German Pensioner hiding a full, intact Panther Tank, Torpedo and Flak 88 in his basement uncovered
79 replies, posted
[QUOTE=teh pirate;48113795]Surely they won't cut it up? There aren't many left, and this one almost has to be a survivor, not a restoration...
e: Um, why did they even raid his house? What right do they have to seize this thing anyway? If it's been deactivated it's fully legal for him to own it, even in Germany. They searched his home earlier for "stolen Nazi art" which I assume they didn't find, but they decided to come back for the Panther???[/QUOTE]
I read the german article - apparently he started putting up nazi era decorations in his garden.
Der Heikendorfer soll in seinen Garten auch Kunst aus der NS-Zeit gestellt haben. In diesem Zusammenhang war er im Zuge von Ermittlungen nach wieder aufgetauchter Nazi-Kunst auch ins Visier der Beamten geraten. Es ging um eine Statue mit dem Titel „Die Wehrmacht“ von Arno Breker, die im Garten des Mannes steht. „Das ist aber eine Kopie“, sagte Rechtsanwalt Gramsch.
Apparently he also contacted a newspaper about having a large collection.
It's entirely possible these things are being towed away to be looked over by experts to see if they are indeed inactive or not.
I read the German article, too. It seems like he put up a copy of a period statue honoring Wehrmacht soldiers, which isn't illegal if there are no illegal symbols on display - and there aren't. Even if there were that doesn't (or shouldn't) authorize them to seize the rest of his legal collection.
As for towing them away to be looked at by experts, it'd be a lot less trouble for everyone to bring the experts to the equipment. It's not like he's going to go on a killing spree in the 70 year old Panther or shoot down some planes with the Flak 88. Now, even if it is legal (and it probably is since the effort was made to remove banned symbols from its paintwork), irreplaceable road wheels have been damaged by dragging and there's no telling whether they actually put the transmission in neutral before pulling it out, so who knows what happened to the gearbox?
It'd be cool if he could keep it if the gun mechanism no longer works.
Fuck, I'd have a tank and mod the turret into a potato cannon. Fire out water bombs and confetti and shit.
They could have verified if it was inactive or not on his own property, they didn't have to take the thing away from the old man.
What's he gonna do, Barbarossa V2?
[QUOTE=PsiSoldier;48113809]Thick steel tracks don't [I]just[/I] fall apart, especially when they've spent most of their life protected from harsh weather. There has to be some sort of story behind it.[/QUOTE]
Well they do. German tanks were made to be serviced every few hundred miles, so tracks would literally just lose tension and fall apart after a while. Considering there hasn't been a panther service station active for about 70 or so years, it's safe to say once the tracks on that thing broke, they stayed broke.
And the award for largest basement ever goes to...
That 88 looks seriously bad ass.
The Nazi warmachine was terrifying but damn they had some amazing style when it came to the looks of the weapons.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48114056]They could have verified if it was inactive or not on his own property, they didn't have to take the thing away from the old man.
What's he gonna do, Barbarossa V2?[/QUOTE]
Germany has some pretty strict weapons laws, I don't know them by heart but they probably don't want citizens owning mounted AAA cannons.
And to the people complaining about them hauling the tank off; The tank doesn't just have a 75mm cannon in it, it's also got 2 MG-34 HMG's, racks for grenades, racks for demolition charges to completely destroy the tank, and storage room for a lot of ammunition. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that they want to disassemble it to make sure theres no live rounds, cannon shells or bullets or otherwise, floating around in the thing. They'll also want to take the MG-34's out and properly deactivate the main gun.
The guys who pulled it out were probably engineers or tankers themselves, considering they used a knocked out vehicle hauler to pull the thing out, so they knew to put it in neutral before they started hauling it out lmfao. Imagine trying to pull a VW beetle with it in park, how fucking hard do you think it would be to haul a 50 ton tank out of a basement with it still in gear? jfc quit overreacting.
It doesn't make sense to haul it off to check if it's deactivated. They could have easily done it on site. It's pretty obvious if the '34s are deactivated so I don't know how they come into it. If the stuff's legal, it's legal. This was done to hassle him.
The Panther like all German tanks can be pulled while in gear for the case that the transmission is damaged and can't be shifted, but it's hard on the system. They didn't make any effort to protect the road wheels so I wouldn't expect them to be that gentle with the rest of it.
e: though I guess since the tracks weren't on it the drivetrain wasn't being engaged :v:
Its gonna be crushed. Whether its legal or not, they will crush it. Germany has done to the nazi flag/symbols as America is doing to the confederate stuff.
