DEVELOPING: Shooting reported at Connecticut elementary school; 27 killed - Polidicks

[QUOTE=NateLB;38833863]It's because most firearm owners are responsible. However, from what the news want's to say, the minority of whack-jobs with guns is made out to be the majority of gun owners. It's pretty sad. Had the guy gone in and killed everyone with a knife, they wouldn't call for a ban on knives. The thing is fucked up, lots of little kids died, but guns weren't the culprit, the person wielding them is. Had anyone else in that school had a sidearm, they could have saved lives.[/QUOTE] Out of a bajillion mass shootings that have happened in the United States over the years, very few of the perpetrators have had mental health problems and absolutely none have been stopped or been helped by someone returning fire.

[QUOTE=demoguy08;38833923]A healthy society is a society where you [I]don't[/I] need guns to the extreme extent that you describe because people have some basic level of respect and trust in their fellow citizens. By handing everyone guns and training you are by all means telling them to trust no one and expect the worst at every street corner. It wouldn't be a stable society, it would be a virtual war zone.[/QUOTE] Except that's not how it works in Switzerland, with mandatory conscription and gun training.

[QUOTE=NateLB;38833863]Had anyone else in that school had a sidearm, they could have saved lives.[/QUOTE] depends generally giving a lot of people guns to protect against this sort of thing is a bad idea

If a society needs more guns to protect itself then there's something wrong...

[QUOTE=Atlascore;38830104]Hahahahahahahahahahaha.. wait were you being serious? Do you even know how many guns there are in America? A couple decades isn't even close to enough time to get rid of all the guns here.[/QUOTE] It'd probably take 100 years, even with forced confiscation It's pointless to suggest it. Now laws that check backgrounds of people better sure

[QUOTE=NateLB;38833876]We need tighter screening. Don't sell shit to people who have mental disorders. Shouldn't that be common sense? Personally, I think more people (responsible people) need to carry sidearms. Had anyone in that school had a gun, they could have stopped the guy. I know it's a tad different for a highschool, but we always had a cop in the building at all times with a sidearm.[/QUOTE] Problem is that it's impossible to tell out of the millions of people who is or isn't a psychopath at all times, and a smart psychopath would buy a gun off the street or acquire one illegally.

[QUOTE=person11;38833935]Out of a bajillion mass shootings that have happened in the United States over the years, very few of the perpetrators have had mental health problems and absolutely none have been stopped or been helped by someone returning fire.[/QUOTE] Wrong. The Sikh Temple shooting earlier this year was stopped by an armed citizen stopping the shooter. Similar thing happened a couple years ago in Colorado Springs, when a young man walked into a church on Christmas Eve and started shooting randomly.

[QUOTE=Vasili;38833933]Similar case happened in the UK, semi auto pistols were banned.[/QUOTE] And we haven't had a shooting with semi-auto pistols since.

[QUOTE=Falubii;38833922]If only those kids were armed...[/QUOTE] Because only kids are in a school right?

Also, the numbers speak from themselves. We have to ask why these things happen in the United States much more than in any other Western and/or rich nation. It is not just a matter of a minority of whackjobs making all gun owners look bad or some bullshit that Ron Paulites and NRA people pull out of their asses. I am not saying we should ban all guns or something. I am just saying that the status quo is untenable.

But this is honestly the most despicable event I've ever witnessed. I'm rather desensitized to violence, but this has left me cold and empty all afternoon.

[QUOTE=person11;38833935]Out of a bajillion mass shootings that have happened in the United States over the years, very few of the perpetrators have had mental health problems and absolutely none have been stopped or been helped by someone returning fire.[/QUOTE] Actually, since many of the perpetrators have killed themselves you can't be sure, but it is speculated that many of them have had mental health problems, and several have been stopped by people returning fire, you just don't see them in the media as often because not as many people die, and those where many people do die are committed in "gun free zones," meaning nobody there can have a gun to return fire with. As well, it's not a "bajillion" in the last few years, the number is more like 20-25 since 1990. This year has had about 4 now, making it an especially bad year.

[QUOTE=Ridge;38833967]Wrong. The Sikh Temple shooting earlier this year was stopped by an armed citizen stopping the shooter. Similar thing happened a couple years ago in Colorado Springs, when a young man walked into a church on Christmas Eve and started shooting randomly.[/QUOTE] You're right. I read the article more closely, and there were a couple cases. Out of 61 in the last thirty years in the USA.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38833942]Except that's not how it works in Switzerland, with mandatory conscription and gun training.[/QUOTE] Keyword here being [I]conscription.[/I] Being taught how to use your weapon in the defense of your country doesn't relate at all to how you're expected to behave in society. The way I interprete genkarz92's post is that guns and gun training is to be used as means to live an ordinary life.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38833972]And we haven't had a shooting with semi-auto pistols since.[/QUOTE] Weren't 2 police officers killed with a pistol 2 months ago?

Gun laws only affect those who chose to abide by them. Guns exist, and until their are none left on the planet, people will be killed by them; for war or for mindless violence (in some opinions these might be the same) But, guns will never cease to exist. They're established as a tool in practically every modern society and will continue to be regulated. I have no standings on gun laws. I do not own any guns. I have no need to, at least not yet. If anything, the United States needs to step up to the plate with mental health care, and how the media is allowed to publicize these sort of events.

