Obama, urging gun control, says 'shame on us' if people forget Newtown victims - Polidicks

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40093014]Its a little sad that Ridge lives in the category of gun owner that is 10 times more likely to commit suicide than the average person. The ones who keep loaded guns near easily accessed. The kind that are more likely to shoot themselves than any intruder. Nothing like a little faulty risk assessment.[/QUOTE] And what about sobotnik, who came right out and said he'd probably commit suicide if any kind of shit hits a fan?

[QUOTE=soulharvester;40093074]And what about sobotnik, who came right out and said he'd probably commit suicide if any kind of shit hits a fan?[/QUOTE] I'm failing to understand the connection. Perhaps you could explain this further for me? What about him? That is sad that he's supposedly at a higher risk than the average? It is.

[QUOTE=soulharvester;40093074]And what about sobotnik, who came right out and said he'd probably commit suicide if any kind of shit hits a fan?[/QUOTE] The sort of "shit hits the fan" I am talking about is economic collapse to the point that people are hoarding food supplies and protecting their homes with rifles. That's not the world I would like to live in. If it were regional collapse, I would flee the country.

I appreciate your concern for me, guys. But I was just joking. Neither rifle was loaded in my pics last night. The only gun I keep loaded is the handgun in my bedside table.

[QUOTE=Ridge;40095128]I appreciate your concern for me, guys. But I was just joking. Neither rifle was loaded in my pics last night. The only gun I keep loaded is the handgun in my bedside table.[/QUOTE] Doesn't change the statistic on those who committed suicide there was a huge bias to those who kept loaded weapons 'ready'.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40095203]Doesn't change the statistic on those who committed suicide there was a huge bias to those who kept loaded weapons 'ready'.[/QUOTE] I seriously doubt having to go through the effort of loading the gun they already have with the ammo they already have will be a deterrent to someone intent on taking their own life.

[QUOTE=Ridge;40095220]I seriously doubt having to go through the effort of loading the gun they already have with the ammo they already have will be a deterrent to someone intent on taking their own life.[/QUOTE] Most suicides are snap decisions though. Sometimes just having an unloaded gun locked away in the attic can make a huge difference. But yes, still greatly increases the risk of going through with a suicide attempt.

No, most suicides are the result of a long period of depression that finally overwhelms the person in question.

[QUOTE=Ridge;40095277]No, most suicides are the result of a long period of depression that finally overwhelms the person in question.[/QUOTE] Yes a person can be depressed or fantasize about suicide for months or even years. But the [I]actual[/I] decision to finally do it is often only under 5 minutes.

Kind of painting with a broad brush there. I keep a loaded firearm easily accessible. Including a shotgun. However, I live out in a rural area for one. Having a firearm at-ready is something that is needed. Further more in the case of a home invasion you would need something ready to go as well. Yet, I have never had thoughts of suicide. I know many...many people. Including many police officers who keep a loaded firearm at the ready in their home. Some of these people have been doing this for 20+ years...and oddly have yet to commit suicide. Just because you are prepared does not mean anything. I could say you fall into a statistic of most likely to cut yourself because of the knives in your house or the razor blades in your bathroom. But, the thing is, why are we connecting firearms with mental problems again? It seems like people love to point fingers at the gun as if they are all given a curse and blessed by Satan on the way out of the factory to whisper terrible things to their owner. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;40095281]Yes a person can be depressed or fantasize about suicide for months or even years. But the [I]actual[/I] decision to finally do it is often only under 5 minutes.[/QUOTE] Suicides I have been to were not random decisions. Looking at the evidence usually points to a long string of signs and symptoms leading up to the event in question. They can be very subtle. Those who commit suicide do not always come right out and say it. Those who typically do are looking for attention / help. It's the ones who are quiet and very subtle you have to be cautious on.

[QUOTE=HkSniper;40095293]Kind of painting with a broad brush there. I keep a loaded firearm easily accessible. Including a shotgun. However, I live out in a rural area for one. Having a firearm at-ready is something that is needed. Further more in the case of a home invasion you would need something ready to go as well. Yet, I have never had thoughts of suicide. I know many...many people. Including many police officers who keep a loaded firearm at the ready in their home. Some of these people have been doing this for 20+ years...and oddly have yet to commit suicide. Just because you are prepared does not mean anything. I could say you fall into a statistic of most likely to cut yourself because of the knives in your house or the razor blades in your bathroom. But, the thing is, why are we connecting firearms with mental problems again? It seems like people love to point fingers at the gun as if they are all given a curse and blessed by Satan on the way out of the factory to whisper terrible things to their owner.[/QUOTE] Again, that creationist feeling. Do you understand how statistics work? Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Who cares if you haven't committed suicide? most people don't believe it or not. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=HkSniper;40095293]Suicides I have been to were not random decisions. Looking at the evidence usually points to a long string of signs and symptoms leading up to the event in question.[/QUOTE] Who said anything about random?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdV4QG28or4[/media]

So, where exactly are these statistics that state an at-ready firearm leads to higher amounts of suicide...?

