eating whatever shit some person tells you. most fucking objectivists did not even understand or properly follow her ideology, [B]something she herself even said[/B] god it's like i'm the only one who actually reads this shit and everyone else just reads the sparknotes some idiot scrambled together in one night[/QUOTE] :respek: This is going to be funny.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487866]If you knew anything about Ayn Rand you would know most libertarians are not objectivists.[/QUOTE] libertarianism and objectivism are totally separate things
[QUOTE=thisispain;28487965]libertarianism and objectivism are totally separate things[/QUOTE] where the hell did you imply they were the same is my question
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;28487889]It's a good thing the title is called "Capitalism: the unknown moral system" and not "Capitalism: The unknown ideal" otherwise you'd look pretty stupid right now. Ideal does not pertain to morality explicitly, it's an idea.[/QUOTE] It's a good thing I've read the book and wasn't implying jack shit about the title. Read the content. Capitalism is the only economic standard that can be properly deemed morality fit for mans life on earth. "If the good, the virtuous, the morally ideal is suffering and self-sacrifice—then, by that standard, capitalism had to be damned as evil. Capitalism does not tell men to suffer, but to pursue enjoyment and achievement, here, on earth—capitalism does not tell men to serve and sacrifice, but to produce and profit—capitalism does not preach passivity, humility, resignation, but independence, self-confidence, self-reliance—and, above all, capitalism does not permit anyone to expect or demand, to give or to take the unearned. In all human relationships—private or public, spiritual or material, social or political or economic or moral—capitalism requires that men be guided by a principle which is the antithesis of altruism: the principle of justice." [editline]8th March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;28487936]that's a book of essays and i don't think you even fucking read any of them. ayn rand's moral system was about applying objective reasoning and value to moral and ethical standards. it's a rejection of nihilism and subjective value which is basically what marx argued for her entire moral system relies on the idea that a mind should not be forced to do anything. she didn't think that a mixed economy was bad, but she believed they would lead to statism, where the artist and the sculptor (note the usage of russian marxist imagery) would be forced and coerced. that's the whole fucking point behind atlas shrugged. it's not about fucking capitalism. read a bit and use your damn brain instead of just eating whatever shit some person tells you. most fucking objectivists did not even understand or properly follow her ideology, [B]something she herself even said[/B] god it's like i'm the only one who actually reads this shit and everyone else just reads the sparknotes some idiot scrambled together in one night[/QUOTE] You've never read god damn jack shit and you fucking know it. She didn't think a mixed economy was bad? Read fucking two lines of her work and you will know how wrong you are. You haven't touched a page of any of her works and we both know it or you lack the comprehension to understand it.
the whole fucking point behind objectivism is in the title. OBJECTIVISM! the idea is that reality is independent from consciousness, and that it is immoral to stop people from not allowing themselves to do what ever they wish to express. this isn't about capitalism, an economic system. this is a fucking existential philosophy. you are twisting things that don't work together which is why it's such a headfuck trying to figure out what you are on about if you wanna have a proper discussion about objectivist philosophy then have a proper discussion, not a shit flinging contest based on premises you do not understand
[QUOTE=thisispain;28487936]she didn't think that a mixed economy was bad[/QUOTE] "When I say “capitalism,” I mean a full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism—with a separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church." [editline]8th March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;28487994]the whole fucking point behind objectivism is in the title. OBJECTIVISM! the idea is that reality is independent from consciousness, and that it is immoral to stop people from not allowing themselves to do what ever they wish to express. this isn't about capitalism, an economic system. this is a fucking existential philosophy. you are twisting things that don't work together which is why it's such a headfuck trying to figure out what you are on about if you wanna have a proper discussion about objectivist philosophy then have a proper discussion, not a shit flinging contest based on premises you do not understand[/QUOTE] Capitalism is the only economic standard in line with her morality. You should really work on your reading comprehension.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487977]It's a good thing I've read the book and wasn't implying jack shit about the title. Read the content. Capitalism is the only economic standard that can be properly deemed morality fit for mans life on earth. "If the good, the virtuous, the morally ideal is suffering and self-sacrifice—then, by that standard, capitalism had to be damned as evil. Capitalism does not tell men to suffer, but to pursue enjoyment and achievement, here, on earth—capitalism does not tell men to serve and sacrifice, but to produce and profit—capitalism does not preach passivity, humility, resignation, but independence, self-confidence, self-reliance—and, above all, capitalism does not permit anyone to expect or demand, to give or to take the unearned. In all human relationships—private or public, spiritual or material, social or political or economic or moral—capitalism requires that men be guided by a principle which is the antithesis of altruism: the principle of justice."[/QUOTE] That could not be any more padded or Romanticized. Is that seriously in the book? What a bunch of drivel. How fucking patronizing, I'd actually feel insulted after reading that book. I prefer not to read objectivist writings to form my opinions, the way I see objectivism is just another way to reward the power hungry and punish people who live modest lives. It doesn't matter how you chock it up in a book.