[QUOTE=Tmaxx;48114524]Its gonna be crushed. Whether its legal or not, they will crush it. Germany has done to the nazi flag/symbols as America is doing to the confederate stuff.[/QUOTE]
No, if it's legal it won't get dismanteled, but it most likely isnt legal either way
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;48114145]jfc quit overreacting.[/QUOTE]
You're legitimizing taking someones property who was storing it in a manner that rendered it safe to the public and you say the people questioning why they took it instead of just inspecting and deactivating it if necessary onsite as "overreacting"?
[QUOTE=teh pirate;48114202]It doesn't make sense to haul it off to check if it's deactivated. They could have easily done it on site. It's pretty obvious if the '34s are deactivated so I don't know how they come into it. If the stuff's legal, it's legal. This was done to hassle him.
The Panther like all German tanks can be pulled while in gear for the case that the transmission is damaged and can't be shifted, but it's hard on the system. They didn't make any effort to protect the road wheels so I wouldn't expect them to be that gentle with the rest of it.
e: though I guess since the tracks weren't on it the drivetrain wasn't being engaged :v:[/QUOTE]
Like I just said, the thing has storage for literal tons of munitions and actually had a set of demolition charges built into the turret to blow the thing up in case it was about to be captured or scuttled. And like I just said, they probably want to pull it apart to make sure theres no stray ammunition lying around in the thing.
[editline]3rd July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48114645]You're legitimizing taking someones property who was storing it in a manner that rendered it safe to the public and you say the people questioning why they took it instead of just inspecting and deactivating it if necessary onsite as "overreacting"?[/QUOTE]
Dood me storing hand grenades in my gunsafe makes it safe to the general public, but if I don't have tax stamps on them then the ATF would come beat my door down if they knew I had them. Just because an internet armchair general deems them "safe" without even fucking looking at them in detail, that doesn't mean their safe. They're military vehicles and Germany is very restrictive on people owning weapons. Like I said in the post above and the one before that, they probably want to dismantle it to make sure it's safe, considering it's been sitting in a basement with an AA gun for god knows how long.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;48114145]Germany has some pretty strict weapons laws, I don't know them by heart but they probably don't want citizens owning mounted AAA cannons.
And to the people complaining about them hauling the tank off; The tank doesn't just have a 75mm cannon in it, it's also got 2 MG-34 HMG's, racks for grenades, [B]racks for demolition charges to completely destroy the tank[/B], and storage room for a lot of ammunition. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that they want to disassemble it to make sure theres no live rounds, cannon shells or bullets or otherwise, floating around in the thing. They'll also want to take the MG-34's out and properly deactivate the main gun.
The guys who pulled it out were probably engineers or tankers themselves, considering they used a knocked out vehicle hauler to pull the thing out, so they knew to put it in neutral before they started hauling it out lmfao. Imagine trying to pull a VW beetle with it in park, how fucking hard do you think it would be to haul a 50 ton tank out of a basement with it still in gear? jfc quit overreacting.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;48114687]Like I just said, the thing has storage for literal tons of munitions and actually had a set of demolition charges [B]built into the turret to blow[/B] the thing up in case it was about to be captured or scuttled. And like I just said, they probably want to pull it apart to make sure theres no stray ammunition lying around in the thing.
[/QUOTE]
When you do this this confuses people, I thought it was simple packs on the sides of the tank that could be taken off, I didn't know this until your second post.
It's also the point that the person who owns them is 78, what real danger is there having a war machine if it's rendered inactive of firing weaponry? I just want you to know your grenade example is also fucking stupid because I'm not advocating keeping explosives.
If I'm also an internet armchair general just because I can see the money piling up to transport this thing away from the mans house, with a German Army crew, to where it'll be deactivated, dismantled to search for remnant ammo, reassembled, and then transported back to the man if it's deemed legal, alongside whatever registration or whatever the man may need to do, when the same could have been done by dismantling the parts that have the highest chances of exploding, like the aforementioned explosive charges, while keeping the main bodies intact at his home with crews looking through it for ammo, then reattaching them back while also allowing the man to do any paper work needed to keep the things. You don't have to get an army crew to move a whole tank and AA gun around, you get the same done for less, and the same result is achieved. They really, in my opinion, just moved the damned things to make a point.
I'm willing to bet the guy wanted to get them out of his basement after all this time though
All is demilitarised, he should get to keep his little toys, also he had a V1 which was uncomplete tho.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;48114070]Well they do. German tanks were made to be serviced every few hundred miles, so tracks would literally just lose tension and fall apart after a while. Considering there hasn't been a panther service station active for about 70 or so years, it's safe to say once the tracks on that thing broke, they stayed broke.[/QUOTE]
Tracks just spontaneously fall apart on their own because there's a bit of slack eh? What.
Anyway, pretty sure it's safe to assume someone who kept a Panther good enough condition to be able to [i]drive it around town[/i] knows how to adjust the idler wheel.
That so needs to be taken to the War and Peace revival show this year.