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40095281]Yes a person can be depressed or fantasize about suicide for months or even years. But the [I]actual[/I] decision to finally do it is often only under 5 minutes.[/QUOTE] Rather than rating this dumb, actually look this up you goons. The actual decision to end it all is usually quite sudden, sure they may have been thinking about it for months due to depression, but actually doing it is usually quite a quick thing. Having a firearm around does not help that, it's much easier to point a shotgun, handgun or rifle at yourself and shoot, likely killing you instantly/ quickly compared to trying to cut or hang yourself which, if done perfectly will kill you, but if not are excruciating pain for no "reward". I'm pretty sure there's some statistics for this somewhere, if I get around to it I'll look them up.

[QUOTE=HkSniper;40095319]So, where exactly are these statistics that state an at-ready firearm leads to higher amounts of suicide...?[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923#t=article[/url] [quote]The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling.3 There are at least a dozen U.S. case–control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide. The increase in risk is large, typically 2 to 10 times that in homes without guns, depending on the sample population (e.g., adolescents vs. older adults) and on the way in which the firearms were stored.[/quote] [url]http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/publications/firearmsuicide.pdf[/url] [img]http://i.imgur.com/bFH2MPF.jpg[/img] Can't copy and paste. [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/[/url] [quote]Twelve or more U.S. case control studies have compared individuals who died by suicide with those who did not and found those dying by suicide were more likely to live in homes with guns. For example, Brent and colleagues studied three groups of adolescents: 47 suicide decedents, 47 inpatient attempters, and 47 psychiatric inpatients who had never attempted suicide. Those who died by suicide were twice as likely to have a gun at home than either of the other two groups:[/quote] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/us/to-lower-suicide-rates-new-focus-turns-to-guns.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0[/url] [quote]Most researchers say the weight of evidence from multiple studies is that guns in the home increase the risk of suicide. “The literature suggests that having a gun in your home to protect your family is like bringing a time bomb into your house,” said Dr. Mark Rosenberg, an epidemiologist who helped establish the C.D.C.’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. “Instead of protecting you, it’s more likely to blow up.”[/quote] Literally every study ever done on suicide and firearms has found a clear link between the two. Are you still unconvinced? You going to stop rating everything dumb? EDIT: I'll even add quotes of the key parts if you're too lazy to read.

[QUOTE=16bit;40091405]He has neither. And theres most likely no round in the chamber.[/QUOTE] Always assume gun is loaded etc.

[QUOTE=Ridge;40095128]I appreciate your concern for me, guys. But I was just joking. Neither rifle was loaded in my pics last night. The only gun I keep loaded is the handgun in my bedside table.[/QUOTE] What how many guns do you have anyway. Is there one in every single drawer of your home?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40090326]It literally doesn't take that long to pull open a drawer. A much more sane strategy would be to keep a handgun inside the drawer, instead of leaving a loaded shotgun lying around the bedroom. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] Except the situation that somebody will break into your house to kill you is incredibly and insanely unlikely. The fact the state is getting better at the job of clamping down on crime makes the probability of getting murdered by intruders increasingly lower. Why bother investing in a gun for self-defense if the probability is so low?[/QUOTE] Pump-action shotgun. Pump once to lock the action and cock the hammer. Load with shells. Safety on. There is no round in the chamber, the safety is on, and it won't even pump unless you hit the slide release. In this scenario I am living alone. What risk does this pose to me?

