Trump on Hawaii false missile alert: 'They made a mistake' - Polidicks

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;53054672]Except the system is specifically designed to prevent that from happening, and has no method of removing the backups, short of destroying the entire system. I get what your saying, but the actual power of the president is nil when it comes to how these records are stored and accessed.[/QUOTE] I would not ever underestimate just how far a narcissist egomaniac would be willing to go to protect something that even smudges their 'perfect outward appearance'. The actual power of the President is how far they're willing to stretch their authority. If the President presumes he has no limits: He has none until someone stops him. If nobody stops him: His power is dictatorial. Example given: "The President doesn't have the power to fire Mueller." The President has the power to continuously fire and rehire the AG until he finds someone willing to fire Mueller. Thereby, assuming no checks on his power, the President has the power to fire Mueller. The President has the power to accomplish darn near anything if nobody stops him from asserting that power flagrantly and in massive violation of the checks and balances of our government.

Can we all just take a step back and look at what Trumps remarks actually were? After all, this thread is about what he said regarding Hawaii. Call me crazy but I don't think what he said is weird or even particularly note-worthy. It just seems like a standard response to what happened. [QUOTE]"Well, that was a state thing, but we're going to now get involved with them. I love that they took responsibility, they took total responsibility, but we're going to get involved," he said. "Their attitude and what they want to do, I think it's terrific. They took responsibility, they made a mistake." "Well, we hope it won't happen again, but part of it is that people are on edge, and maybe eventually we'll solve the problem and they won't have to be so on edge."[/QUOTE] I understood that perfectly fine. What's the issue? That he repeated himself a couple times? I think part of the problem is people intentionally looking for an issue with what was said simply because of [I]who[/I] said it.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;53054689]The DOD wouldn't execute said order because it'd be unconstitutional. No matter how hard former reality TV star Trump tried, there would be no method of destroying that data that wouldn't get immediately fucked by the court system, or by the DoD.[/QUOTE] "No sir, I won't do it." [I]"You're relieved from duty. Put your subordinate on the line."[/I] [I]"Hello, subordinate? Do my dirty work."[/I] "No sir, I won't do it." [I]"No? You're relieved from duty. Put your subordinate on the line."[/I] [I]"Hello, sub-subordinate? Do my dirty work and I'll make you a Three Star General. You'll do it? Great."[/I] Trump is more than willing to get into a fight with the court system. He has done so all his life. I'd wager he thinks highly of himself enough that he'd be willing to go toe-to-toe with the DoD as well because 'I'm your boss, you're not mine'. E: I mean he put in a district attourney who he believes is 'loyal to him' in the district that Mueller has implied he'd have state crimes thrown at him. He's more than willing to be transparently corrupt.

[QUOTE=Blazyd;53054688]Can we all just take a step back and look at what Trumps remarks actually were? After all, this thread is about what he said regarding Hawaii. Call me crazy but I don't think what he said is weird or even particularly note-worthy. It just seems like a standard response to what happened. I understood that perfectly fine. What's the issue? That he repeated himself a couple times? I think part of the problem is people intentionally looking for an issue with what was said simply because of [I]who[/I] said it.[/QUOTE] Who do you know who talks like that? It's not because of who said it, don't bring partisanship into this. It's about how it sounds when you read it out loud. No one talks with that much repetition. [editline]15th January 2018[/editline] re: dementia, I don't know if he has it and I take expert opinions on the matter with a large grain of salt considering none of them have actually studied Trump personally but you can see a [I]clear [/I]decline in how coherent his speech is over the years.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;53054699]And how does subordinate destroy said data? It's not listed as to where its stored, nor is there a delete function. Does he destroy the entire datacenter? So that the subordinate gets charged with hipaa violation (destruction of healthcare information is also subject to hipaa). He also gets charged at the state level, not the federal level, so trumps pardon means fuck about shit in regards to the charges brought against him, as every state has laws protecting electronic healthcare data and how it's stored. Do you really think trump's going to issue hundreds of pardons, just so his healthcare information isn't subject to review? Furthermore do you not think that the court system would immediately step in? Furthermore do you honestly think that trump wants to give Mueller YET MORE fuel for the fire? Come on, lets be real here.[/QUOTE] Given this is Trump we're talking about, he'd first ensure that he gets a loyal AG installed in the district where that data-center's located. Then he orders the data destroyed. Then the AG dismisses the cases brought against said person. He's already shielded himself at the state level with his DA appointment from Mueller. He's willing to do quite a lot that would normally immediately begin allegations of extreme corruption with any other Presidency to fight against any smudges on his outward perfect appearance. Is that open corruption? Yeah. Is that what we've been witnessing this whole time with all of Trump's appointments? Yeah. Has he shown any sign of slowing down or showing remorse so far, or any limits as to what he's willing to call fake news? Nope. I think from Trump's vantage that Mueller doesn't even have a fire because, at the end of the day, he thinks he's above the law: "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal."

