Idaho teen shoots burglar during home invasion, gunfight
370 replies, posted
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309645]What historic argument?
You do punish your majority for the actions of a minority, check out your patriot act or the TSA, heck one of your current presidential candidates has built his campaign on punishing well over a billion people for the actions of radicalized extremists.[/QUOTE]
i would agree with you that a gun ban would be like the patriot act, the tsa, and banning all muslims from the US aka shitty as fuck
I'm realizing that this isn't actually about guns, the problem here is being xenophobic.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309611]I don't trust my fellow Estonian with guns, and Estonia is on average better educated than America, so that's saying something.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309645]You do punish your majority for the actions of a minority, check out your patriot act or the TSA, heck one of your current presidential candidates has built his campaign on punishing well over a billion people for the actions of radicalized extremists.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;51309666]I'm realizing that this isn't actually about guns, the problem here is being xenophobic.[/QUOTE]
Food for thought
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51293531]Honestly it's fucking embarrassing for all of America and every single American that [INSERT HATED CANDIDATE HERE] has anything more than 1%.[/QUOTE]
i'd argue the presence of guns in the US provides a nonnegligible ecological benefit via hunting. due to the size of the US it would be very difficult for the federal or even state governments to run culling programs without contracting the populace as they currently do.
I just hope the teen will be alright; it's a traumatic event going through a robbery and then being forced to protect yourself in that way.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51309561]let's try this
there is a firearm on my workbench right now which will soon be 102 years old
it has survived two world wars and is a great example of late industrial era engineering
it is of a very rare type and itself is rarer still among those because it is one of a very small batch made to demonstrate the model to the prussian navy
the historic value of this weapon is considerable as its wide-scale adoption in 1915 might have changed the outcome of a world war, not to mention it's been around for 102 years
you want me, as a historian, to throw this gun into a smelter? are you going to reimburse me for the value? because there is no currency for historic value[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about historical cases like this, even here you can apply for your right to own firearms, just it's a heck of a lot more strict than in the US.
Obviously your case is different from the average joe who can buy a new gun basically at wal-mart, and doesn't apply to the discussion.
The point I'm trying to make (which might be getting lost in 1 AM insomnia) is that the boner the US has for guns as "protection" is retarded both emotionally and statistically.
If you buy a gun for protection, you're statistically several times more likely to harm yourself with it than defend yourself from anything bad that might happen. This discrepancy between those harmed by and those helped by guns is way more than big enough to allow for way tighter gun laws.
Everyone thinks they're a responsible gun owner, which is why they're so surprised when they shoot themselves.
here's where i was going with that
i have an AR-15 for home defense
if i can own a 102 year old C96 which is fully operable and runs like a clock at the range, why should i not be able to own an AR-15 for home defense
and can i not negligently shoot myself or someone else just the same? i allowed someone else to shoot this C96 at the range and he misunderstood the operation of the gun and accidentally caused it to fire, but it was pointed safely downrange and nobody was hurt
you can't go "well some guns are ok but others arent" or you end up with US gun laws, under which a shoe string is an illegal machine gun if kept near an M1 type rifle but i can drive a fully armed M18 hellcat on the highway :~)
[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51309670]Food for thought[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;51309666]I'm realizing that this isn't actually about guns, the problem here is being xenophobic.[/QUOTE]
lmao?
America is overall a better country than Estonia, and Americans in general have a better standard of living than Estonians do.
Some things are better there, and some things are better here.
Do I have to be xenophobic if this specific discussion is about a thing (one thing) that Europe does better than the US?
I mean this here
[QUOTE]Honestly it's fucking embarrassing for all of America and every single American that [INSERT HATED CANDIDATE HERE] has anything more than 1%.[/QUOTE]
I could say it of several Estonian politicians, but it wouldn't be relevant to the discussion now would it?
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309694]I'm not talking about historical cases like this, even here you can apply for your right to own firearms, just it's a heck of a lot more strict than in the US.
Obviously your case is different from the average joe who can buy a new gun basically at wal-mart, and doesn't apply to the discussion.
The point I'm trying to make (which might be getting lost in 1 AM insomnia) is that the boner the US has for guns as "protection" is retarded both emotionally and statistically.
If you buy a gun for protection, you're statistically several times more likely to harm yourself with it than defend yourself from anything bad that might happen. This discrepancy between those harmed by and those helped by guns is way more than big enough to allow for way tighter gun laws.