[QUOTE=NateLB;38833975]Because only kids are in a school right?[/QUOTE] oh my god he seriously has a problem with someone insulting the "if only they were armed" thing

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38833972]And we haven't had a shooting with semi-auto pistols since.[/QUOTE] It appears someone disagrees with you though I'd like Splungey to source his disagreement.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38833990]Actually, since many of the perpetrators have killed themselves you can't be sure, but it is speculated that many of them have had mental health problems, and several have been stopped by people returning fire, you just don't see them in the media as often because not as many people die, and those where many people do die are committed in "gun free zones," meaning nobody there can have a gun to return fire with. As well, it's not a "bajillion" in the last few years, the number is more like 20-25 since 1990. This year has had about 4 now, making it an especially bad year.[/QUOTE] I was too lazy to look up a specific number, since I knew it was much higher than in any other industrialized nation. What I mean to say is that a history with mental health issues does not help in pinpointing the perpetrators. Many of these people were never diagnosed with any disorder when they snapped and started these killings. I am saying all this so that NRA people do not come in to say "we do not need gun control, that guy was just crazy". [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] Also: [url]http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation[/url] yes it is mother jones and I know they have a crazy liberal bias BUT the article is mostly statistics

Well please ask yourself what sane person goes into an elementary school and kills 20 some odd kids?

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38834008]Weren't 2 police officers killed with a pistol 2 months ago?[/QUOTE] I believe the last mass shooting utilized a shotgun.

[QUOTE=demoguy08;38833923]A healthy society is a society where you [I]don't[/I] need guns to the extreme extent that you describe because people have some basic level of respect and trust in their fellow citizens. By handing everyone guns and training you are by all means telling them to trust no one and expect the worst at every street corner. It wouldn't be a stable society, it would be a virtual war zone.[/QUOTE] Actually, it would be the exact opposite. If everyone carrying a gun knows that everyone else is doing the same, then a firm mutual sense of responsibility would be established. Respect an trust would actually be much higher, because the consequences of breaking that trust would also be much higher, and also because everyone would have a conscious and subconscious object of responsibility for them to carry around. You would feel safe, because everyone would have protection, including yourself. If a society with everyone having guns would be a warzone, then why is everyone currently with a gun not a murderer, with guns being owned by an extremely large amount of different demographics, especially considering that they would encounter much less resistance from others?

[QUOTE=Vasili;38834030]It appears someone disagrees with you though I'd like Splungey to source his disagreement.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html[/url] [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html[/url] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm[/url] Yes, you have had shootings with a semi-automatic handguns since the ban.

[QUOTE=BldrGyMnGy;38834014]Gun laws only affect those who chose to abide by them.[/QUOTE] Laws affect everyone. That's why they exist. [QUOTE=BldrGyMnGy;38834014]But, guns will never cease to exist. They're established as a tool in practically every modern society and will continue to be regulated.[/QUOTE] They can fall out of general use however. Swords have fallen out of general use, as have bows and arrows.

[QUOTE=NateLB;38834049]Well please ask yourself what sane person goes into an elementary school and kills 20 some odd kids?[/QUOTE] That is not a real argument. Remember how sane they proved Breivik to be? -snip-

[QUOTE=person11;38833977]Also, the numbers speak from themselves. We have to ask why these things happen in the United States much more than in any other Western and/or rich nation. It is not just a matter of a minority of whackjobs making all gun owners look bad or some bullshit that Ron Paulites and NRA people pull out of their asses. I am not saying we should ban all guns or something. I am just saying that the status quo is untenable.[/QUOTE] Because the current health of US society is poor, compared to many other parts of the world.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38834067]I believe the last mass shooting utilized a shotgun.[/QUOTE] You said shooting, not mass shooting. Yes, the last mass shooting was with a shotgun, and IMO that showcases how gun control will not stop mass shootings, because he used a double-barrelled shotgun. The only way to control guns farther than that is to outright ban them, and that would piss off all the UK's hunters. [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=person11;38834099]That is not a real argument. Remember how sane they proved Breivik to be? [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] I am sure the number of incidences has gone down though.[/QUOTE] Look at the BBC chart, top-right of the article, gun-related incidents are up since the '90s.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38834095]Laws affect everyone. That's why they exist. They can fall out of general use however. Swords have fallen out of general use, as have bows and arrows.[/QUOTE] But a law is only as good as how it's enforced... Laws affect everyone, and yet crimes are committed. See what I'm getting at? Laws aren't going to stop people who have intent. I'm not trying to argue, just sort of relaying feeling.

[QUOTE=genkaz92;38834114]Because the current health of US society is poor, compared to many other parts of the world.[/QUOTE] So you are saying there were 9000 gun related homicides last year in the United States compared to France's 35 because of anything but gun related laws?

[video=youtube;_J9q9FSDvZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J9q9FSDvZc[/video] lol this was posted about an hour ago [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Alt of permabanned user Heavyartillery" - Craptasket))[/highlight]