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53054686]If the President presumes he has no limits: He has none[/QUOTE] ok uve been spewing a lot of inbred bullshit but this is really quite beyond factual inaccuracy here the pres can presume as he likes, doesn't suddenly mean that the entire constitution goes up in flames and all the senators and judges and fucking any american goes "lul guess all of our laws and values and shit we care about goes the fuck out the window now, u can do whatever u like i guess m'lorde" u need to stop being so dramatic over speculation lmaoo, and while youre at it plz actually read up on the constitution and checks and balances so u can stop making an ass outta yourself tia

[QUOTE=Redswandir;53054712]ok uve been spewing a lot of inbred bullshit but this is really quite beyond factual inaccuracy here the pres can presume as he likes, doesn't suddenly mean that the entire constitution goes up in flames and all the senators and judges and fucking any american goes "lul guess all of our laws and values and shit we care about goes the fuck out the window now, u can do whatever u like i guess m'lorde" u need to stop being so dramatic over speculation lmaoo, and while youre at it plz actually read up on the constitution and checks and balances so u can stop making an ass outta yourself tia[/QUOTE] Quite right. In order for the President to more or less assume dictatorial powers he needs a captured congress and house who are willing to forgive literally anything he does. Oh wait, that's exactly where we are. When there's no check on the President's power there's no check to the President's power. That's what our checks and balance system is about - it presumes that the branches will check each other. If one branch just decides to abandon its job and let another do what it wants, there really is little recourse. E: Well, I say that but there's always armed rebellion - which the Founders would certainly advise for I imagine if they were asked 'What Americans should do if a corrupt Congress unites with the Executive, breaking the check and balance system'. "It's a republic, if you can keep it."

He should be removed either way. He isn't fit to be a president, and the fact that people haven't revolted towards the abhorrent man he is, is more of a mental declination than Trump's own mental decline.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53054381]Hardly. Mental health professionals across the country are seriously concerned about this, including at least one whom I know personally and have discussed this with at length -- with a PHD specializing in degenerative neurological conditions, who has devoted her life to the study, research, and treatment of said conditions. Trump is outwardly symptomatic of cognitive decline, to say nothing his psychological health, and it only seems to be getting worse by the month. He also has a family history of dementia and Alzheimers, and neurological decline on this level can be, and often is, hereditary. While he can't actually be properly diagnosed without him submitting to a series of cognitive tests (at least not until or unless his condition becomes so advanced that he isn't even lucid enough to speak publicly), to say that there is no evidence and no legitimate cause for concern is objectively untrue. He outwardly exhibits symptoms in line with the prospective diagnosis, and they are telling enough that thousands of licensed neurologists, psychologists, and mental health professionals are petitioning the chief physician to the president for neurological testing. There was never the slightest professional concern about Obama's mental health, on the other hand. To imply that the accusations being similar means that they are similarly unfounded is false, and so is your accusation of hypocrisy. Your gaslighting isn't helping anything or anyone. Trump's apparently declining cognitive health is a legitimate concern, supported by observable symptomatic evidence, and shared by those who are most qualified in this country to identify and corroborate the risk.[/QUOTE] If my post is gaslighting, yours is projecting. I think you've entrenched yourself a bit too deep in your belief and now anyone trying to convince you of some semblance of moderation is automatically labeled. That makes you just as bad as them in my book.