Everyone thinks they're a responsible gun owner, which is why they're so surprised when they shoot themselves.[/QUOTE]
a far easier, likely cheaper and more effective way to lower the amount of accidental shootings without massively rewriting gun laws (far easier said than ever could be accomplished) would be to bring back gun safety courses in schools.
owning small firearms, especially for home defense, is just fine. Now, when it gets into the territory where you can get large magazines, fully auto shit, that's a nono in my opinion. But you should always be able to defend your home from no-good crooks who are just as likely to shoot you as they are tie you up if you surrender. Especially in a place like america, which doesn't have very strict gun ownership laws, and a lot of illegal guns.
Its so hard to read ecksdees posts here without wanting to scream at my computer screen
[QUOTE=Wazbat;51309115]Do robbers really harm the people though? Most with sense just know that getting caught for robbery is a lot lighter than murder or rape. Rare cases exist where you get fucking nutjobs but there not that common.
I guess I'm just used to a normal police response time being a matter of minutes[/QUOTE]
Yes. Quite frequently when there are occupants.
Rape is also frequently a feature of home invasions where women live.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51309700]here's where i was going with that
i have an AR-15 for home defense
if i can own a 102 year old C96 which is fully operable and runs like a clock at the range, why should i not be able to own an AR-15 for home defense
you can't go "well some guns are ok but others arent" or you end up with US gun laws, under which a shoe string is an illegal machine gun if kept near an M1 type rifle but i can drive a fully armed M18 hellcat on the highway :~)[/QUOTE]
here i thought it's because one has historic value and the other has no value
really applying for each gun should be a separate activity. You go and say "I have this gun with incredible value both historically and it costs a billion trillion dollars" and they go "yeah its coo'"
Then you go and say "I want to own an AR15 for home defense" then they should go "ok but you gotta go through a billion hours of training and courses, cause that thing legit aint no joke" and if you can't pass those (very strict) tests then you can't own the AR, simple as that.
Like it or not "some guns are ok but others arent"
[QUOTE=Kybalt;51309642]Source?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;51309564]Y'know it isn't like in the movies where they say "no witnesses", and then kill a family over a flatscreen TV?[/QUOTE]
Source?
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51309712]a far easier, likely cheaper and more effective way to lower the amount of accidental shootings without massively rewriting gun laws (far easier said than ever could be accomplished) would be to bring back gun safety courses in schools.[/QUOTE]
Would be a start yeah.
My main problem with people owning guns is the insane amount of human trauma and damage it causes, not the fact that guns are technically as an invention meant for killing. This is rectified with education and training.
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=InfectedPotato;51309720]Its so hard to read ecksdees posts here without wanting to scream at my computer screen[/QUOTE]
i guess screaming is easier than coming up with arguments
edit
also im going to bed night
functionally the only real difference between the ar and the c96 insofar as shooting stuff goes is the c96 has a fixed internal 10rd mag
the c96 has a stock and everything
if i can own one why not the other
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51309774]functionally the only real difference between the ar and the c96 insofar as shooting stuff goes is the c96 has a fixed internal 10rd mag
the c96 has a stock and everything
if i can own one why not the other[/QUOTE]
Because one is black and scary looking, and the other is wood, making it less lethal. Did you sleep through your safety courses?
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51309741]Source?[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf[/url]
[quote]• Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence
occurred during a burglary while a resident was present. About
12% of all households violently burglarized while someone was
home faced an offender armed with a firearm[/quote]
[quote]Serious injury accounted for 9% and minor injury accounted
for 36% of injuries sustained by household members who were
home and experienced violence during a completed burglary.[/quote]
Honestly the numbers are higher than I expected, but it isn't "no witnesses" shit at all as you had implied.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309395]There's a reason why these stories are in the news.
It's because they rarely happen.
What you don't have in the news is the tens of thousands of accidental(and intentional) gun deaths and injuries you have every year.
But hey, all those deaths are worth it if you get to keep your boom stick for whatever reason and for the one family a month that shoots and permanently disfigures an intruder who could be rehabilitated and become a functional member of society.[/QUOTE]
How sheltered are you?
These threads always have that one delusional idealist. No little boy, if somebody invades me house and I have the chance to shoot the guy I am taking the shot. I known people who were raped or killed. I am not going to let some criminal rape or harm my family and I am defineitly not going care about his chances of "rehabilitation" when this guy breaks into my home and at that point I wouldnt know if he wants to rob me or kill me or whatever, I am not going to take chances.
