DEVELOPING: Shooting reported at Connecticut elementary school; 27 killed - Polidicks

God damn it. Somebody's mad at society so he takes it out on kids by not even giving them a chance to make it better. Mannnnnnnnn.

[QUOTE=FreakyMe;38834770]That has to be the most fallacious argument I've read in a while. Killing people with explosives requires intent, prior planning, a knowledge of chemistry (generally unless you want your first project to be your last), and tons of sustained effort. Killing a lot of people with a knife requires more than a whim, sustained effort, and an effective method of attack. A garden trowel (*since you brought it up) requires fury, sustained long term effort, and a willingness to continue into one of the messiest murders you'll ever commit. Same goes for murdering someone with your bare hands. Killing a lot of people with a gun requires a whim, a gun, the ability to aim, and ammo. Nothing more. All I have to do is 'point and click', and I've either completed or partially completed the act of murder.[/QUOTE] I would not consider my argument to be fallacious, because you are making an incorrect distinction in effort between using a gun and using a different utility. Do you realize from a mental standpoint, how difficult it actually is to pull a trigger in order to commit something malicious? You appear to believe that you would only require a whim to kill someone with a gun, while in reality you would require just as much determination as you would with any other instrument. If using a gun only required a whim, then it would be appropriate to assume that we would be seeing a lot more people shooting themselves in the head, simply because they had a bad day, or an immensely larger amount of shootings than we have observed so far. The physical effort of a murder is the easiest possible part, the difficult part is actually doing it mentally, which is the same regardless of how you are interested in manifesting it. When you are pumping with adrenaline, or perhaps psychotic excitement, towards the interest of killing someone, the challenge of sustained effort presents only a miniscule obstacle, just as miniscule as pulling the trigger.

[QUOTE=faze;38834762][URL]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57559350/connecticut-gunman-sought-to-kill-as-many-children-as-possible/[/URL] He also stole his dead mom's car.[/QUOTE] I've heard he shot his mom in the school, and I've heard he shot her at home. But then again, I've heard 3 different body counts, that his brother was captured by the cops, that his brother was dead, that his brother's identity was stolen, that's his brother is at work and not the shooter, that he was the parent of a student, that he was the child of a staff member. I'm just going to leave and check back in a day or two when the facts are settled down.

[QUOTE=genkaz92;38834903]I would not consider my argument to be fallacious, because you are making an incorrect distinction in effort between using a gun and using a different utility. Do you realize from a mental standpoint, how difficult it actually is to pull a trigger in order to commit something malicious? You appear to believe that you would only require a whim to kill someone with a gun, while in reality you would require just as much determination as you would with any other instrument. If using a gun only required a whim, then it would be appropriate to assume that we would be seeing a lot more people shooting themselves in the head, simply because they had a bad day, or an immensely larger amount of shootings than we have observed so far. The physical effort of a murder is the easiest possible part, the difficult part is actually doing it mentally, which is the same regardless of how you are interested in manifesting it. When you are pumping with adrenaline, or perhaps psychotic excitement, towards the interest of killing someone, the challenge of sustained effort presents only a miniscule obstacle.[/QUOTE] You seem to misinterpret what I said. It only requires a whim in that it requires one motion. From picking up the gun, to aiming it, to pressing the little button on the front we call a trigger, you have gone from contemplation, to action, to completing the act of murder in what is infinitely easier than other methods. Yes, for the normal person it may require a lot of chutzpah to pull that trigger, but I am talking about the mentally ill or deranged.

[QUOTE=FreakyMe;38834937]You seem to misinterpret what I said. It only requires a whim in that it requires one motion. From picking up the gun, to aiming it, to pressing the little button on the front we call a trigger, you have gone from contemplation, to action, to completing the act of murder in what is infinitely easier than other methods. Yes, for the normal person it may require a lot of chutzpah to pull that trigger, but I am talking about the mentally ill or deranged.[/QUOTE] It takes no more effort to aim and shoot a gun than it does to stab a knife into someone.

