"The disabled should be paid UNDER minium wage" - says Conservative MP - Polidicks

your talking about the guy who came up with retared idea right not the people it will fuck over.?

I say the only ones that deserve to be paid below the minimum wages are the ones that propose these cruel and heartless suggestions. Not only are you forced to live with a disability that potentially makes your life harder to enjoy, but to have someone decide that you're inferior and should be paid less because of your disability is just cold blooded thinking. A human's value goes beyond his productivity and it is our common responsibility to ensure that everyone can afford to survive, that's why welfare and minimum wages exist. Giving employers incentatives to hire disabled is good but should be done via tax cuts instead so the disabled can still enjoy the quality of life he is entitled to as a human being.

Well then I guess it's not minimum wage anymore is it?

[QUOTE=lavacano;30532562]Well then I guess it's not minimum wage anymore is it?[/QUOTE] Well what do you want to call it?

i suppose it wouldn't be the first bad thing to happen to them?

He's not trying to go after disabled people, he has good intentions. Still, I disagree with his theory and I believe everybody should be paid at least minimum wage.

[QUOTE=s0beit;30525374]How about this, instead of telling people what they should be working for, put your theories to the test and allow people to work at whatever wages they want, allow them to opt out of the minimum wage. Don't allow businesses to set wages below the standard minimum, but allow workers applying to work for lower if they want. Is this a problem?[/QUOTE] It will cause people who really want a job to work for less and then the people who work for less will take all the jobs of the people who want to do minimum wage. Many people desperate for a job would expect to do lower then minimum wage and would turned down unless they do.

[QUOTE=Contag;30525472] *sigh* yes it is you randroid[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;30530749]If you do that then there would be people working for less than minimum wage, so whey would they hire someone for minimum wage or higher if they know they can find someone else willing to work for less.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;30534901]It will cause people who really want a job to work for less and then the people who work for less will take all the jobs of the people who want to do minimum wage. Many people desperate for a job would expect to do lower then minimum wage and would turned down unless they do.[/QUOTE] So, officially, the minimum wage isn't about stopping the greedy capitalists from robbing the worker with low wages, it's about stopping people from making their own decisions. Got it.

[QUOTE=s0beit;30536368] it's about stopping people from making their own decisions.[/QUOTE] Yup, as all economic regulation is.

[QUOTE=s0beit;30536368]So, officially, the minimum wage isn't about stopping the greedy capitalists from robbing the worker with low wages, it's about stopping people from making their own decisions. Got it.[/QUOTE] A bunch of people deciding to work for less than minimum wage is detrimental to everyone who isn't willing to do so. It's about regulating the market

When I get the chance, I'm definately moving to a country which has a better government. [editline]18th June 2011[/editline] Hell, even Australia's government is better than this.

[QUOTE=Raptortheawesome;30538033] Hell, even Australia's government is better than this.[/QUOTE] Unless you're disabled, I don't see why you would want to move from your current country to australia just because your country has lower wages for disabled where australia has overpriced shit, bad internet, bans everywhere and stuff.

When did I say I wanted to go to Australia?

Nvm worded it wrong, you said australia was better. I am not sure how that is better though

From a business stand point it becomes illogical to hire disabled workers because they cannot justify being paid minimum wage (the same goes for uneducated workers) through their efforts. You don't want to lose out on money so you don't hire them. Now if they cost less to hire to compensate for their lesser productivity, they'll actually get hired.

[QUOTE=Ama-zake;30526162]Unfortunately, this two-face issue is one where both sides' arguments aren't really the most optimal for the good of the disabled. On one hand, employers have some incentive to hire disabled workers over others and it's great that those people are working because they might have not gotten the job otherwise. On the other hand, if you lower the minimum wage people [b]are[/b] going to get paid the bare minimum and if employers lower minimum wages for these types of people who already struggle with things like medical insurance and their preexisting disabilities (which would happen under this measure) that's simply atrocious. Getting more of the disabled employed is a splendid thing. However, there could be other ways of doing it, like leaving the minimum wage as is and offering tax incentives to businesses that employ the disabled (which would pay back the economy and save money for the government, in turn, due to the employed having spending money and paying taxes).[/QUOTE] Exactly, how about incentivising businesses with tax breaks like the government has always done? That's the conclusion both of us came to, not sure why this guy in all of his brilliance was incapable of doing that. There's absolutely no reason to pay a disabled person less for the work they do. Just because they happen to have a disability doesn't mean that their work will necessarily lack in quality compared to the work others do. I mean, he lists people on disability for mental issues as an example. I'm one of those people. I'm capable of doing good work, sometimes better than my peers, at the same rate. The problem is that I can't do it consistently, sometimes not at all. Naturally I shouldn't get paid for work I don't do, but the work that gets done shouldn't be discounted just because I happen to have more difficulty in the process. tl;dr fuck this guy, I am personally offended. [editline]18th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Raykak;30538590]From a business stand point it becomes illogical to hire disabled workers because they cannot justify being paid minimum wage (the same goes for uneducated workers) through their efforts. You don't want to lose out on money so you don't hire them. Now if they cost less to hire to compensate for their lesser productivity, they'll actually get hired.[/QUOTE] You do realize that most people in starting positions start at higher than minimum wage to begin with, right? It's not like being paid min. wage would put them on equal terms with the rest of the work force. Being disabled makes it so working becomes extremely difficult or impossible compared to those without that disability. So because they have to work harder to achieve the same result, they should be punished? No.

