[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29253029]I won't purport to know that you suddenly zip into the new body and start controlling it, but the consciousness controlling the new creation is utterly indistinguishable from the old one. (if consciousness is purely mechanical) So what makes them different people? How can you say someone has died if he is recreated in perfect detail? Does that consciousness really end, then?[/QUOTE]
yeah the concioussness that is destroyed ends. It's like having two identical cubes, they have the exact same structure but they are two different objects.
well guys about the "you" talk
let's say your country is at war, and you and your family are in a bunker that's gonna collapse
you have a teleporter to a safe secret place far, far away
would you get in the teleporter?
you'd never know if you'd stay with the same consciousness you are right now, for if you 'died' you'd not know you did because your consciousness doesn't exist anymore
the you on the other side of the teleporter would be the first one, thinking, memories, everything intact
would you get in the teleporter and save your family (that would be just the same) or not?
it'd be pretty fucking selfish and anti-preservational not to
[QUOTE=blubafoon;29253116]I was agreeing but ok
determinism loves it some cause and effect[/QUOTE]
Oh I see!
Forgive me for misinterpreting you then :buddy:
[QUOTE=Robbobin;29253086]As I see it they're essentially the same thing - science is just more inductive.[/QUOTE]
absolutely wrong
science and philosophy are two different fields that study different things - the problems appear when they try to get into the other's hood
[editline]17th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29253029][B]I won't purport to know that you suddenly zip into the new body and start controlling it[/B], but [B]the consciousness controlling the new creation is utterly indistinguishable from the old one. (if consciousness is purely mechanical)[/B] So what makes them different people? How can you say someone has died if he is recreated in perfect detail? Does that consciousness really end, then?[/QUOTE]
ding ding ding
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253175]well guys about the "you" talk
let's say your country is at war, and you and your family are in a bunker that's gonna collapse
you have a teleporter to a safe secret place far, far away
would you get in the teleporter?
you'd never know if you'd stay with the same consciousness you are right now, for if you 'died' you'd not know you did because your consciousness doesn't exist anymore
the you on the other side of the teleporter would be the first one, thinking, memories, everything intact
would you get in the teleporter and save your family (that would be just the same) or not?
it'd be pretty fucking selfish and anti-preservational not to[/QUOTE]
Well I guess if you're going to die either way it's worth taking the chance, plus death by teleporter would likely be a lot less painful than being crushed.
[QUOTE=Patjo_sweden;29253123]yeah the concioussness that is destroyed ends. It's like having to exact same cubes, they have the exact same structure but they are two different objects.[/QUOTE]
Depends what you mean by different. They are not really different. They are indistinguishable copies of each other. I don't disagree that they're separate entities but if you have Cube A and Cube B, and Cube A exists in some universe, then time freezes, you delete Cube A and replace it with Cube B, and restart time, and the universe is exactly the same. So why does everyone insist on claiming that they're somehow distinct from each other?
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253175]well guys about the "you" talk
let's say your country is at war, and you and your family are in a bunker that's gonna collapse
you have a teleporter to a safe secret place far, far away
would you get in the teleporter?
you'd never know if you'd stay with the same consciousness you are right now, for if you 'died' you'd not know you did because your consciousness doesn't exist anymore
the you on the other side of the teleporter would be the first one, thinking, memories, everything intact
would you get in the teleporter and save your family (that would be just the same) or not?
it'd be pretty fucking selfish and anti-preservational not to[/QUOTE]
yeah I'd get my family to go through as well
in fact i'd probably go through a few times
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;29253231]Well I guess if you're going to die either way it's worth taking the chance, plus death by teleporter would likely be a lot less painful than being crushed.[/QUOTE]
you wouldn't die in this example
we gotta abstract a bit and lay back to get this, it's pretty fucking mindtwisting
if you "die" (your t=0 consciousness doesn't get transported to the t=1 you) you won't even know you didn't make it, since your consciousness is what tells you you're here
the t=1 you would say "holy shit this worked!" and everyone would be happy
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253199]absolutely wrong
science and philosophy are two different fields that study different things - the problems appear when they try to get into the other's hood[/QUOTE]
Absolutely wrong? Then am I wrong in thinking science is essentially a method for discovering epistemology and metaphysics? I'm aware they're two different fields, and they carry out different functions. But science, as I see it, is entirely derivative of philosophy.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;29253289]Absolutely wrong? Then am I wrong in thinking science is essentially a method for discovering epistemology and metaphysics? I'm aware they're two different fields, and they carry out different functions. But science, as I see it, is entirely derivative of philosophy.[/QUOTE]
it's a branch
monkeys are not bacteria and they don't eat the same way bacteria does
[QUOTE=Vasili;29202878]Thats cool, be nice to travel to countries via a teleport.[/QUOTE]
Even if that was what they were working on, that would mean you would be destroyed and recreated elsewhere. Meaning, YOU'LL DIE!!!