[QUOTE=Bliblixe;40095483]What how many guns do you have anyway. Is there one in every single drawer of your home?[/QUOTE] I'm down to 3 rifles and one pistol. I used to have a few more... [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/UibfonOh.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40095352] Literally every study ever done on suicide and firearms has found a clear link between the two. Are you still unconvinced? You going to stop rating everything dumb? [/QUOTE] that's cool, except I keep a check on my mental health and I'm confident that I won't decide to shoot myself randomly lol. Do you put on a straight jacket every time you enter your home to prevent you from killing yourself with various household objects? you are 100% more likely to be killed by your toaster if you have one in your house versus not having one

[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;40095976]that's cool, except I keep a check on my mental health and I'm confident that I won't decide to shoot myself randomly lol. Do you put on a straight jacket every time you enter your home to prevent you from killing yourself with various household objects? you are 100% more likely to be killed by your toaster if you have one in your house versus not having one[/QUOTE] I too don't understand how statistics work. I like how people are so desperate to distance the idea that there is a connection between firearms and risk that they'll either flat out deny any evidence or try to make it out to be unsubstantial or not important.

Except your statistics imply that said suicidal person would not attempt commit suicide if they did not have access to a gun, which is entirely false. The statistics also imply that a person who previously has zero suicidal thought is suddenly going to want to commit suicide just because they have a gun. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] People commit suicide because they're depressed and have no more will to live, not because they have access to a method of killing themselves. SUICIDAL PEOPLE WILL GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO KILL THEMSELVES DO YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO UNDERSTANDING OF DEPRESSION AND SUICIDE?

[QUOTE=felix the cat;40096196]Except your statistics imply that said suicidal person would not attempt commit suicide if they did not have access to a gun, which is entirely false. The statistics also imply that a person who previously has zero suicidal thought is suddenly going to want to commit suicide just because they have a gun. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] People commit suicide because they're depressed and have no more will to live, not because they have access to a method of killing themselves. SUICIDAL PEOPLE WILL GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO KILL THEMSELVES DO YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO UNDERSTANDING OF DEPRESSION AND SUICIDE?[/QUOTE] Erm, what.

Well I'd imagine that not having the means to immediately off one's self would at least forestall the act of suicide in many cases where a person is having a depressive episode.

Except that in most cases it's planned out. People don't just decide to kill themselves at the drop of a hat simply because they have the means to.

[QUOTE=felix the cat;40096356]Except that in most cases it's planned out. People don't just decide to kill themselves at the drop of a hat simply because they have the means to.[/QUOTE] A lot of evidence has been provided to the contrary Where's yours?

[QUOTE=felix the cat;40096356]Except that in most cases it's planned out. People don't just decide to kill themselves at the drop of a hat simply because they have the means to.[/QUOTE] Seriously? We just proved this false. Or did you choose not to read any sources posted/ look it up yourself? Actually offing yourself is usually an instantaneous decision because you think it's possible at that time, the people who plan it out in advance are obviously going to kill themselves anyway, but they are severe cases, suicides by people who aren't as severely depressed (as in, it's not damn constant urges to jump off a cliff) are likely to make the decision on the spot.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40095352][url]http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923#t=article[/url] [url]http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/publications/firearmsuicide.pdf[/url] [img]http://i.imgur.com/bFH2MPF.jpg[/img] Can't copy and paste. [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/[/url] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/us/to-lower-suicide-rates-new-focus-turns-to-guns.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0[/url] Literally every study ever done on suicide and firearms has found a clear link between the two. Are you still unconvinced? You going to stop rating everything dumb? EDIT: I'll even add quotes of the key parts if you're too lazy to read.[/QUOTE] Thanks for the information. But the whole "time bomb" thing is laughable. There are many firearms sitting in the homes of Americans that have not and never will cause harm to another being, either in defense or out of malicious intent. What I would like to see is the comparison between firearms suicide and other means. Firearm suicide is not as common here, we mainly deal with cutters and medication overdoses.

Impulsive suicides make up less than 40% of all suicides. And even then statistics are incomplete because more often than not suicidal people don't drop hints that they're going to kill themselves. A suicide that may seem impulsive may have actually been planned, but you don't know because that person is dead. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] Suicide research in general is a fairly fluid and incomplete topic given the nature of the whole ordeal. You can't exactly interview someone who's just killed them self. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] If you went and asked every single person who attempted suicide (and survived, obviously) why they did it, I bet you not a single one of them will say "because I had a gun" or "because I had a bottle of pills" etc.

[QUOTE=HkSniper;40096502]Thanks for the information. But the whole "time bomb" thing is laughable. [/QUOTE] "Thanks for the information that is backed up by statistical studies done by professionals in a variety of fields but it's laughable." Holy shit why do you even bother posting. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] FP is so pro science until it's about guns and then everyone loses their fucking mind.