UK EU referendum: 'Yes' will mean stay in, 'No' will mean leave
104 replies, posted
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47812121]As someone who vaguely plans to move to the UK in the next few years, I really hope they don't mess this up.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
Actually, what's going to happen to EU citizens living in the UK if the country leaves the EU? Will they be granted full citizenship?[/QUOTE]
Very low actual chance of leaving since the majority of the population basically thinks better in than out and most of the government wants to stay in.
If the UK leaves the EU, I'm sure we'd be willing to trade you Texas.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47812153]No, if you'd actually LOOKED at the study, the have chosen to report on the worst case scenario, so I think you go and need to have a little read.
And also, I don't even know what point you're making in your second sentence. Left-wingers typically want to stay in, and The Guardian is left wing, so of course that'll affect the outcome.[/QUOTE]
Worst case scenario /= impossible scenario.
And I was pointing out that saying the Guardian is left-wing is a non sequitur considering a whole wide spectrum of politically-affiliated people want to stay in.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47812153]No, if you'd actually LOOKED at the study, they have chosen to report on the worst case scenario, so I think you go and need to have a little read.
And also, I don't even know what point you're making in your second sentence. Left-wingers typically want to stay in, and The Guardian is left wing, so of course that'll affect the outcome.[/QUOTE]
if you looked at the study you'd see that they didn't take the "worst case" scenario but the "most likely " scenario and added ll others in too
[url]https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/Projekte/30_Global_Economic_Dynamics/Zusatzpapier-en-Brexit.pdf[/url]
[QUOTE=Antdawg;47812157]Saying the EU undermines democracy is like saying the federal Australian government undermines democracy, the federal US government undermines democracy or the confederated Canadian government undermines democracy.[/QUOTE]
This is almost offensive. European history has nothing in common with the American, Australian and Canadian's one.
[QUOTE=Killuah;47812160]if it was warped it would be even easier to tackle it but ok.
of course a study would include worst case, and I'm sure there are best case studies too.
your "biased source" even cknowledges that there is many different views on the matter in that very article.
3 clicks but you went all "source is biased will not argue" which frankly looks like there is no argument behind the usual barroom cliché[/QUOTE]
The [B]study [/B]is not biased, the [B]source [/B]is. The source is the article by The Guardian. The study is fair, but The Guardian have picked what they wish to present to support their own bias.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47812188]The [B]study [/B]is not biased, the [B]source [/B]is. The source is the article by The Guardian. The study is fair, but The Guardian have picked what they wish to present to support their own bias.[/QUOTE]
Great, just as you chose to focus on the website instead of the study to support your own bias.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;47812188]The [B]study [/B]is not biased, the [B]source [/B]is. The source is the article by The Guardian. The study is fair, but The Guardian have picked what they wish to present to support their own bias.[/QUOTE]
ok then lets discuss the study not the medium that sources the study
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812185]This is almost offensive. European history has nothing in common with the American, Australian and Canadian's one.[/QUOTE]
You missed the point. Having a higher, centralised level of government isn't necessarily undemocratic.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47812191]Great, just as you chose to focus on the website instead of the study to support your own bias.[/QUOTE]
And by bias is what exactly? I've stated no preference of in or out. You're making assumptions. I'm criticisng how The Guardian have manipulated the study to support their own bias, which is evident and I do not need to be in support of in or out to make that judgement.
The problem with the European Union as I see it is that it's grown too fast and over too many countries, but most importantly too fast. It's supposed to help every nation in the Union but as of now it just sort of drags everyone down while the countries in the worst situation are barely latching onto its back trying to keep afloat.
I don't blame the UK for trying to leave considering the whole thing has been a dirty mess thus far. I think it needs a large rework that would go through an extensive expulsion of a large portion of the members (looking at you Greece).
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;47812213]The problem with the European Union as I see it is that it's grown too fast and over too many countries, but most importantly too fast. It's supposed to help every nation in the Union but as of now it just sort of drags everyone down while the countries in the worst situation are barely latching onto its back trying to keep afloat.
I don't blame the UK for trying to leave considering the whole thing has been a dirty mess thus far. I think it needs a large rework that would go through an extensive expulsion of a large portion of the members (looking at you Greece).[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure it doesn't drag down the more recent, less wealthy additions to it.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;47812157]Saying the EU undermines democracy is like saying the federal Australian government undermines democracy, the federal US government undermines democracy or the confederated Canadian government undermines democracy.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, its basically the same thing.