[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;53054646]then stop acting like you already know he has dementia all your latest posts about Trump talk about dementia, you sound like a broken record wait for a test to be done and released, wait for it to be confirmed legit, and we'll go from there all you're doing right now is taking shots at him, and should he actually suffer from it, you get bragging rights; no point in it, and frankly, you're adding nothing to the threads[/QUOTE] I'm saying that he is symptomatic of having dementia, or a similar degenerative condition, and that this needs to be looked into. Find a single post in which I have stated, "Trump has dementia," as a fact rather than as likelihood that needs to be investigated. As for "waiting for tests," that is [I]exactly[/I] what I [B]want[/B], and the White House is actively refusing to have them performed, with the GOP backing their play. We need to keep demanding that he be submitted to neurological and cognitive function testing to determine whether or not he is actively losing his grip on reality. What's happening here is clear: you're realizing that you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate, and are resorting to increasingly unfounded personal attacks to try and make your point. You keep telling me "what I [B]really[/B] mean," when what I'm actually saying couldn't be more clear.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;53054724]Ok. Sure. You do realize that this would be such a level of completely ruined that the US wouldn't be worth saving as an institution, right? You do realize that, were the system this fucked, an open revolution would be the only way of solving it, right? Look, no matter how much you want to paint him as a dictator with all this power: Trump can't do shit about dick with healthcare, hell he probably doesn't even know what CHCS or AHLTA actually are, much less how they store data, much less to the point that he's going to call people about them.[/QUOTE] I don't disagree that he has no idea how it all works. What I do disagree on is that he'd not order people around and try to find a way to get that data either expunged or be made absolutely off limits. Hell, he could've just told the doctor to not record any of the data in their visit to begin with. It is a fact that he has installed a loyal DA to the district in which Mueller would bring state-level crimes against him - a direct reaction to prevent State-level crimes from being brought against him - so is already showing the most dangerous parts of being a dictator, whose first and primary concern is ensuring that the Government works for him and not the other way around, and the first step on that path is ensuring that he is above either prosecution or dissent ("we should take a look at those libel laws" and "fake news"). E: To be clear I'm not calling him a dictator as things presently stand. I am saying that he's [I]positioning himself[/I] to become a dictator, has shown that he thinks highly of dictators, and has on several occasion implied that he believes what the President was -- was a dictator. "A Boss". There is a danger that he may decide to become a dictator that is not insignificant - and so long as Congress refuses to impeach or impugn him - no matter how despicable or indefensible his remarks and views - there exists the possibility he may one day decide 'enough is enough' and that he deserves to do precisely what he wants.

[QUOTE=Stopper;53054718]If my post is gaslighting, yours is projecting. I think you've entrenched yourself a bit too deep in your belief and now anyone trying to convince you of some semblance of moderation is automatically labeled. That makes you just as bad as them in my book.[/QUOTE] Projecting [I]what,[/I] exactly? You're the one calling me a wacky hypocrite, when all I'm doing here is citing legitimate medical concerns shared by tens of thousands of mental health professionals across the country, and frustration at this administration's continued protection if an increasingly deranged and unstable man. There's nothing inappropriate about that whatsoever. To imply that this concern makes me a conspiracy theorist is the definition of gaslighting, as I'm hardly on the fringes of reason here.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;53054700]Who do you know who talks like that? It's not because of who said it, don't bring partisanship into this. It's about how it sounds when you read it out loud. No one talks with that much repetition. [editline]15th January 2018[/editline] re: dementia, I don't know if he has it and I take expert opinions on the matter with a large grain of salt considering none of them have actually studied Trump personally but you can see a [I]clear [/I]decline in how coherent his speech is over the years.[/QUOTE] He's been a businessman and a marketer his entire life - fields where repetition is a common practice used to hammer down points and sell a message. It's a widely used marketing technique used to influence people - it's literally one of the easiest methods to persuade someone. I think him being aware of those techniques are a heck of a lot more likely than having some severe undocumented mental illness causing him to speak like that.