[QUOTE=Ridge;38834915]I've heard he shot his mom in the school, and I've heard he shot her at home. But then again, I've heard 3 different body counts, that his brother was captured by the cops, that his brother was dead, that his brother's identity was stolen, that's his brother is at work and not the shooter, that he was the parent of a student, that he was the child of a staff member. I'm just going to leave and check back in a day or two when the facts are settled down.[/QUOTE] Meh good idea. But the nature of this crime, I can't unglue myself from it.

I would also argue that repeatedly stabbing someone is nowhere near as miniscule as pulling the trigger. First of all, you have to catch them by running after them. You have to cut them (enough) so they can't run or fight back. While using your knife to commit murder in a mass-situation, you have to kill the person you are targeting while fending off possible assailants. People aren't going to run and scatter as much when you are swinging a knife - they are more prone to pick up chairs, desks, and whatever else in an attempt to ram you into a corner. You can't point a knife from 20 feet away and take somebody down who is running from you, nor can you use it to prevent them from charging you at a distance. Your knife won't surpress people down the hall, nor will it be as likely to give people traumatic wound shock the instant you've stabbed them or completely destroy all of the tissue around the wound site, as a bullet is known to do. Even then, while you are stabbing someone to death on the ground, someone can come up behind you and attempt to strangle you or incapacitate you, which is something you can't say about someone who is walking down the hall unloading with a rifle. [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DaCommie1;38834961]It takes no more effort to aim and shoot a gun than it does to stab a knife into someone.[/QUOTE] I said it took less, and you are arguing that it doesn't take more. It seems like we agree. [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] I mean god damn it, how can you read all of that and say it is as easy to kill with a knife as a gun?

ENOUGH with the guns discussion. Move it to Mass Debate, we're here to talk about the fact that twenty-seven people died and how tragic it is. This thread is beyond derailed.

[QUOTE=OrionChronicles;38835042]ENOUGH with the guns discussion. Move it to Mass Debate, we're here to talk about the fact that twenty-seven people died and how tragic it is. This thread is beyond derailed.[/QUOTE] Fair enough - I just felt I could not not reply to someone arguing that if we took away guns, that we'd have to take away knives and garden utensils and that the whole world would then starve.

[QUOTE=OrionChronicles;38835042]ENOUGH with the guns discussion. Move it to Mass Debate, we're here to talk about the fact that twenty-seven people died and how tragic it is. This thread is beyond derailed.[/QUOTE] It's fucking inevitable.

[QUOTE=elevate;38835063]It's fucking inevitable.[/QUOTE] then take it out of here at least if you're going to

[QUOTE=OrionChronicles;38835042]ENOUGH with the guns discussion. Move it to Mass Debate, we're here to talk about the fact that twenty-seven people died and how tragic it is. This thread is beyond derailed.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=verynicelady;38833436]It's perfectly fine to mention your opinions on gun control since it's highly relevant to the news story. If people descend into name calling and personalities they will be probably be banned, otherwise feel free.[/QUOTE]

I live pretty close to where this happened. It really just sucks.

I really don't get what the deal is with people raging over a gun control debate happening in a thread where guns were used to massacre people. I made quite a few posts saying how this country needs better mental healthcare using this incident as an example and nobody told me to shut the fuck up and take it to mass debate, but when suddenly gun rights are involved people just get incensed.

[QUOTE=FreakyMe;38834977]I would also argue that repeatedly stabbing someone is nowhere near as miniscule as pulling the trigger. First of all, you have to catch them. You have to cut them so they can't run. While using your knife to commit murder in a mass-situation, you have to kill the person you are targeting while fending off possible assailants. People aren't going to run and scatter as much when you are swinging a knife - they are more prone to pick up chairs, desks, and whatever else in an attempt to ram you into a corner. You can't point a knife from 20 feet away and take somebody down who is running from you, nor can you use it to prevent them from charging you at a distance. [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] I said it took less, and you are arguing that it doesn't take more. It seems like we agree.[/QUOTE] Personally I was under the impression that we were still discussing common citizens. It would be silly for me to deny that guns are not more effective than other tools, my argument was not about that specifically. My argument was instead about the fact of why distributing guns to everyone, would not make the situation any more dangerous than it currently is from the perspective of such a society turning into a warzone, because the mental difficulty of committing anything malicious with your firearm, would be just as difficult, if not significantly more difficult than today, especially considering the factor of everyone else having the opportunity of defending themselves against you.