I mean you do know just because its a break-in doesnt mean he is just going to rob you. I read multiple stories about rapists literally breaking in, raping some poor girl and leaving without even attempting to steal anything.
What are you going to do if that was your daughter or SO? Just sit there like an fucking pussy? Give the invader cookies? Sit there with your fucking phone in your hands talking to the 9/11 operator while you wait for police response that could take anywhere from 15-30 mins to arrive? Let that girl suffer life changing PTSD, sucidial thoughts, and many horrible effects?
Like seriously dude man the fuck up. If somebody breaking into your house, they are a threat. Also if you actually read the article you would notice this:
[QUOTE]“As soon as he saw us step into the room, that’s when he started shooting at us,” Bob said. “And the bullets were flying past us. I can’t believe we didn’t get hit.”[/QUOTE]
The dude was fucking shooting at them. How the fuck can you just suggest they just call 911 while they are actively gettinh shot at?
I mean do you even know why police officers carry guns? You must have been raised in a fucking utopia to come up with this shit
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309743]edit
also im going to bed night[/QUOTE]
Ah, the typical cop out when one has ran out of strawmen.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309489][B]73,000[/B] firearm injuries[/QUOTE]
In a country of 320 million, in one year that accounts for 0.0225% of the population. Most firearm violence involves a single attacker and victim, and is often premeditated. Statistically significant? I don't think so.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309489][B]11,000[/B] homicides[/QUOTE]
Percentage on this one? 0.0034375 percent. Again, majority of this is one on one and premeditated. Making the number bolder doesn't detract from the fact that it is both statistically irrelevant, and in the grand scheme of things guns are not relevant - did I mention that getting shot statistically makes you [I]less[/I] likely to die? 10% of people who are shot die, in contrast to a 30% fatality rate for being stabbed. Ask an EMT, you will hear that the difference between a winner of a knife fight and a loser is that the loser dies on scene; the winner dies at the hospital.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309489][B]21,175[/B] suicides[/QUOTE]
I'll give you this one, but how about instead of taking guns away we stop people from wanting to kill themselves in the first place? That seems logical if you actually cared about people.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51309577]How about this
If you don't want guns you don't need to buy one
If someone feels like they need something to defend themselves with it's none of your business[/QUOTE]
No no no dont you see his personal beliefs and lifestyle is the only right way to live so we must force the entire nation to act the same as him.
Pretty much every anti-gun nut's arguments boils down to the same "because i dont like it" and then post a bunch of bullshit that gets proven wrong in pretty much all gun related threads.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309611]I don't trust my fellow Estonian with guns, and Estonia is on average better educated than America, so that's saying something.[/QUOTE]
America also has 300x the population lol. Did school teach you how that's a factor or do you not understand?
[QUOTE=Jouska;51309807]How sheltered are you?
These threads always have that one delusional idealist. No little boy, if somebody invades me house and I have the chance to shoot the guy I am taking the shot. I known people who were raped or killed. I am not going to let some criminal rape or harm my family and I am defineitly not going care about his chances of "rehabilitation" when this guy breaks into my home and at that point I wouldnt know if he wants to rob me or kill me or whatever, I am not going to take chances.
I mean you do know just because its a break-in doesnt mean he is just going to rob you. I read multiple stories about rapists literally breaking in, raping some poor girl and leaving without even attempting to steal anything.
What are you going to do if that was your daughter or SO? Just sit there like an fucking pussy? Give the invader cookies? Sit there with your fucking phone in your hands talking to the 9/11 operator while you wait for police response that could take anywhere from 15-30 mins to arrive? Let that girl suffer life changing PTSD, sucidial thoughts, and many horrible effects?
Like seriously dude man the fuck up. If somebody breaking into your house, they are a threat. Also if you actually read the article you would notice this:
The dude was fucking shooting at them. How the fuck can you just suggest they just call 911 while they are actively gettinh shot at?
I mean do you even know why police officers carry guns? You must have been raised in a fucking utopia to come up with this shit[/QUOTE]
oh don't get me wrong if someone was trying to harm me or my family I'd fuck them up big time, but if they're here to steal some shit and are trying to run away (like the guy in the article was) then I see no reason to escalate.