[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;30538673] You do realize that most people in starting positions start at higher than minimum wage to begin with, right? It's not like being paid min. wage would put them on equal terms with the rest of the work force. Being disabled makes it so working becomes extremely difficult or impossible compared to those without that disability. So because they have to work harder to achieve the same result, they should be punished? No.[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand that severely disabled peoples are not going to be working ANYWHERE that does not start at minimum wage. If anything this policy change would help disabled people get jobs where they can't get them already. As it is now, employers do not consider those who cannot justify minimum wage, if minimum wage was reduced certain disabled peoples would be in the running for position openings. Not to mention disabled people already pull money in from Social Security.

If your disability does not impact your work performance, you will get normal pay.

Congrats on making a misleading thread title and causing an argument, he said they should be ALLOWED to be paid less than minimum so they have a better chance of finding employment

[QUOTE=johan_sm;30525164]I don't see a problem. Getting under minimum is better than no wage. I mean, if his disability makes him do the job not as good as without a disability.[/QUOTE] congratulations, you're an asshole.

I agree, I am sick of the government paying them to sit on their asses all day and Taking my tax dollars. Either work, or don't get free money. They need to make themselves useful.

[QUOTE=Kondor58;30539367]Congrats on making a misleading thread title and causing an argument, he said they should be ALLOWED to be paid less than minimum so they have a better chance of finding employment[/QUOTE] if an employer [i]can[/i] pay less than minimum wage, chances are they [i]will[/i] pay them less than minimum wage

Minimum wages are unfortunately a part of these austerity cuts, much like the job cuts and reliance on private sector making the jobs up that were lost so the private sector just makes a shit-ton of minimum wage jobs. I hope there are some grants for more power stations to be produced, I'd like to see more manufacturing jobs in particular as I might find it more interesting than my office job and as I don't plan on moving out of the UK because I like it too much here to leave. Guess I'll just have to deal with it until a time comes where I can choose a job that I might find more interesting than an office job :sigh:

[QUOTE=s0beit;30536368]So, officially, the minimum wage isn't about stopping the greedy capitalists from robbing the worker with low wages, it's about stopping people from making their own decisions. Got it.[/QUOTE] No didn't we just explain that it is about this since everyone would be working for lower then minimum wage so everyone would get robbed? Really how can you just blow off what we said as we hate choices? [editline]18th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Raykak;30538590]From a business stand point it becomes illogical to hire disabled workers because they cannot justify being paid minimum wage (the same goes for uneducated workers) through their efforts. You don't want to lose out on money so you don't hire them. Now if they cost less to hire to compensate for their lesser productivity, they'll actually get hired.[/QUOTE] Yea but you they wont be able to live on less then minimum wage. You know the minimum wage is determined by the minimum amount of money it takes to live in that state? Maybe it might work if the government payed the difference or something but by going them table scrap for having to work harder is just going to cause a bunch of tired extremely poor disabled people.

So a handicapped man with an unshakeable work ethic should get paid less than the college dropout slacker?

Doesn't this make it better value for them to go on the doll than work for less than minimum wage?

The issue with anything related to minimum wage laws is a lack of knowledge of the arguments against it. There is a large consensus among economists that minimum wage laws are not at all positive and they back up their reasoning very well and are able to address all these misconceptions. The biggest issue with arguing this using the handicapped as an example is that people are more willing to see the entire statement as saying that "handicapped are less valuable" as opposed to "employers are not as willing to employ handicapped people and eliminating price control on wage would be a solution to this". [QUOTE=Run&Gun12;30547050]So a handicapped man with an unshakeable work ethic should get paid less than the college dropout slacker?[/QUOTE] Depends on who is able to perform better. Also, the argument isn't that they should get paid less, rather that they should be able to work for less if they choose. Any argument used to support the elimination of minimum wage laws can be used to support the claim that the handicapped would benefit from it as well. The primary issue with such a focus on the handicapped is that you and others are not willing to understand the argument and are far more willing to look at the issues from the perspective that the initiative would only work to lower the wages of already employed handicapped people and that it would do more harm than good.

[QUOTE=Pepin;30547818] "employers are not as willing to employ handicapped people and eliminating price control on wage would be a solution to this". [/QUOTE] Again below minimum wage you cant even survive. This will just cause disabled to rely on government help.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;30547946]Again below minimum wage you cant even survive. This will just cause disabled to rely on government help.[/QUOTE] Which implies that without a minimum wage law that there would be millions of homeless people which isn't true. The argument also implies that somehow the price of living is not at all connected with the price of labor. To put it like this, the majority of low income earners consume the most food, gas, and many other goods. If you were to take them out of the picture, the majority of companies would go broke unless they were to raise the prices on their goods significantly and then they'd still go broke because nobody would be willing to pay such a price. This is to say that the prices of the majority of goods is dependent upon what the largest consumer group would be able/willing to pay. To go on, many economists have made the argument that minimum wage laws have done more harm than good by putting more people on government welfare. I'd really suggest looking into it yourself because I am not going to be able to explain every aspect in a couple of posts. You really have to get the economic myths and belief that good intentions provide good results to be able to understand this issue.

[QUOTE=Pepin;30548444]Which implies that without a minimum wage law that there would be millions of homeless people which isn't true[/QUOTE] Please explain. Really if you look at illegal immigrants you would see that without minimum wage people will take what they can get and the employer will give them whatever they want. Really are you tryning to say that if they are able to pay there people less then products price would go down? yes that is true and thats what wallmart does but we don't want this. This means that the products will eventually have to become cheaply made and it would cause horrible competition with employes causing them to ask for less and less pay meaning its harder for the poor to get a better paying job.