[QUOTE=Blazyd;53054754]He's been a businessman and a marketer his entire life - fields where repetition is a common practice used to hammer down points and sell a message. It's a widely used marketing technique used to influence people - it's literally one of the easiest methods to persuade someone. I think him being aware those techniques are a heck of a lot more likely than having some severe undocumented mental illness causing him to speak like that.[/QUOTE] The first rule of marketing is to make sure your audience understands you. Switching your topics every three seconds without prompting, speaking unclearly, and contradicting yourself are all things that ensure your audience does not understand you. The Trump of the 1980s could sell a message. The Trump of today struggles to even understand his own. He's always been a rambler, mind, but he's had the ability to stay directly on point for long periods of time - unlike now. Hell, he more or less uses the exact same points as he did then in this interview. 1980s Trump arrives at conclusions. 2020s Trump arrives at stopping points vastly far away from his starting point. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8wJc7vHcTs[/media]

You make mistakes every fucking day you asshole.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53054740]Projecting [I]what,[/I] exactly? You're the one calling me a wacky hypocrite, when all I'm doing here is citing legitimate medical concerns shared by tens of thousands of mental health professionals across the country, and frustration at this administration's continued protection if an increasingly deranged and unstable man. There's nothing inappropriate about that whatsoever. To imply that this concern makes me a conspiracy theorist is the definition of gaslighting, as I'm hardly on the fringes of reason here.[/QUOTE] I called your behaviour hypocritical, you're the one calling yourself a "wacky hypocrite". Ditto for "conspiracy theorist". I share your frustration, but not your desire to jump to conclusions based on few facts. I should remind you that in the US it's illegal for a psychiatrist to make a diagnosis without having examined the patient in person. Guess why that is.

[QUOTE=Stopper;53054766]I called your behaviour hypocritical, you're the one calling yourself a "wacky hypocrite". Ditto for "conspiracy theorist". I share your frustration, but not your desire to jump to conclusions based on few facts. I should remind you that in the US it's illegal for a psychiatrist to make a diagnosis without having examined the patient in person. Guess why that is.[/QUOTE] It's not illegal, however, to make a recommendation that they get checked out. Guess why that is - or do you also see that as 'jumping to a conclusion'? Can Doctors no longer diagnose a broken arm that's bent backwards without an x-ray to confirm? Can they not even recommend an x-ray be taken because the arm appears broken?

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53054773]It's not illegal, however, to make a recommendation that they get checked out. Guess why that is - or do you also see that as 'jumping to a conclusion'? Can Doctors no longer diagnose a broken arm that's bent backwards without an x-ray to confirm? Can they not even recommend an x-ray be taken because the arm appears broken?[/QUOTE] Broken bone =/= broken mind There's thousands of good reasons to want Trump gone with mountains of evidence for each reason. The man is an idiot through and through but having personally seen people get basically eaten alive by mental disease, this isn't one of those good reasons and going around claiming it as fact only serves to discredit your words.

If he is being eaten alive by mental disease I'd say that it's one of the most compelling and good reasons to 'want Trump gone'. Wanting that conclusively proven or disproven, I think, is a fine thing to desire.