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51309815]Ah, the typical cop out when one has ran out of strawmen.[/QUOTE]
i'm back cause i heard you being weak sorry
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51309836]America also has 300x the population lol. Did school teach you how that's a factor or do you not understand?[/QUOTE]
china has 1200x the population and it has less gun deaths, less incarceration and better educational standards than the US (forgetting for the moment that their system is incredibly extreme when it comes to schooling)
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309851]oh don't get me wrong if someone was trying to harm me or my family I'd fuck them up big time, but if they're here to steal some shit and are trying to run away (like the guy in the article was) then I see no reason to escalate.[/QUOTE]
So the burglar shooting at them isn't trying to harm them?
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309851]oh don't get me wrong if someone was trying to harm me or my family I'd fuck them up big time[/QUOTE]
So, fake tough guy, he/she has a gun and he/she already shot and wounded you, how can you fuck them up big time if you didn't want to defend yourself? Are you going to throw some pans at him/her and expect everything to be alright?
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309851]oh don't get me wrong if someone was trying to harm me or my family I'd fuck them up big time, but if they're here to steal some shit and are trying to run away (like the guy in the article was) then I see no reason to escalate.[/QUOTE]
Except the family weren't the ones who escalated.
The guy opened fire first.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;51309819]
I'll give you this one, but [B]how about instead of taking guns away we stop people from wanting to kill themselves in the first place?[/B] That seems logical if you actually cared about people.[/QUOTE]
absolutely
[QUOTE]In a country of 320 million, in one year that accounts for 0.0225% of the population. Most firearm violence involves a single attacker and victim, and is often premeditated. Statistically significant? I don't think so.[/QUOTE]
40 000 people a year die because they don't have access to healthcare in the US, does that issue also not matter because it's such a small number?
It's technically reversed since those people die because of access to guns, and the others die because of lack of access to healthcare, but the point stands.
[QUOTE]Percentage on this one? 0.0034375 percent. Again, majority of this is one on one and premeditated. Making the number bolder doesn't detract from the fact that it is both statistically irrelevant, and in the grand scheme of things guns are not relevant - did I mention that getting shot statistically makes you less likely to die? 10% of people who are shot die, in contrast to a 30% fatality rate for being stabbed. Ask an EMT, you will hear that the difference between a winner of a knife fight and a loser is that the loser dies on scene; the winner dies at the hospital.[/QUOTE]
Yeah fatality rates are 'better' with guns, I agree.
Even taking that into account though, more people die from gun violence than 'knife violence' a year.
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=PaChIrA;51309858]So the burglar shooting at them isn't trying to harm them?[/QUOTE]
Absolutely he was.
After he was cornered while trying to escape the house, as the article says.
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shalaska;51309862]Except the family weren't the ones who escalated.
The guy opened fire first.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, bad choice of words, I don't want to blame the victim but I will anyway. Following a desperate burglar into a closed room is not exactly the way to de-escalate a situation.
Though I guess that won't really come to mind when pumped full of adrenaline.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309851]oh don't get me wrong if someone was trying to harm me or my family I'd fuck them up big time, but if they're here to steal some shit and are trying to run away (like the guy in the article was) then I see no reason to escalate.
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
i'm back cause i heard you being weak sorry
[editline]4th November 2016[/editline]
china has 1200x the population and it has less gun deaths, less incarceration and better educational standards than the US (forgetting for the moment that their system is incredibly extreme when it comes to schooling)[/QUOTE]
The issue is that unless you're psychic, you won't know if they're there to kill you or just run off with your TV until either you're in the process of being murdered, or they're holding your TV. Then there's no guarantee they won't just drop the TV upon being spotted and kill you then, or just run away. You can't take chances when it's your life. You only have one life, don't think that you know what an intruder is going to do, that's how you end it really quickly. Also the guy in the article IMMEDIATELY FUCKING SHOT AT THEM. SIX TIMES. How is that "trying to run away"?
Plus China is communist and the general standard of living is horrific, and you have basically zero say in what happens. The government has total control over everything, including what information comes through on the internet and for a while, even what gender of children you could produce. They're an awful example.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51309873]Absolutely he was.
After he was cornered while trying to escape the house, as the article says.[/QUOTE]
And he was cornered while trying to escape a house he was robbing.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Is the family meant to just ignore the stranger trying to bolt out of their house with their property?
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