[QUOTE=thisispain;28487936]that's the whole fucking point behind atlas shrugged. it's not about fucking capitalism. read a bit and use your damn brain instead of just eating whatever shit some person tells you. most fucking objectivists did not even understand or properly follow her ideology, [B]something she herself even said[/B][/QUOTE] The Fountainhead is closer to what you just described. Atlas Shrugged is very much about the free productive efforts unleashed by capitalism. You've read neither. [editline]8th March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;28487936]it's a rejection of nihilism and subjective value which is basically what marx argued for her entire moral system relies on the idea that a mind should not be forced to do anything.[/QUOTE] There is much more to it than that but if you want to be very general you have a few points of what she is against.
where do you even get the bloody nerve to call me out on my reading comprehension then not even read the whole sentence it's obvious you haven't even read her works because you are fucking pulling out quotes at the speed of light which means you are reading some dude's interpretation and copy-pasting it at your own whim tell me strider*, why did she think art was a moral obligation? i'm not even interested in your reply so i'll just leave with a quote: "enlightenment is not fully understanding one's text, enlightenment is fully understanding all text"
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487977]It's a good thing I've read the book and wasn't implying jack shit about the title. Read the content. Capitalism is the only economic standard that can be properly deemed morality fit for mans life on earth. "If the good, the virtuous, the morally ideal is suffering and self-sacrifice—then, by that standard, capitalism had to be damned as evil. Capitalism does not tell men to suffer, but to pursue enjoyment and achievement, here, on earth—capitalism does not tell men to serve and sacrifice, but to produce and profit—capitalism does not preach passivity, humility, resignation, but independence, self-confidence, self-reliance—and, above all, capitalism does not permit anyone to expect or demand, to give or to take the unearned. In all human relationships—private or public, spiritual or material, social or political or economic or moral—capitalism requires that men be guided by a principle which is the antithesis of altruism: the principle of justice." [editline]8th March 2011[/editline] You've never read god damn jack shit and you fucking know it. She didn't think a mixed economy was bad? Read fucking two lines of her work and you will know how wrong you are. You haven't touched a page of any of her works and we both know it or you lack the comprehension to understand it.[/QUOTE] I have unfortunately exposed my self to Ayn Rand's works, and I must say he is 100% correct. [editline]8th March 2011[/editline] Strider, you should really stop being an arrogant sod.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28487977] you lack the comprehension to understand it.[/QUOTE] Coming from someone who reads what they want to read out of every single sentence we say, that's funny.
[QUOTE=thisispain;28487936]that's the whole fucking point behind atlas shrugged. it's not about fucking capitalism.[/QUOTE] Hrmm let's take a fucking look at the Ayn Rand Institutes website on Atlas Shrugged an organization which has spent decades discussing and interpreting her work. [url]http://atlasshrugged.com/the-philosophy/a-new-moral-code/the-morality-of-business/[/url] You are so wrong it isn't even funny. Capitalism is such an integral part of the novel that I know you either have not read the novel or are mentally incapable of comprehending it.
[QUOTE=The LocalFlavor;28488097]I have unfortunately exposed my self to Ayn Rand's works, and I must say he is 100% correct. [editline]8th March 2011[/editline] Strider, you should really stop being an arrogant sod.[/QUOTE] I've read Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead, I've yet to have the stomach to read her essays. What pain's saying is more true than what strider is saying. [editline]7th March 2011[/editline] The first quote on that website is basically what anyone who is brainwashed says to themselves, it's self confirmation to keep yourself from any sort of self doubt or ability to be criticized. It makes you the highest judge in the land and that's hilarious.
[QUOTE=thisispain;28488087]tell me strider*, why did she think art was a moral obligation?[/QUOTE] Art as a moral obligation for everyone? She didn't you ignorant twat. Where in the hell do you pull this shit out of your ass?
[QUOTE=Strider*;28488147]Art as a moral obligation for everyone? She didn't you ignorant twat. Where in the hell do you pull this shit out of your ass?[/QUOTE] Art to her was Hank Rearden making steel, art is anything one does well to her, so yes, she fucking did, you ignorant twat.
Fellow scholar of Ayn Rand popping in. It is extremely hard to believe that any of you have read Atlas Shrugged bar (maybe) Strider.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28488110]Hrmm let's take a fucking look at the Ayn Rand Institutes [/QUOTE] who gives a shit read the text and make up your own damn mind, who cares what a bunch of stuck up gits at some institute have to say like i care what the fucking NME has to say about bjork because they spent decades discussing and interpreting her work no that's bullshit how hilarious that you should go on and on about individualism then just instantly jump and say "these lads say it and they are called so and so that makes them more correct" parrots can't be individuals [editline]7th March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Strider*;28488147]Art as a moral obligation for everyone? [/QUOTE] yeah fyi the fountainhead was about art
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