[QUOTE=.Lain;47812020]source[/QUOTE]
What do you mean? You basically have one body making decisions for most of Europe on social and economic issues, sometimes in opposition to what some countries would usually support, for example on immigration a migrant quota for every nation was proposed.
If you want a federal Europe thats fine but at least acknowledge that it has its positives and negatives. Entire countries will find themselves having policy on issues that aren't supported by the population due to the beliefs of people in other countries.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;47812213]The problem with the European Union as I see it is that it's grown too fast and over too many countries, but most importantly too fast. It's supposed to help every nation in the Union but as of now it just sort of drags everyone down while the countries in the worst situation are barely latching onto its back trying to keep afloat.
I don't blame the UK for trying to leave considering the whole thing has been a dirty mess thus far. I think it needs a large rework that would go through an extensive expulsion of a large portion of the members (looking at you Greece).[/QUOTE]
what? where does it drag everyone down? it made trading easier, I can take my MSc and easily apply for a Doctors degree in so many countries with nothing but my identity, it buffered the whole EU from the stupid financial crap the US caused in 08, this especially benefited the UK as one of the biggest financial service centres by the way, it caused us to discuss immigrants as a problem of Europe, not just Italy, Greece and Malta , the list goes on and on and on...
[QUOTE=Antdawg;47812199]You missed the point. Having a higher, centralised level of government isn't necessarily undemocratic.[/QUOTE]
It is when the federal government is built on top of already existing democratic countries. Said countries having different cultures and no sense of belonging to any "superior institution".
Ask a Californian to describe himself, he'll probably say he's an American. Ask the same question to a German, Englishman, Spaniard, French or an Italian, there may be like 5% of them even mentionning the fact they're european.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;47812213]The problem with the European Union as I see it is that it's grown too fast and over too many countries, but most importantly too fast. It's supposed to help every nation in the Union but as of now it just sort of drags everyone down while the countries in the worst situation are barely latching onto its back trying to keep afloat.
I don't blame the UK for trying to leave considering the whole thing has been a dirty mess thus far. I think it needs a large rework that would go through an extensive expulsion of a large portion of the members (looking at you Greece).[/QUOTE]
I never thought I'd see the day I would actually agree with one of your statement.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;47811982]Cameron doesn't want to leave, he just wants everyone to vote to stay in and be done with the question for 50 years. Which I understand because everybody is getting tired of the UK's "we want in but without the drawbacks everyone suffers to make the system workable in the first place" rhetoric.
Like, I've gotten beyond caring. Just pissoff with your human right abuses and banking overlords. The sensible Brits can move to the continent (because they're in the EU.)[/QUOTE]
Not taking a side on this issue but what human rights abuses?
the European Court of Human Rights repeatedly stepped in while we tried to remove Abu-Qatada from the UK and back to Jordan.
From what I recall we ignored it and did a treaty with Jordan to promise he wouldn't be subject to Torture and sent him on his way.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;47812246]Yeah, its basically the same thing.
What do you mean? You basically have one body making decisions for most of Europe on social and economic issues, sometimes in opposition to what some countries would usually support, for example on immigration a migrant quota for every nation was proposed.
If you want a federal Europe thats fine but at least acknowledge that it has its positives and negatives. Entire countries will find themselves taking actions that the population doesn't support at all due to the beliefs of people in other countries.[/QUOTE]
that's how it is in every government that isn't totalitarian down to city councils or grannies knitting group
[QUOTE=Killuah;47812274]that's how it is in every government that isn't totalitarian down to city councils or grannies knitting group[/QUOTE]
Except aside from the European parliament, most of the meaningful decisions are taken by non-elected institutions. Which makes it kind of not democratic in my books.
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812259]It is when the federal government is built on top of already existing democratic countries. Said countries having different cultures and no sense of belonging to any "superior institution".
Ask a Californian to describe himself, he'll probably say he's an American. Ask the same question to a German, Englishman, Spaniard, French or an Italian, there may be like 5% of them even mentionning the fact they're european.
[/QUOTE]
This is a barroom argument..
Ask a New Mexico citizen 30 years after joining the US.
Who is asked? Many people under 30 DO identify as Europeans.