[QUOTE=FreakyMe;38835057]Fair enough - I just felt I could not not reply to someone arguing that if we took away guns, that we'd have to take away knives and garden utensils and that the whole world would then starve.[/QUOTE] You appeared to have misinterpreted my argument as well, it is entirely possible that we may be in violent agreement.

[QUOTE=The golden;38835153]Every other S-headlines threat has some sort of relevant debate over whatever the thread is about. The same thing is happening here yet for some reason a bunch of you are telling us to take our debates to Mass-Debate despite having moderation approval. I can't help but feel that we are hitting some nerves here. I'm alright with that.[/QUOTE] nerves on what?

[QUOTE=FreakyMe;38834977]I would also argue that repeatedly stabbing someone is nowhere near as miniscule as pulling the trigger. First of all, you have to catch them by running after them. You have to cut them (enough) so they can't run or fight back. While using your knife to commit murder in a mass-situation, you have to kill the person you are targeting while fending off possible assailants. People aren't going to run and scatter as much when you are swinging a knife - they are more prone to pick up chairs, desks, and whatever else in an attempt to ram you into a corner. You can't point a knife from 20 feet away and take somebody down who is running from you, nor can you use it to prevent them from charging you at a distance. Your knife won't surpress people down the hall, nor will it be as likely to give people traumatic wound shock the instant you've stabbed them or completely destroy all of the tissue around the wound site, as a bullet is known to do. Even then, while you are stabbing someone to death on the ground, someone can come up behind you and attempt to strangle you or incapacitate you, which is something you can't say about someone who is walking down the hall unloading with a rifle. [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] I said it took less, and you are arguing that it doesn't take more. It seems like we agree. [editline]14th December 2012[/editline] I mean god damn it, how can you read all of that and say it is as easy to kill with a knife as a gun?[/QUOTE] None of the top part of your statement applies to a group of terrified children, they can't fight back, and they're going to be scared as hell. A full-grown adult can also run faster than children. As for the bottom, because it is just as easy, you hit them in a vital area and they die, you hit them outside of a vital area and they can live. People have survived multiple shootings and they've survived multiple stabbings. As for the trauma argument, look up a gut hook. A very popular feature on hunting knives, if someone puts a knife with a gut hook in you, twists it a bit, and pulls it out, it's going to do a hell of a lot of damage. A knife, like a bullet, just needs to hit the right area, and you can corner people and scare them with a knife just like you can with a gun, and if someone lunges at a guy with a knife, he can slash and stab them to deter them attacking him.

This has been posted before (although not this exact image). I'm just putting it back up for consistency. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/SqnFE.jpg[/IMG]

Well, I've read some valid arguments that more gun control wouldn't really stop things like this from happening. Same goes for trying to stop mental illness from happening since we don't really have ways of curing that. The only alternative solution I can think of to prevent school shootings like these is to enforce more defense systems like security gates and limited entrances into public schools. Keep all the gates locked once school time has commenced. It sucks that it has to be that way, but I think there needs to be more protection for the kids.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38835175]None of the top part of your statement applies to a group of terrified children, they can't fight back, and they're going to be scared as hell. A full-grown adult can also run faster than children. As for the bottom, because it is just as easy, you hit them in a vital area and they die, you hit them outside of a vital area and they can live. People have survived multiple shootings and they've survived multiple stabbings. As for the trauma argument, look up a gut hook. A very popular feature on hunting knives, if someone puts a knife with a gut hook in you, twists it a bit, and pulls it out, it's going to do a hell of a lot of damage. A knife, like a bullet, just needs to hit the right area, and you can corner people and scare them with a knife just like you can with a gun, and if someone lunges at a guy with a knife, he can slash and stab them to deter them attacking him.[/QUOTE] I was going to mention that as well, with basic practice, it is possible to inflict ridiculous amounts of damage with a knife extremely quickly, across large numbers of people, not to argue that it gives you validity to bring a knife to a gun fight.