[QUOTE=Blazyd;53054754]He's been a businessman and a marketer his entire life - fields where repetition is a common practice used to hammer down points and sell a message. It's a widely used marketing technique used to influence people - it's literally one of the easiest methods to persuade someone. I think him being aware of those techniques are a heck of a lot more likely than having some severe undocumented mental illness causing him to speak like that.[/QUOTE] I ask who you know who talks like that and you say businessmen, as if hundreds of businessmen don't give public statements every year that sound far more coherent than Trump delivering even banal statements. Whatever (uncited) technique there is to use repetition to influence people it's clearly not the reptition that Trump exhibits. And again I'll bring up the point that you completely bypassed and say that you can observe him being noticeably more coherent in the past.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;53054870]I ask who you know who talks like that and you say businessmen, as if hundreds of businessmen don't give public statements every year that sound far more coherent than Trump delivering even banal statements. Whatever (uncited) technique there is to use repetition to influence people it's clearly not the reptition that Trump exhibits. And again I'll bring up the point that you completely bypassed and say that you can observe him being noticeably more coherent in the past.[/QUOTE] In fairness, he didn't say he was a [I]good[/I] businessman.

[QUOTE=Stopper;53054766]I called your behaviour hypocritical, you're the one calling yourself a "wacky hypocrite". Ditto for "conspiracy theorist". I share your frustration, but not your desire to jump to conclusions based on few facts. I should remind you that in the US it's illegal for a psychiatrist to make a diagnosis without having examined the patient in person. Guess why that is.[/QUOTE] There are really only so many ways to tell you that a diagnosis has not been made. I am not stating that Trump has dementia. Neither are any mental health professionals. What we're saying is that Trump is displaying deeply concerning behavior and patterns that are consistent with the symptoms that somebody in a declining cognitive state would present, and that this needs to be investigated and taken seriously. You are repeatedly and intentionally misrepresenting what I am saying.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53054961]There are really only so many ways to tell you that a diagnosis has not been made. I am not stating that Trump has dementia. Neither are any mental health professionals. What we're saying is that Trump is displaying deeply concerning behavior and patterns that are consistent with the symptoms that somebody in a declining cognitive state would present, and that this needs to be investigated and taken seriously. You are repeatedly and intentionally misrepresenting what I am saying.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53032653]All signs point to a single conclusion: Trump is extremely unwell. He deserves to face justice, [b]but as his dementia progresses[/b], I think it more likely that he'll up in a care facility with no memory of any of this shit.[/QUOTE] Not "as his alleged dementia progresses", not "he might have dementia, and as it progresses". You said "as his dementia progresses." As if it were a fact that he has dementia, and you're speculating on the future of his mental illness.

[QUOTE=Stopper;53054810]Broken bone =/= broken mind There's thousands of good reasons to want Trump gone with mountains of evidence for each reason. The man is an idiot through and through but having personally seen people get basically eaten alive by mental disease, this isn't one of those good reasons and going around claiming it as fact only serves to discredit your words.[/QUOTE] God's sake, man, it is not being stated as a fact. It is being stated as a likely explanation for his behavior, and one that needs to be investigated with a battery of cognitive function tests. Nobody here is rubbing their hands together in glee about this shit either. Trump having a degenerative cognitive disorder is not good news for anybody. Thinking that he should be removed from office if proven true is the ONLY rational decision here. The President of the United States is not an honorary position: his decisions are matters of life and death. He [B]must[/B] be of sound mind to perform the duties of his office. [editline]15th January 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;53054973]Not "as his alleged dementia progresses", not "he might have dementia, and as it progresses". You said "as his dementia progresses." As if it were a fact that he has dementia, and you're speculating on the future of his mental illness.[/QUOTE] Mhmm, and later down that same page I clarified my position: [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53032902]It may be unconfirmed, but frankly the warning signs are starting to get hard to ignore. If Trump isn't currently suffering from the early stages of Alzheimers, or some other degenerative cognitive condition, then the only other solution that really makes sense is a psychological disorder. I think, at this point, we [B][U]have[/U][/B] to question his mental and emotional fitness. He is the president of the United States, and openly making threats of nuclear warfare against hostile countries. [U][B]If he has lost his grip on reality and rationality, we need to know, and we need to do something about it.[/B][/U][/QUOTE] Again, not stating he has dementia as a fact, only that his behavior is disturbingly consistent with it, and that we have to take all reasonable measures to confirm whether or not he is of sound mind.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53054976] Mhmm, and later down that same page I clarified my position: Again, not stating he has dementia as a fact, only that his behavior is disturbingly consistent with it, and that we have to take all reasonable measures to confirm whether or not he is of sound mind.[/QUOTE] That's all well and good but this happens so often with you. You'll state some shit that everyone kind of agrees is likely as if it were absolute fact. Then someone points out that you can't know it, and you'll go "well OBVIOUSLY it's not a FACT yet". You're an influencer, and people won't always read your belated backtracking. Just stop doing it please.