Pretty sure WW2 Panthers, especially in that condition are really fucking rare. They better not destroy it.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;48115705]Pretty sure WW2 Panthers, especially in that condition are really fucking rare. They better not destroy it.[/QUOTE]
most german tanks of that time are really fucking rare
[QUOTE=cr2142;48113583]Driving around in that thing in the snow? What a fucking badass[/QUOTE]
Technically, as long as all the weapons systems are you know like.. disabled(?) it's perfectly legal to own a tank, not sure if its road legal.
I want an APC one day when I get old, so if I ever become a granny I can drive around, picking up family members even in snow storm so that everyone can come and celebrate christmas.
Also so I can mount a shovel on it and shovel snow like a badass.
And those kids wont get a day off when they cant get to school due to snow, I'll drive those kids to school in my APC, every day. They will be known as badasses amongst their fellow pupils.
What an awesome future.
[editline]4th July 2015[/editline]
And if I get rich enough, I will be a literal helicopter parent, but not shit. They will be flown to their parties in my helicopter.
Wait, maybe I should be a zeppelin parent instead.
[QUOTE=Tmaxx;48114524]Its gonna be crushed. Whether its legal or not, they will crush it. Germany has done to the nazi flag/symbols as America is doing to the confederate stuff.[/QUOTE]
Did you even read the article? As far as the article goes there doesn't seem to be any Nazi symbolism on it at all. They're not going to destroy it.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;48113653]I can just imagine him, outside Lidl, having to light a bonfire beneath it to warm up the engine and diesel.[/QUOTE]
Actually almost all german vehicles were gasoline, gasoline does not have problems with cold starting because petrol engines use spark for ignition instead of compression.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48115925]Did you even read the article? As far as the article goes there doesn't seem to be any Nazi symbolism on it at all. They're not going to destroy it.[/QUOTE]
I think when you consider the historical significance of that tank it wouldnt matter if there was it'd just get a new coat of paint. Anyone ordering something that rare to be destroyed would be committing political suicide to alot of people.
[QUOTE=PsiSoldier;48115496]Tracks just spontaneously fall apart on their own because there's a bit of slack eh? What.
Anyway, pretty sure it's safe to assume someone who kept a Panther good enough condition to be able to [i]drive it around town[/i] knows how to adjust the idler wheel.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, no. German tanks had much pickier running gear that was a lot harder to maintain than russian stuff, but the tracks didn't fall apart instantly. They just had to be properly tensioned and adjusted, whereas russian tracks just sorta flopped around and didn't need precise maintenance.
Realllly hope this ends up in a museum, panthers are stupendously rare and in this condition is unheard of. Most rolling around now are reconstructions and amalgamations of bits and pieces of several scrapped panthers
This is in my town and everyone and his grandmother knew he had it, taking it away is so ridiculous.
[editline]3rd July 2015[/editline]
Also it's demilitarised, the last time he shot it was in the 60s and he shot into the open ocean during a public fest, it was a spectacle.
[editline]3rd July 2015[/editline]
Also the snow catastrophe quote is wrong, he used it to bring doctors to patients back then
[editline]3rd July 2015[/editline]
But frankly the dude also collects Nazi stuff. He is said to posses the table from Göbbels bureau and several items from Hitlers bunker, at least that's what the locals say.
Where's that clip from Hot Fuzz with the underwater mine? It fits this scenario perfectly.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48116270]But frankly the dude also collects Nazi stuff. He is said to posses the table from Göbbels bureau and several items from Hitlers bunker, at least that's what the locals say.[/QUOTE]
So what if he does? Honestly, the way Germany treats its own history is alarming to me. I can understand a ban on new-made items of Nazi theme, but destroying bits of that very real history that have survived up to this point -- I don't understand what anyone gains from that.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48116270]
But frankly the dude also collects Nazi stuff. He is said to posses the table from Göbbels bureau and several items from Hitlers bunker, at least that's what the locals say.[/QUOTE]
Damn, I am jealous. I would pay to see that collection.
Holy fuck i hope they don't destroy it,but what i really wanna know how he managed to
A) Get hold of it in the first place.
B) Keep it from being taken away back in 45-6, if he had it back then.
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;48116604]Holy fuck i hope they don't destroy it,but what i really wanna know how he managed to
A) Get hold of it in the first place.
B) Keep it from being taken away back in 45-6, if he had it back then.[/QUOTE]
Considering he would have been 8 or 9 back then, he must have picked it up in the late 50s or sometime in the 60s, unless a family member got it first.
This thing really needs to be preserved though. Along with the 88. There just aren't many of these things left in the world, and WW2 tanks are amazing vehicles.
It'd be a shame to scrap it. This thing should be in a museum, or driven around as a personal vehicle, because who doesn't want to go to the store in a tank?
As long as it's fitted with rubber tracks, tanks are street legal if they can meet speed limits (and of course armor and gun deactivation)
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