[QUOTE=jaykray;38835208]Sorry, I posted something that had already been posted. I don't have anything else to contribute.[/QUOTE] what a dickhead bunch of opinions those commenters are posting it's like saying 'he liked marmite ban marmite'

[QUOTE=genkaz92;38835152]Personally I was under the impression that we were still discussing common citizens. It would be silly for me to deny that guns are not more effective than other tools, my argument was not about that specifically. My argument was instead about the fact of why distributing guns to everyone, would not make the situation any more dangerous than it currently is from the perspective of such a society turning into a warzone, because the mental difficulty of committing anything malicious with your firearm, would be just as difficult, if not significantly more difficult than today, especially considering the factor of everyone else having the opportunity of defending themselves against you.[/QUOTE] It is mentally difficult, but all it takes is a mental slip. We are all prone to those. We all lose touch with reality and our sense of empathy in response to stress, trauma, and many other common life factors that come from living in the 21st century. All it takes is a few seconds of not comprehending consequences, and a normal person with a firearm could commit murder. The same could not be said about the people with other weapons. If we are talking about 'common citizens' then all those guns would do is bounce on their hips and in their purses while they run like hell from the shooting. Others, emboldened by their firearms, would shoot back. So, instead of everyone running, you've got some turning to shoot at the attacker, sending lead slugs at several hundred feet per second through the air in a slight parabola until it impacts flesh or inanimate material. This is while EVERYONE ELSE IS RUNNING AND LOSING THEIR SHIT. So bullets flying from several directions instead of one, everyone who is 'normal' having some bias to 'shoot to miss' as many soldiers do, so a lot of unaimed ammunition going in multiple directions with people freaking the fuck out all around. Sounds optimal as all hell. It's not that it would degenerate into a warzone due to the presence of firearms, but chaos would grow exponentially in crisis situations in the wake of everybody being armed.

[QUOTE=ThePanther;38835224]Well, I've read some valid arguments that more gun control wouldn't really stop things like this from happening. Same goes for trying to stop mental illness from happening since we don't really have ways of curing that. The only alternative solution I can think of to prevent school shootings like these is to enforce more defense systems like security gates and limited entrances into public schools. Keep all the gates locked once school time has commenced. It sucks that it has to be that way, but I think there needs to be more protection for the kids.[/QUOTE] The main priority right now, in my opinion, should be the improvement of social health itself.

[QUOTE=Maloof?;38835234]what a dickhead bunch of opinions those commenters are posting it's like saying 'he liked marmite ban marmite'[/QUOTE] Should I put the picture back up?

[video=youtube;TCb4V7wI9M0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCb4V7wI9M0[/video] EXCLUSIVE: I CATCH THE KILLER ON CAMERA

[QUOTE=jaykray;38835290]Should I put the picture back up?[/QUOTE] Oh if you want; I dont' mind either way haha This thread is pretty busy and I wasn't really contributing to any grand conversation so it's not a big deal When did quotes start auto-updating for edits though?

[QUOTE=Maloof?;38835304]Oh if you want; I dont' mind either way haha This thread is pretty busy and I wasn't really contributing to any grand conversation so it's not a big deal When did quotes start auto-updating for edits though?[/QUOTE] It happens when someone makes an edit fast enough to not mark the post as edited.

This is fucking terrible

[QUOTE=mr kjerr;38835297][video=youtube;TCb4V7wI9M0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCb4V7wI9M0[/video] EXCLUSIVE: I CATCH THE KILLER ON CAMERA[/QUOTE] Haha stop you're killing me. Like actually stop.