[QUOTE=geel9;53054993]That's all well and good but this happens so often with you. You'll state some shit that everyone kind of agrees is likely as if it were absolute fact. Then someone points out that you can't know it, and you'll go "well OBVIOUSLY it's not a FACT yet". You're an influencer, and people won't always read your belated backtracking. Just stop doing it please.[/QUOTE] I'll concede that I could choose my words more carefully, but it has never been my position that Trump has dementia, only that it seems more and more likely, that such a diagnosis would be consistent with his behavior, and that we need to investigate the possibility and take the appropriate reaction of removing him from office under the 25th amendment if or when it is confirmed. There's really nothing more for me to say on this matter. I've told you my position: you can either accept it, or continue to preach about what I [I]really[/I] meant in spite of my repeated and consistent clarifications and explanations. The latter is a waste of your time, my time, and everybody else's time, however, so I'm done humoring it.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53054999]I'll concede that I could choose my words more carefully, but it has never been my position that Trump has dementia, only that it seems more and more likely. There's really nothing more for me to say on this matter. I've told you my position: you can either accept it, or continue to preach about what I [I]really[/I] meant in spite of my repeated and consistent clarifications and explanations. The latter is a waste of your time, my time, and everybody else's time, however, so I'm done humoring it.[/QUOTE] I'm not telling you what you [i]meant[/i], I'm telling you what you're [i]communicating to impressionable people[/i] who see your green mod status and put more faith in your words than should ever be considered.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that anyone on FP is impressionable enough to assume Trump has dementia in lieu of any reporting about it because someone with a green name said he did, but I am happy that we have moved to "You should have structured your sentence better" from "There is nothing wrong with Trump everyone talks like that anyone questioning it is as bad as Trump himself".

[QUOTE=geel9;53055003]I'm not telling you what you [i]meant[/i], I'm telling you what you're [i]communicating to impressionable people[/i] who see your green mod status and put more faith in your words than should ever be considered.[/QUOTE] Whatever false weight you add to my posts is your business, not mine. I'm no different than any other poster here, and this argumentative transition from the actual content of my posts to the fact that my username is green is irrelevant and awkward. I was accused of having a position that I don't, repeatedly, and clarified what my position actually is, repeatedly. That's all I can do. If that's not enough, then I don't know what to tell you.

"Trump shows obvious signs of mental decline, but refuses to get checked. He is the president, so we should probably get him checked out by a professional." "YOU CANT SAY THAT UNLESS SOMEONE HAS DIAGNOSED HIM" a multipage long argument where both sides agree that the president should be evaluated by a professional. The evaluation is unlikely to happen. Which doesn't alleviate the concern. Trump is obviously a crazy old man. The particular brand of crazy is something for professionals to decide ( spoiler alert it is dementia coupled with the single most textbook case of narcissistic personality disorder that I have ever seen), but the fact that something is broken in Trump's brain is painfully clear. Edit: you can tell I'm right because my name is green.