Also it leaves out that [B]"Forty-six percent of all those interviewed felt their "nationality plus European""[/B] so together with the 5% that go European only that makes 51% grossing all sampled people and probably A LOT LOT LOT more within the group of people that will not need to wear diapers within the next 30 or so years.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812282]Except aside from the European parliament, most of the meaningful decisions are taken by non-elected institutions. Which makes it kind of not democratic in my books.[/QUOTE]
What decisions? The EU parliament has to vote on laws just like most governments in the EU do. None of the EU governments are a true Democracy anyway so the argument doesn't really make sense in that "EU is not democratic enough lets stay countries" hint I feel coming here.
Saying that everyone needs more democracy is ok in my books though.
[QUOTE=Killuah;47812313]This is a barroom argument..
Ask a New Mexico citizen 30 years after joining the US.
Who is asked? Many people under 30 DO identify as Europeans.
Also it leaves out that [B]"Forty-six percent of all those interviewed felt their "nationality plus European""[/B] so together with the 5% that go European only that makes 51% grossing all sampled people and probably A LOT LOT LOT more within the group of people that will not need to wear diapers withing the next 30 or so years.[/QUOTE]
Ask directly "who wants to have a federal government on top of our government", not even the far-leftists would say yes. Do not mistake "I feel German plus European" and "I feel European".
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812333]Ask directly "who wants to have a federal government on top of our government", not even the far-leftists would say yes. Do not mistake "I feel German plus European" and "I feel European".[/QUOTE]
So now that I had a look into that stupid 5% argument and debunked it as demagogic bullshit leaving out most stuff of the study you want to change the view on opinions that you brought to the table yourself to a different question?
Nice.
Not to mention that it's a very very loaded, suggestive question and that's not how you get studies.
ok.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812185]This is almost offensive. European history has nothing in common with the American, Australian and Canadian's one.[/QUOTE]
Also this is a very naive and wrong thing to say.
The EU does overall more good than bad for its members and citizens.
Bans on dangerous chemicals, free trade, free travel and the ability to live/work/study anywhere are just a few examples.
It's better to stay in and have your say in the decision-making process rather than leaving.
[QUOTE=Killuah;47812313]What decisions? The EU parliament has to vote on laws just like most governments in the EU do. None of the EU governments are a true Democracy anyway so the argument doesn't really make sense in that "EU is not democratic enough lets stay countries" hint I feel coming here.
Saying that everyone needs more democracy is ok in my books though.[/QUOTE]
The European Council, the Council, the EC, the ECB and so on. Besides, even if we managed reform that, it still wouldn't be fair as countries don't have the same goals, culture and needs. Some legislations suiting France just fine might not work at all on an eastern country and vice versa.
I'm getting your "we need to get rid of countries and have a federal EU" hint. Let's agree to disagree on that. But I get that, as a German, the current state of the EU is perfect for your country.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Killuah;47812350]So now that I had a look into that stupid 5% argument and debunked it as demagogic bullshit leaving out most stuff of the study you want to change the view on opinions that you brought to the table yourself to a different question?
Nice.
Not to mention that it's a very very loaded, suggestive question and that's not how you get studies.
ok.[/QUOTE]
You haven't debunked shit there. You're advocating a federal Europe (leaving countries behind) and using a study pointing out 46% of interviewed felt they were part of their country and european. Where's the logic behind that.
[QUOTE=Killuah;47812350]Also this is a very naive and wrong thing to say.[/QUOTE]
Breaking news : countries don't share the same history and approach on how to run their buisness. How naive and wrong that statement is right.
[QUOTE=Killuah;47812274]that's how it is in every government that isn't totalitarian down to city councils or grannies knitting group[/QUOTE]
With federation smaller communities will be dominated and forced to follow policy they don't agree with. Thats quite undemocratic. Whether or not thats acceptable is up to the Europeans.
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812259]It is when the federal government is built on top of already existing democratic countries. Said countries having different cultures and no sense of belonging to any "superior institution".[/QUOTE]
To be fair, the American identity didn't exactly exist when the country was first founded. However with the US the differences are less extreme. Sure you have the extremes of Mississippi and New York but I would say that the differences between the nations of France and Bulgaria make federation far too problematic.
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812371]The European Council, the Council, the EC, the ECB and so on. Besides, even if we managed reform that, it still wouldn't be fair as countries don't have the same goals, culture and needs. Some legislations suiting France just fine might not work at all on an eastern country and vice versa.