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253273]you wouldn't die in this example
we gotta abstract a bit and lay back to get this, it's pretty fucking mindtwisting
if you "die" (your t=0 consciousness doesn't get transported to the t=1 you) you won't even know you didn't make it, since your consciousness is what tells you you're here
the t=1 you would say "holy shit this worked!" and everyone would be happy[/QUOTE]
Well I would die, but it would allow a copy of me to exist, plus there's always the chance that some kind of magical spirit thingy could bring "me" back to life :v:
[QUOTE=Robbobin;29253289]Absolutely wrong? Then am I wrong in thinking science is essentially a method for discovering epistemology and metaphysics? I'm aware they're two different fields, and they carry out different functions. But science, as I see it, is entirely derivative of philosophy.[/QUOTE]
How do you discover epistemology!?
:psyduck:
[QUOTE=EastBayWilly;29253333]Even if that was what they were working on, that would mean you would be destroyed and recreated elsewhere. Meaning, YOU'LL DIE!!![/QUOTE]
can you please just read what we're discussing here before posting
thanks
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29253234]Depends what you mean by different. They are not really different. They are indistinguishable copies of each other. I don't disagree that they're separate entities but if you have Cube A and Cube B, and Cube A exists in some universe, then time freezes, you delete Cube A and replace it with Cube B, and restart time, and the universe is exactly the same. So why does everyone insist on claiming that they're somehow distinct from each other?[/QUOTE]
All I'm trying to say is that I wont be the entity at the other end of the teleport. But to the rest of the universe there won't be any difference at all.
[QUOTE=Patjo_sweden;29253353]All I'm trying to say is that I wont be the entity at the other end of the teleport. But to the rest of the universe there won't be any difference at all.[/QUOTE]
If there's no difference, why do you insist on drawing a distinction?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;29253338]Well I would die, but it would allow a copy of me to exist, plus there's always the chance that some kind of magical spirit thingy could bring "me" back to life :v:[/QUOTE]
which me
we're talking about something quite complicated here son
the only way to still be your t=0 you would be [I]transporting[/I] yourself, instead of the currently discussed method of rematerializing an exact copy at the other side
Motherfucking entanglement, how does it work?
[QUOTE=Patjo_sweden;29253353]All I'm trying to say is that I wont be the entity at the other end of the teleport. But to the rest of the universe there won't be any difference at all.[/QUOTE]
yes it will be you
only thing we :siren: can't know :siren: is how consciousness works, as in is it a ~magical~ thing or just electrical currents
answer that question and get 50 nobel prizes and the title of "answered a question that nobody has ever answered ever since it was formulated 40000 years ago"
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253308]it's a branch
monkeys are not bacteria and they don't eat the same way bacteria does[/QUOTE]
So we're not actually disagreeing, I just worded it poorly when I said science and philosophy are the same (when I meant science is a derivative of philosophy).
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253390]which me
we're talking about something quite complicated here son
the only way to still be your t=0 you would be [I]transporting[/I] yourself, instead of the currently discussed method of rematerializing an exact copy at the other side[/QUOTE]
The bunker me
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29253340]How do you discover epistemology!?
:psyduck:[/QUOTE]
shit. :frown:
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253434]yes it will be you
only thing we :siren: can't know :siren: is how consciousness works, as in is it a ~magical~ thing or just electrical currents
answer that question and get 50 nobel prizes and the title of "answered a question that nobody has ever answered ever since it was formulated 40000 years ago"[/QUOTE]
I will claim these 50 Nobel Prizes by being the first man to BUILD A CONSCIOUSNESS FROM SCRATCH!
I will be like unto God.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29253384]If there's no difference, why do you insist on drawing a distinction?[/QUOTE]
A lot of this is very dependant on what you define as being "you"
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;29253493]I will claim these 50 Nobel Prizes by being the first man to BUILD A CONSCIOUSNESS FROM SCRATCH!
I will be like unto God.[/QUOTE]
can i have a copy of your consciousness?
mine's kinda laggy when i'm playing cod !!
this has been one of my fav derailings ever
I think we should have a philosophy thread of some description
we could talk about robots, turing tests, free will, oo I can see it now
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;29253451]The bunker me[/QUOTE]
well yeah that consciousness would be *likely* ended, unless as i said people figure out a way to dematerialize, transport and rematerialize people
[editline]17th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=blubafoon;29253551]this has been one of my fav derailings ever[/QUOTE]
derailing?
hardly
it's just what happens when people that have more than 57 neurons start discussing actually interesting matters instead of who kicks more ass in CSS
It won't be the same entity, but it will be equal to the other entity, so why care?
It's like two equal mathematical proof written on different pieces of paper.
[QUOTE=Gonzales Santos;29253519]can i have a copy of your consciousness?
mine's kinda laggy when i'm playing cod !![/QUOTE]
"How are you so good at math?"
"I bought a nice consciousness off of eBay."
I am of the bizarre belief that phenomological states are purely mechanical states. Which doesn't sound that bizarre, but if this is the case, I'm committed to the idea that even tiny, simple atomic structures possess very rudimentary what-is-it-like-ness. And in the same way, the entire cosmos possesses some kind of phenomological state.
I am fine with this conclusion :psyduck:
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