I'm getting your "we need to get rid of countries and have a federal EU" hint. Let's agree to disagree on that. But I get that, as a German, the current state of the EU is perfect for your country.[/QUOTE]
what has being German to do with that?
also all of the institutions you mentioned are made up of the members of the EU, the ECB particularly.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812371]
You haven't debunked shit there. You're advocating a federal Europe (leaving countries behind) and using a study pointing out 46% of interviewed felt they were part of their country and european. Where's the logic behind that.
[/QUOTE]
it was about the shitty "only 5% identify as European" argument in case you didn't get that and the point is that in fact 51% identify as European, on 5% identify as European Only.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;47812399]With federation smaller communities will be dominated and forced to follow policy they don't agree with. Thats quite undemocratic. Whether or not thats acceptable is up to the Europeans.
[/QUOTE]
democracy is the dictatorship of the majority, no argument here. it's still the most preferable waycompared to the alternatives we've been tryin in the last 200 years
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812371]
Breaking news : countries don't share the same history and approach on how to run their buisness. How naive and wrong that statement is right.[/QUOTE]
but you said "history"
and it was not about sharing the same history, it was about "having nothing in common" and that is objectively wrong.
Global history is interwoven as shit on ALL levels.
And it would be nice if you stopped that "breaking news" bullshit, it sounds a bit condescending.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
Oh.
I just checked what your general stance on stuff is. All right.
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1451630&p=47172437&highlight=#post47172437[/url]
See ya. I'll happily discuss with anyone else who feels like picking up his opinions.
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812333]Ask directly "who wants to have a federal government on top of our government", not even the far-leftists would say yes. Do not mistake "I feel German plus European" and "I feel European".[/QUOTE]
And you might get a different result if you asked people whether they wanted all of the [I]effects[/I] this government has.
(Besides, I would describe myself as a European first, and that position is becoming more popular among our generation.)
[QUOTE=headshotter;47812371]The European Council, the Council, the EC, the ECB and so on. Besides, even if we managed reform that, it still wouldn't be fair as countries don't have the same goals, culture and needs. Some legislations suiting France just fine might not work at all on an eastern country and vice versa.
I'm getting your "we need to get rid of countries and have a federal EU" hint. Let's agree to disagree on that. But I get that, as a German, the current state of the EU is perfect for your country.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of Germans who want to leave the EU because Germany, having one of the strongest economies in it, also pays the most subsidies. Did you forget about Greece?
No, the reason we support the EU (or a federal Europe, even) is that it stands to make policies that mutually benefit every member of it but cannot work if any country can just decide to not follow them, as well as policies that do harm some countries but benefit everyone on average, because the nationalist way of only caring about people who happen to live in the same country as you is a pretty selfish way of thinking.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
Frankly I'd like to extend this to the whole world but I know that ain't gonna happen.
[QUOTE=orgornot;47812366]The EU does overall more good than bad for its members and citizens.
Bans on dangerous chemicals, free trade, free travel and the ability to live/work/study anywhere are just a few examples.
It's better to stay in and have your say in the decision-making process rather than leaving.[/QUOTE]
In an ideal world, EU is great. But this is not an ideal world.
Politically everyone is looking out for themselves and their nearest nations with whom they have the most dealings and strongest ties with.
It's not all together, it's Me and my friends first , everyone else second but only if i get something worth my while in return and lastly those i hate get nothing ever. While Britain does not fall into the latter category (many countries don't) we do fall into category 2. Lots of acquaintances but not many friends.
[QUOTE=headshotter;47811738]Please take note : leaving the EU doesn't mean you're going to be isolated from the rest of the world all of a sudden. Treaties and trade are still there and the fact the UK kept the pound would make the leaving process easier than say, France.[/QUOTE]
You can't just economically hurt the EU by leaving, and then expect to have/remain a positive trade relationship with any of the EU states.
You'll be in a position where you're a tiny ass country, heavily reliant on a world power you just pissed off.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;47811998]I imagine the people who want to leave don't support the EU existing in the first place. Can't see why you would. The whole thing undermines national government and democracy itself.[/QUOTE]
You are proof that birthday unbans suck.
The US of E would be better then the US of A. People need to grow up and put aside sovereignty and identity, it wouldn't just give us better chances in a space race but give us better military capabilities. We could very easily reach common grounds here, let's invade Switzerland and put the EU parliament there and the Fiscal Union's capital there too, there could be the Supreme Court and all that jazz.
And really what's the fucking problem of the UK, almost (mostly above 20% at least you won't get lost some places) everyone in the EU speaks English you balls.
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